Is Trinity in the Bible?

[Ody]

It all depends on your definition of bible

 

[Longwindedpreacher]

What is a Testament?
What is a Covenant?
What is a Will?
What is an Inheritance?
What is a promise?

You'll find that the answer to all of these questions is contained in the answer of the first question. What is a Testament? I know that you believe in God. And I am not presuming to know it all, trust me I dont. But I think that I can help you and others in the expounding of the question I just posted. SO...... Testament-A written document providing for the disposition of a person's property after death; a will.
1 a archaic : a covenant between God and the human race b capitalized : either of two main divisions of the Bible
2 a : a tangible proof or tribute b : an expression of conviction
3 a : an act by which a person determines the disposition of his or her property after death b : [size=-1]WILL[/size]
So back to me again. You said that Yah the Father made promises with men; David, Adam, Noah, and Abraham. What is the difference between a covenant and a testament? Is there a difference? Above is the definition of a Testament. Here is the meaning on a covenant.
1 : a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement : [size=-1]COMPACT[/size]
2 a : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action b : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract
My point is that a covenant is an agreement or one of Gods many "if then" statements. IF you do this, THEN I'll do that.You'll find that there are conditions that God makes upon fulfilling his word to us. 2 Chron 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
There. God Loves you and May he lead you into all truth. Thankyou BYE. Oh bye the Way Jesus is the ALMIGHTY GOD, "through whom he made the worlds" the man was born but not the mind of God. The man possesed the mind of your Yah. SO when he died the promise that was made to Isaiah and Ezekial, and Joel came to pass when this man named Jesus died. Jesus was a manifestation of the Yah that is in the OLD T. Yah is a spirit, and that spirit has a mind. So if the fullness of the spirit was in the man Christ Jesus, then that would make him say that the father is in me and I in him. And he could say of a truth "I am the Good SHepherd" or I am the First and the Last. Not that the body that God indwelled existed before time, but the mind was totally in him as his ministry took place. "Through whom he made the worlds" is found in First Heb. Youll also see that the man was made. Again the mind that was in Jesus, is the Mind of God. SO theefore Jesus is God. If you want to know more my email address is [email protected] email me to understand what I believe if you want to know how others view the Holy Scriptures. Thanks bye.

 

[Quiddity]

I believe that the trinity is not at all in the Bible, but was made at the council of Nicea(spelling?).

tisk tisk....:tsk:

Origen, First Principles, 4:28 (A.D. 230)
"[T]he statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages."

Athenagoras of Athens (c. 180 A.D.)

"The Son of God is the Word of the Father, in thought and in actuality. BY HIM AND THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE, the Father and the Son BEING ONE. Since the Son is IN the Father and the Father is IN the Son BY THE UNITY AND POWER OF THE SPIRIT, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by 'the Son', I will tell you briefly: He is the First-begotten of the Father, NOT AS HAVING BEEN PRODUCED -- FOR FROM THE BEGINNING GOD HAD THE WORD IN HIMSELF... Who, then, would not be astonished to hear those called atheists, who speak of GOD THE FATHER AND OF GOD THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and who proclaim THEIR power in UNION and THEIR distinction in order...Just as we assert that there is a God, and a Son who is His Word, and a Holy Spirit, UNITED IN POWER -- THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE SPIRIT...."

Supplication for the Christians 10, 24; Jurgens, p. 70

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 140 - 202 A.D.)

"We hold, however, the rule of truth, according to which there is ONE ALMIGHTY GOD, who formed ALL things through His Word, and fashioned and made ALL things which exist out of that which did not exist; in which regard the Scripture says: 'For by the Word of the Lord were the heavens established, and all their strength by the Spirit of his mouth' [Psalm 33:6]. And again, 'All things were made through Him, and WITHOUT HIM WAS MADE NOTHING' [John 1:3]. From ALL, however, THERE IS NO EXCEPTION [that would include the SON]; and the Father made ALL things through Him, whether visible or invisible, whether of sense or of intelligence, whether temporal and for a certain dispensation or eternal and through the ages." (1:22:1)

excerpts from AGAINST HERESIES; Jurgens, p. 84-104

Now tell me, when was the Council of Nicea?
Councils of 300's for $1000 please.....

 

[wmam]

Thanks bye.

Your welcome......... bye.

 

[wmam]

Question........ Seriously..... What does it really matter? I mean why does it matter whether there is a trinity or not? What difference does it make whether there is a trinity or not? The word trinity is not to be found in any of the books of the Scriptures and yet man has puzzled the masses with its reckoning of something that he himself has dreamed up. Yahshua Ha Mashiach Ben Dawid never spoke of any trinity or surely it would have been written down somewhere and been so in a way that would have been plainly understood by all, if in fact it was of any importance. What did Yahshua say that we must do if we choose life? It doesn't have anything to do with answering correctly the question of the trinity.

