Is 'Western' Buddhism too Liberal?

[ratikala]

A monk told me that Buddhism is "fall down six times, get up seven."

agreed , but that dosent justify accidentaly falling in the offlicence again on the way home , because one can allways re afirm ones committments in the morning ! ....there has to come a point when we tire of this repetitious game

 

[Secret Chief]

Ratikala,
I do appreciate your sentiments. I do believe we all crave\attach. It's the human tendency. It can be alcohol, heroin, shopping, sex, power, love, chocolate...

Minor technical point: I like a nice beer not to relax, not to lose mindfulness, but because...I like it as a drink...

 

[ratikala]

namaste

Just an outside comment about coffee. I drink it, because it tastes good to me; but for meditation practice I recommend infrequent use. See this interesting and helpful article: BBC News - Unexpected ways to wake up your brain

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29817519

does it say anything about learning to breate properly ? I find that perfectly sufficient to wake my self when feeling a little drowsy ?

Regular use of coffee is not I think ideal for meditation, although occasional use should be beneficial. Also if you desire a caffeine boost consider a strong green tea instead of coffee, because it doesn't cause anxiety like coffee does.

only because the amount of caffine in tea is substantialy less than in coffee , ...serious meditators never touch either , I am not saying that those that take cafine are not serious about their meditation , I am sure that they are but for instance in the yogic diet many foods are recomended against due to the fact that they disturb ones ballance and hinder meditation .

 

[ratikala]

Ratikala,
I do appreciate your sentiments. I do believe we all crave\attach. It's the human tendency. It can be alcohol, heroin, shopping, sex, power, love, chocolate...

Minor technical point: I like a nice beer not to relax, not to lose mindfulness, but because...I like it as a drink...

this is your choice and you are free to do what you will , and the level of commitment is yours to choose , but speaking honestly how many times have you drunk more than you should because you like the taste , then had a minor regret the next day ?

how many times has your mindfullnes sliped and you have said or done something that you would not have done were it not for the fact that you had had a nice little drink ?

I am not for on moment sugesting that you are an evil or raucus drunk , just wondering about your honest thoughts about drink looking at both sides of the coin ?

 

[Secret Chief]

Honest answers. Not at all in 30 years. That's nothing to do with Buddhism. I have literally one or two drinks on occasion. Over the years, my frequent, stupid mindlessness has had nothing to do with alcohol.

 

[Brickjectivity]

only because the amount of caffine in tea is substantialy less than in coffee

I'm not an expert, but it also contains a natural substance called L-theanine which coffee does not have. Many say that accounts for its calming affect and that the L-theanine counteracts the jitters of the caffeine in the plant. Probably the calmness is why tea is highly valued. I had strong green tea once, not the stuff from a tea bag but real Chinese green tea, and it was very calming. It made me want to read. I found its effects to be different from coffee, so they are two different things.

On the topic: I don't know whether Buddhism is liberal or not and am barely educated about it. Good luck to you Buddhists figuring out the answer to this question! Modern Buddhists exist in a miasma of overflowing information. You swim in data. Increasingly people have no use for chopped wood, and they have plumbed water. There is so much more information required today. You cannot live without learning many concepts that didn't exist in Buddha's lifetime.

 

[von bek]

In regards to politics, I believe both conservatives and liberals have found a home in the western sangha. The Buddha warns against monks becoming directly involved with what kings and ministers do. Monks and nuns are not called to be political actors. But, in a democracy the people can vote. When you vote, it is impossible to leave your religious beliefs out of the booth, they are influencing your decision. We all have beliefs that are a consequence of our religious convictions. What some may take is an overriding commitment to protect traditions and an opposition to any measure that may lead to a shaking of the established order. Someone else may take away the view that in order to address the suffering present in society, economic justice needs to be prioritized. You see these two poles present within American Christianity, too. Some Christians believe the most important contribution of the Church is to oppose abortion while others believe that the church should be focused on protecting immigrants. Both groups start with the same religion but end up with different political beliefs because of where they believe the emphasis should lie. (In the above example of American Christianity I think we could look at the debate being between whether the emphasis is on "moral purity" or "social justice.")

 

[Secret Chief]

The Buddha suggested noninvolvement with politics and yet he accepted the longterm patronage of a well dodgy character in order to have a stable base for himself and his sangha. That's playing politics: accepting a lesser evil for a greater long term gain.

