Is Van Jones still a Communist?

[sputnik323]

Cuba? are you all high? You can turn around meaningless statistics all day long. There isn't an influx of refugees from the USA going to Cuba... but the opposite is true. Living under tyranny can still allow for the basic necessities of life (and riches if you are in the ruling party), but most people want freedom. The problem with communism isn't that it is not a viable economic system, but that people's choices become extremely limited by the power of government. Greed enters any system, there were/are extremely wealthy communists in Russia, China, and Cuba. The theory of communism (which seems really good) has never played out in history according to the theory.

 

[Alceste]

The correct term for people who move voluntarily from one country to another is "immigrants", not "refugees".

 

[sputnik323]

The correct term for people who move voluntarily from one country to another is "immigrants", not "refugees".

Voluntarily implies they can just hop on a train, plane, without political penalty. They are not allowed to leave and are thus "political refugees." Immigrants are like people coming from Mexico being illegal or legal immigrants. People from Cuba are asking for asylum to come to the US. So I stand by my statement that they are refugees.

 

[Alceste]

Cubans move to the US because they want to make more money. "Refugee" implies they are fleeing from political repression or physical danger.

BTW, since the collapse of the US economy has begun and Raul Castro took over, emigration from Cuba has dropped by half.

 

[sputnik323]

Cubans move to the US because they want to make more money. "Refugee" implies they are fleeing from political repression or physical danger.

Could you explain why this point is so important for you to distinguish between refugee and immigrant? Is this all about political correctness? Also it would be nice if you would at least address some points I discussed earlier. I will try and break it down.

One can be both an immigrant and a refugee, like the Cubans. The dictionary says, immigrant - a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.

There still gross gross violations in Cuba and one of the main problems with Cuba and the United States is the human rights violations (look it up)
... not that they believe and follow Communism (which being allied with the Soviet Union was the problem of the past). There are persecutions, and so they are refugees.

Would you risk death and get on a rickety old raft just to make more money? They want a better life (all the facets of life not just money).

like I said before that you totally ignored. There is a reason Cubans are given asylum when they get here. Asylum is not given lightly. They are refugees! Immigrants from Mexico are not given asylum! People from Mexico are not considered refugees. I don't know how to be more simple than that.

Guess you better tell wiki that they have it wrong too...

Before the 1980s, all refugees from Cuba were welcomed into the United States as political refugees. This changed in the 1990s so that only Cubans who reach U.S. soil are granted refuge under the "wet feet, dry feet policy".

 

[Alceste]

I'm not responding to your "points" because you haven't made any. You're just repeating American anti-Communist propaganda. I live in Canada, so I have a different perspective. Cuba has been public enemy number one for the US ever since the revolution, and the American media has slandered them and spread misinformation about them for decades. It's understandable that your opinion is biased considering the context, but from an objective point of view the American perspective on Cuba is little more than self-congratulatory, nonsensical, pro-capitalist gibberish. "Communism is not a viable economic system" is meaningless. It isn't a "point". It doesn't merit serious attention.

 

[sputnik323]

I'm not responding to your "points" because you haven't made any. You're just repeating American anti-Communist propaganda. I live in Canada, so I have a different perspective. Cuba has been public enemy number one for the US ever since the revolution, and the American media has slandered them and spread misinformation about them for decades. It's understandable that your opinion is biased considering the context, but from an objective point of view the American perspective on Cuba is little more than self-congratulatory, nonsensical, pro-capitalist gibberish. "Communism is not a viable economic system" is meaningless. It isn't a "point". It doesn't merit serious attention.

WOW ... umm... I don't really know what to say. You are clearly the one unaware of your own bias and diluted your mental filter (claiming you have an objective point of view is the greatest evidence for this). You project your own way of unsound thinking onto others and claim it as their way of thinking. I confronted your arguments, not your personal bias.

I NEVER said "communism is not a viable economic system." Scroll up... it is a viable system, many still live in forms of communism! (its not about viability)

You aren't responding to points because you just dismiss any arguments that do not fit your view. That is a logical fallacy; you can't do a personal attack and have an reasonable argument. So I guess there is no more point in discussing the issue any further.
You obviously do not understand the definition of propaganda. You accuse me of repeating the "American perspective" (whatever that is - nice stereotyping btw) when all I did was stating instances that don't fit your view. Instead of responding, you ignore premises :ignore: and dismiss others point of view (because they don't fit your bias) then put forth your own view as reality. I'm glad you are proud of Canada and your different perspective - uniqueness does not equal validity.

At least next time you are going to respond to someone, please read their post correctly instead of misquoting them and dismiss them because they don't believe in your world view.

 

[Alceste]

Sorry, Sputnik, I misread - when people start a post with "ARE YOU HIGH!!!???" I tune out a little, I confess. Conversations with such people are never productive.

 

[sputnik323]

I apologize, asking "are you all high?" is over the top. I should have conveyed shock in a different way and I can see how that can close down conversation. Cuba is going through some changes and I think it is an important issue.

 

[Alceste]

I apologize, asking "are you all high?" is over the top. I should have conveyed shock in a different way and I can see how that can close down conversation. Cuba is going through some changes and I think it is an important issue.

OK, let's start over: Does Cuba have a poor record on human rights and civil liberties? Yes. Is it worse than the human rights record of numerous other Latin American countries that operate on a capitalist economic model? Is Castro worse than Pinochet, for example? No. So, can we conclude that communism, more than capitalism, requires the abuse of human rights? No.

I would like to see Cubans enjoy the benefits of freedom of movement, association and speech AND the benefits of zero homelessness, 100 % adult literacy, low infant mortality, universal access to adequate nutrition, free university education and all the other perks of a socialist economic model. I don't see why they can't have both. I think communism goes too far in prohibiting private property and enterprise, and a healthy balance of socialism and capitalism (i.e. Scandanavia) is the most effective.