 

[dawny0826]

Question........ Seriously..... What does it really matter? I mean why does it matter whether there is a trinity or not? What difference does it make whether there is a trinity or not? The word trinity is not to be found in any of the books of the Scriptures and yet man has puzzled the masses with its reckoning of something that he himself has dreamed up. Yahshua Ha Mashiach Ben Dawid never spoke of any trinity or surely it would have been written down somewhere and been so in a way that would have been plainly understood by all, if in fact it was of any importance. What did Yahshua say that we must do if we choose life? It doesn't have anything to do with answering correctly the question of the trinity.

Well, I believe very much in the Trinity. I think it's true though that if you choose Christ...you've chosen life. And if you've accepted Christ's sacrifice for your sins and you love and obey God...well...then...I guess in that light it doesn't matter whether or not you've answered the Trinity question correctly.

I have one question though...what are your views on the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Not to debate...I'm just curious.

Blessings to you.

 

[Scott1]

Question........ Seriously..... What does it really matter? I mean why does it matter whether there is a trinity or not? What difference does it make whether there is a trinity or not?

It makes a pretty big difference to me if Jesus was really divine... or just a holy man.

A holy man is pretty cool to learn from, but could not take away the sins of the world ---- in other words, Christianity goes down the crapper.

... but you are right, the "word" Trinity is not in the Bible... so how would you explain it?

 

[wmam]

Well, I believe very much in the Trinity. I think it's true though that if you choose Christ...you've chosen life. And if you've accepted Christ's sacrifice for your sins and you love and obey God...well...then...I guess in that light it doesn't matter whether or not you've answered the Trinity question correctly.

With setting aside the differences we have in the names we choose to call YAH our Elohim, and His Son Yahshua Ha Mashiach, I agree with your assessment but this is not what I asked. I asked what Yahshua said if we choose life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I have one question though...what are your views on the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Not to debate...I'm just curious.

Blessings to you.

I believe in the Malakhim and that it rest on us to comfort us and show us the correct path. Guide us to the will of YAH. As happened to Yahshua Ha Mashiach........

Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

 

[wmam]

It makes a pretty big difference to me if Jesus was really divine... or just a holy man.

A holy man is pretty cool to learn from, but could not take away the sins of the world ---- in other words, Christianity goes down the crapper.

... but you are right, the "word" Trinity is not in the Bible... so how would you explain it?

According to your definition of "divine"..... I do not believe that Yahshua is Elohim. I have stated this over and over and over in just about every thread I have ever posted in here. I do not believe in the trinity. I believe as the Scripture plainly states that there is only one Elohim and the Son sits at the right hand of the Father YAH our Elohim. To me, Yahshua is higher than the angels but lower than YAH...... I believe that Yahshua was given this duty by our Father YAH our Elohim. He made Him the sacrificial lamb for the sins of trespass. He, Yahshua, had no power in and of Himself to do anything that wasn't granted and given by our Father YAH. As Yahshua said that .........

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

It is the will of YAH our Elohim that His Son died for us.

 

[Scott1]

According to your definition of "divine"..... I do not believe that Yahshua is Elohim.

Jesus is not God... got it.

Sooooo... was Jesus just a man with "special powers" to carry out the duty to become the "lamb for the sins of trespass".. or what?

As Yahshua said that .........

Let's get past this first question, then I'll understand better by your answer why I should believe anything this "Yahshua" fellow might have said.

 

[dawny0826]

wmam,
I Know...I was more commenting than answering. :bonk:

You posted very nice scripture. I interpret verse 17 as Jesus humbling himself to make a point. He's counseling a young ruler who is very rich and very selfish. This individual is asking Jesus how he is to obtain eternal life. So, Jesus is answering this man on an individual level. Jesus advises the man to keep God's commandments and then advises the young man to...in verses 21 and 22...

"Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven: and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possession."

Summary of verses 16-22 in Matthew Chapter 19...the young man that Jesus was talking to was too selfish to give up his riches to follow Christ. When I read the entire context of these verses, I don't see verse 17...as an instruction to all mankind so much as an individual statement made to one very selfish man that Jesus was counseling.

This just shows how two different people can interpret the very same verse a bit differently. I guess it doesn't make either one of us "right". It's just interesting to see how people view things differently.

Here's my answer to your actual question...

I asked what Yahshua said if we choose life?

When you ask what Jesus said when we choose life...my focus automatically goes to John 3:16.This is the promise to all who believe.

"For God so loved the World, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

When we choose life...we've chosen Christ...they key to everlasting life.

"Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life." John 6:47

From a "trinitarian" perspective, upon accepting Christ as your Saviour...you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who guides and directs.

"And I will pray the Father and He will you another Helper that He may abide with you forever- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14:16-18

I've enjoyed your posts. Thanks for sharing.

 

[wmam]

[/color]
Jesus is not God... got it.

Sooooo... was Jesus just a man with "special powers" to carry out the duty to become the "lamb for the sins of trespass".. or what?
Let's get past this first question, then I'll understand better by your answer why I should believe anything this "Yahshua" fellow might have said.

And here I thought all along that the Roman Catholics had already answered for themselves all these questions. Or is this an attempt to disprove others beliefs?

I wonder what the Scriptures say He was. He was the Son of YAH as are we all. But He was Yah's only begotten Son. Begotten meaning?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen Elohim at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Not withstanding what the above verse is saying that no man has seen Elohim but Elohim hath declared Yahshua.........

The word "begotten" in the Greek as translated here is..........

G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

but there are other places in the Gospels that use the word begotten with some different meaning but mostly the same.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Basically saying the same thing about Him being begotten but here it is under a different translation in the same language........

G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

and another from Rev. 1:5 is translated yet another way as......

G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).

But if we go into the Tanach we will find that the word "begotten" is yet translated differently yet many more times..........

Gen 5:4 translates "begotten as .........

H3205
ילד
yâlad
yaw-lad'
A primitive root; to bear young; causatively to beget; medically to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage: - bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

-and-

Lev 18:11 as...

H4138
מולדת
môledeth
mo-leh'-deth
From H3205; nativity (plural birth place); by implication lineage, native country; also offspring, family: - begotten, born, issue, kindred, native (-ity).

-and-

Jdg 8:30 as .......

H3318
יצא
yâtsâ'
yaw-tsaw'
A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: - X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.

So we have here somewhat different meanings of the same word used to translate into english many different trains of thought. How can we be so sure that the Greek translation is correct and didn't loose any meaning or understanding from the Hebrew or Aramaic?

I believe that Yahshua was a man that, as you said, carried out a duty to become, or prepare rather, to be the sacrificial lamb for our trespass sins. Why do I believe this? Why would He need to be Baptized and have the Spirit rest on Him if He was Elohim? And after the Spirit rested on Him He continued to pray to YAH the Father up in heaven. I think He a man with the powers bestowed on Him by YAH our Father and Elohim.

 

[wmam]

wmam,
I Know...I was more commenting than answering. :bonk:

You posted very nice scripture. I interpret verse 17 as Jesus humbling himself to make a point. He's counseling a young ruler who is very rich and very selfish. This individual is asking Jesus how he is to obtain eternal life. So, Jesus is answering this man on an individual level. Jesus advises the man to keep God's commandments and then advises the young man to...in verses 21 and 22...

"Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven: and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possession."

Summary of verses 16-22 in Matthew Chapter 19...the young man that Jesus was talking to was too selfish to give up his riches to follow Christ. When I read the entire context of these verses, I don't see verse 17...as an instruction to all mankind so much as an individual statement made to one very selfish man that Jesus was counseling.

This just shows how two different people can interpret the very same verse a bit differently. I guess it doesn't make either one of us "right". It's just interesting to see how people view things differently.

Here's my answer to your actual question...


When you ask what Jesus said when we choose life...my focus automatically goes to John 3:16.This is the promise to all who believe.

"For God so loved the World, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

When we choose life...we've chosen Christ...they key to everlasting life.

"Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life." John 6:47

From a "trinitarian" perspective, upon accepting Christ as your Saviour...you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who guides and directs.

"And I will pray the Father and He will you another Helper that He may abide with you forever- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." John 14:16-18

I've enjoyed your posts. Thanks for sharing.

Yes and thank you as I to have enjoyed your post and hope to continue even though we do see things very differently.

Shabbat Shalom

 

[wmam]

Oh Dawny0826,


I thought you might like this as well..........

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth Yahshua Ha Mashiach is born of Elohim: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we love Elohim, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of Elohim overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Yahshua is the Son of Elohim?

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Yahshua Ha Mashiach; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 

[Scott1]

And here I thought all along that the Roman Catholics had already answered for themselves all these questions. Or is this an attempt to disprove others beliefs?

I'm not "the Roman Catholics"... I am Scott.... and I'm not sure why my asking a few simple questions to learn about why you believe what you believe has you so concerned, but....

I wonder what the Scriptures say He was.

Thanks for the word study, but why should I believe a word of it?

Isnt it just a book written by men about a man, right?

Ooooh, by the way, please help me out: do any of those translations mean "created"?