 

[von bek]

Meant to respond to this yesterday but forgot:

namaskaram von bek ji



Hee Hee , ... then better not get mad at any one

yes yes , I agree if one falls down get back up and reafirm ones commitments , ....but madness happens as an acidental reaction , no one goes out to get mad , it is a lapse of control , ...where upon we generaly vow to be more mindfull in future ,

....however falling into the off licence and buying a beer is hardly an acidental responce ...?

Anger is not an accidental reaction. It is a conditioned response to sensory stimuli that has been strengthened by its frequent arising. You can recondition your mind so it does not react the same in the future when similar stimuli arise.

There are no accidents, neither is there blind fate. "Conditioned by ignorance; mental formations arise... conditioned by birth; sickness, old age, death and suffering arise."

Getting angry may be the most harmful thing that can happen to our mind. In fact, the Buddha warns us that we should fear no man, no god, no ghost, no demon; what we should fear most in this world is our own anger.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram von bek ji

Meant to respond to this yesterday but forgot:


Anger is not an accidental reaction. It is a conditioned response to sensory stimuli that has been strengthened by its frequent arising. You can recondition your mind so it does not react the same in the future when similar stimuli arise.

this is where words can come in between us and understanding if we let them ,

then depending upon ones level of control one can become angry or one can not become angry , ....(this is called choice and we need to be some what determined , but it is possible to exercise such)

then the poor angry man upon realising the Error of his ways appologises and says ....''sorry that I accidentaly got angry ''

in which case he means that it was not his intention to become angry ....

There are no accidents, neither is there blind fate. "Conditioned by ignorance; mental formations arise... conditioned by birth; sickness, old age, death and suffering arise."

of course there is accident it is something one does not intend to do ? ....Accident , lapse of control what ever you care to call it .....

ok , if it helps you to call it an conditioned responce , then call it what you like , ...

but sooner or later there comes a time when the angry man says ''I am not going to do this any more'' , ...that is a vow , a resolve , ...and sometimes he slips up , falls down , accidentaly lapses , he then picks him self up and makes a new resolve .....

Getting angry may be the most harmful thing that can happen to our mind. In fact, the Buddha warns us that we should fear no man, no god, no ghost, no demon; what we should fear most in this world is our own anger.

exactly ...Hee Hee , ... that I why I said ''then better not get mad at any one '' ...its a joke !.... and the best way of not Accidentaly falling into the trap of reacting uncontrolably ....
is to laugh at the futility of it , ....

 

[von bek]

ok , if it helps you to call it an conditioned responce , then call it what you like , ...

I'm not calling it what I like, I'm calling it what it is. Dependent origination is the bedrock that Buddhist understandings about experience and existence are built upon. It is not a minor matter to point out that there is an understandable cause for every emotion you experience. It is just because we can understand these causes that we are able to find the solution. It is by understanding the cause that you see that no God directs the process, nor are the events that happen random or accidental. If I have a short temper and place a big emphasis on keeping my house in perfect condition, it is no accident that I get unreasonably angry at a neighborhood kid for inadvertently breaking one of my windows with a baseball.

You can be sorry that you got angry. That is regret. That does not mean the anger itself was accidental.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

I'm not calling it what I like, I'm calling it what it is. Dependent origination is the bedrock that Buddhist understandings about experience and existence are built upon. It is not a minor matter to point out that there is an understandable cause for every emotion you experience. It is just because we can understand these causes that we are able to find the solution. It is by understanding the cause that you see that no God directs the process, nor are the events that happen random or accidental. If I have a short temper and place a big emphasis on keeping my house in perfect condition, it is no accident that I get unreasonably angry at a neighborhood kid for inadvertently breaking one of my windows with a baseball.

You can be sorry that you got angry. That is regret. That does not mean the anger itself was accidental.

unfortunatly I think you are missing my point , this is begining to sound like the sort of argment over nothing that there is no point persuing ...yes there is an understandable cause for every emotion , ...with this I agree

but sadly this silly conversation seems to have started over the question of laxity , ....

to illustrate a point which I wish to make I make light and use words humerously , it seems you miss the small joke ?

ok now I am being serious .......

I do not undersand how many westerners can justify breaking precepts then just re talking them , wouldnt it be better not to take tham in the first palce ???