I believe that Yahshua was a man that, as you said, carried out a duty to become, or prepare rather, to be the sacrificial lamb for our trespass sins.

Thanks, that clears it up.

Why would He need to be Baptized and have the Spirit rest on Him if He was Elohim?

In submitting to it, Jesus established his solidarity with those who were the objects of John's (the Baptist) preaching, the faithful remnant of Israel.

Or not, I guess.

And after the Spirit rested on Him He continued to pray to YAH the Father up in heaven.

Yep... pretty confusing man.

Immaculata pray for us,
Scott

 

[dawny0826]

Oh Dawny0826,

I thought you might like this as well..........

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth Yahshua Ha Mashiach is born of Elohim: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we love Elohim, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of Elohim overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Yahshua is the Son of Elohim?

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Yahshua Ha Mashiach; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

I may have asked you this before...what scriptures are you reading from? Do your texts refer to Jesus and God by their "formal" (for lack of a better word) names?

It's nice to know...that despite differences in interpretation...we certainly speak of the very same God and can relate to His awesome Love, regardless of our approach to His Word.

I really appreciate the opportunity to share with others of like faith. It's so easy sometimes for me to get caught up in debate and then it hits me like a ton of bricks...Dawn...this isn't about you...this is about HIM.

It's been very rewarding to take the time to "listen" to what others say.

 

[wmam]

I'm not "the Roman Catholics"... I am Scott....

Oh....... I apologize for my misunderstanding. See I thought that Roman Catholicism was your religion.........

My bad!

and I'm not sure why my asking a few simple questions to learn about why you believe what you believe has you so concerned, but....

Now why would I be concerned about you or anyone? Should I be? Scott? Is there something your not telling me?

Thanks for the word study, but why should I believe a word of it?

Ummmmmmmmm.............. I don't know. Why shouldn't you?

Isnt it just a book written by men about a man, right?

Wrong. But I have this feeling you will disagree. LOL

Ooooh, by the way, please help me out: do any of those translations mean "created"?

I would have to believe that it would being that YAH created all things.

Thanks, that clears it up.

Oh you are so very welcome. Glad to be of service.

In submitting to it, Jesus established his solidarity with those who were the objects of John's (the Baptist) preaching, the faithful remnant of Israel.

Or not, I guess.

Well I don't look at it quite like that though I am sure that yes He probably did satisfy them in so much as to who He was and all. I look at it as it is pretty much stated in the Scripture and thats it. Plain and simple. He didn't have the Spirit until He was Baptized. But John had the Spirit from the womb. Thats because He had to prepare the way.

Yep... pretty confusing man.

For some............. I myself enjoy becoming closer to YAH my Elohim through His word. I make it my life's goal.

Immaculata pray for us,
Scott

And Praise YAH our Elohim in the name of Yahshua Ha Mashiach Ben Dawid, Shabbat Shalom!

 

[wmam]

I may have asked you this before...what scriptures are you reading from? Do your texts refer to Jesus and God by their "formal" (for lack of a better word) names?

It's nice to know...that despite differences in interpretation...we certainly speak of the very same God and can relate to His awesome Love, regardless of our approach to His Word.

I really appreciate the opportunity to share with others of like faith. It's so easy sometimes for me to get caught up in debate and then it hits me like a ton of bricks...Dawn...this isn't about you...this is about HIM.

It's been very rewarding to take the time to "listen" to what others say.

I use a program with many, many different translations. Sometimes I just erase the pagan names and put back the true names.in the KJV. I use the KJV when posting because it seems to be the most widely accepted version. Better for others understanding.

I to enjoy listening to others beliefs. Its the name calling and meanness of some that I have issue with. Some just like to stir the pot. LOL

 

[dawny0826]

I use a program with many, many different translations. Sometimes I just erase the pagan names and put back the true names.in the KJV. I use the KJV when posting because it seems to be the most widely accepted version. Better for others understanding.

I to enjoy listening to others beliefs. Its the name calling and meanness of some that I have issue with. Some just like to stir the pot. LOL

I'm partial to the NKJV. I read from several...but it's my favorite. I use the NCV for devotionals...it breaks everything down in detail. You use a computer program?

That's super interesting...we're reading from practically the same version and read things differently.

 

[wmam]

I'm partial to the NKJV. I read from several...but it's my favorite. I use the NCV for devotionals...it breaks everything down in detail. You use a computer program?

That's super interesting...we're reading from practically the same version and read things differently.

Well........ I do like the JPS for the Tanach and the Pe****ta for the Gospels. I have come to realize that all versions have their flaws. You have to be very, very careful and do your homework. I strive each and every day to learn the true will of YAH. I feel pretty comfortable with it so far.

Shabbat Shalom