If anyone wishes to drink fine do it , but to me drinking or drug use even if it were totaly controled is going against the Eight fold path it breaks 'right action' as it supports 'wrong livelihood' in others , and allthough your own drinking and drug use may be controled it is supporting a system which causes harm and suffering to others, ..therefore however mild ones usage is one who supports the industries which supply either the beer or the dope is implicated in the suffering of others , ...so it depends who you are practicing for ? ..the self , or for the equal benifit of all ?


it is not a question of dependent arrising , the initial question was is western Buddhism too liberal ? ....to me the answer is yes unfortunatly I do ! I think that one failing in the west is the tendancy to cling to doctrine but not to give enough empasis to the day to day practice , however on the other hand there are there are many folk who practice very nicely ...presonaly I dont like the interlectualisation that comes with the tag Western Buddhism , ..I dont like the selectivism , ...but there you are that is just my oppinion .

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm not sure how the separation into "east" and "west" can be maintained in this matter, in light of such examples already given viz Burmese smoking tobacco, Japanese selling alcohol...

East and west are relatives.There is but one planet Earth.

 

[von bek]

There also is a lot more to liberalism than a stance on alcohol or drugs. There are environmental concerns, economic justice, homelessness and immigration, prison system, privacy rights, food safety standards, infrastructure, war, and...

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not sure how the separation into "east" and "west" can be maintained in this matter, in light of such examples already given viz Burmese smoking tobacco, Japanese selling alcohol...

East and west are relatives.There is but one planet Earth.

....and aren't the various sects of Darma extremely different already? How is it they are grouped together to be compared with the West? You'd have to saw off their arms and legs to make them uniform, first.

 

[von bek]

I want to make it clear that I do not advocate drug use as a means for improving meditation or any such purpose. Dropping acid can be an ego destroying experience; but, it is not a means for realizing nibbana. Getting high or drunk makes it more difficult to engage in vipassana, if not downright impossible. Defending these kinds of ideas has not been my intent, in case anyone thinks that is a position I may hold.

 

[Ablaze]

It may be helpful to make the distinction between practicing Buddhists (who undertake the precepts, meditate, and perform other practices advocated by the Buddha) and non-practicing Buddhists (who don't engage in Buddhist practice, but may subscribe to essential tenets of Buddhist philosophy, or are Buddhist by name alone). The former is a practitioner, and the latter more of an arm-chair philosopher who picks and chooses which parts of the Buddhist teachings they like, often to the neglect of the Buddhist path.

With that said, drug and alcohol use, in any quantity, are fundamentally incompatible with the Buddha's teachings, both practically and philosophically. The fifth of the five fundamental precepts observed (willingly) by devout practicing Buddhists (who take the teachings of the Buddha seriously) is to abstain from intoxicants altogether, not just from becoming intoxicated. In other words, a serious Buddhist practitioner abstains from drugs/alcohol and makes a sincere effort to avoid indulging in craving. A non-practicing Buddhist (if they are at all familiar with the Buddha's teachings) at least acknowledges that intoxicants are an impediment to clear seeing (according to the Buddha's teachings), regardless of whether they agree or disagree, or whether they are conscious of the effects or not.

However, I would not automatically associate drug/alcohol use with liberalism. That would be conflating liberalism with hedonism, an extremely common but blatantly inaccurate association that does not do justice to either.

 

[Secret Chief]

So which one is a monk who sells alcohol or smokes tobacco?

 

[Marcion]

I think western culture on a personal level is generally cruder (e.g. the habit of eating meat and drinking alcohol) and has become more crude compared to eastern cultures. This has worsened under the influence of capitalism and the gradual loss of religious practices since the world wars.
But this crudeness has more to do with personal life style than with general behaviour towards others such as in the presence of less corruption, better laws, better healthcare, better education and more material solidarity (basic human rights are embraced more easily in the west).

So this crudeness or relative looseness in personal life style is a part of modern western culture.
When new buddhist movements are started in the West, these will mostly adopt part of this crudeness because they don't understand the reasons for avoiding it. There is even one western buddhist movement that promotes gay sex and knows no restrictions on sexual behaviour.

Buddha taught his bikkhu's to carefully guard their minds by strictly controlling their senses and thoughts. This important teaching is neglected in such western buddhist movements. So I think that yes, western buddhist have become too liberal, too loose in their practices.
But it doesn't worry me, because many western people are generally quite rational and progressive in their thinking, so in the future surely new branches will be formed that are more strict, perhaps even more strict than strict buddhists outside the west are now.
Most buddhist e.g. don't yet seem realize that coffee, black tea, cocoa, onions, leeks and garlic have a crudifying effect on the mind. They don't yet notice the effects and don't realize how much easier their practices would become if they avoided such items.

 

[Secret Chief]

Should Westerners follow the less crude diet of eating dogs and cats?