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Is There Such A Thing As Karma?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Gentoo
The Feisty Penguin
I believe that karma exists. I've seen it at work, and when in the negative aspect, it's not pretty. Karma to me is the energy put out that is reflected back to the person. Negative actions bring about negative repercussions.
Though not everything can be blamed on karma, the whole "why do bad things happen to good people?" To that, I say that more often than not they were either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or it could be simply coincidence.
Though not everything can be blamed on karma, the whole "why do bad things happen to good people?" To that, I say that more often than not they were either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or it could be simply coincidence.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I do not believe in Karma as defined by the various religions of man. Karma is not something that haunts me from an illusory past, as time as it is commonly perceived simply does not exist.
To me, Karma is a relatively instantaneous auto-correcting feature of multidimensional being. One simply receives relatively instantaneous feedback from reality based on Ones actions. When the "bounce back" feature of reality is deemed unpleasant, one simply alters their behavior accordingly. It's pretty drop dead simple.
How do I know? Because I have observed the phenomenah for decades. Granted I am simply observing a result of a given belief set but it seems to work quite well for me. For example, if I am being moody and make people angry I have noticed that people tend to respond in kind. If I am cheery, it makes people happy and people respond in kind. Extend this to any action.
To me, Karma is a relatively instantaneous auto-correcting feature of multidimensional being. One simply receives relatively instantaneous feedback from reality based on Ones actions. When the "bounce back" feature of reality is deemed unpleasant, one simply alters their behavior accordingly. It's pretty drop dead simple.
How do I know? Because I have observed the phenomenah for decades. Granted I am simply observing a result of a given belief set but it seems to work quite well for me. For example, if I am being moody and make people angry I have noticed that people tend to respond in kind. If I am cheery, it makes people happy and people respond in kind. Extend this to any action.
M
Majikthise
Guest
I had to call a customer today to ask him which pump was leaking on his boat because he wasn't exact in his description of the problem. He wasn't very happy that I had disturbed him and was rude to me. I was nice as pie and listened as he told me what the problem was and thanked him when I got the info I required for the repair.
He said he thought there was salt water leaking in through his forward bilge pump. As it turns out, he had his toilet pump valve set in the wrong positon and the back pressure caused it to leak onto his bilge pump making it seem like it was leaking.
What made him think it was salt water leaking in?
He had told me ,as if I were a moron on the phone, that he had stuck his finger in the liquid and it tasted salty. :cover:
Yeah , I believe in karma.
He said he thought there was salt water leaking in through his forward bilge pump. As it turns out, he had his toilet pump valve set in the wrong positon and the back pressure caused it to leak onto his bilge pump making it seem like it was leaking.
What made him think it was salt water leaking in?
He had told me ,as if I were a moron on the phone, that he had stuck his finger in the liquid and it tasted salty. :cover:
Yeah , I believe in karma.
KingNothing
Member
If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you ARE! And you should know that! -Crash Davis, Bull Durham
If you believe in Karma, then it exists. The mind is powerful.
If you believe in Karma, then it exists. The mind is powerful.
Booko
Deviled Hen
I live by karma. Even when I was a rabid atheist, I "believed" in karma, because for whatever reason, it seemed to apply in life.
Anyone read any M. Scott Peck? In one of his books (can't recall which one), he describes an experiement he did while driving. He'd be very calm and friendly and let people into traffic, and it seemed like he had an easy drive, and could get into traffic easily himself, as people would let him in. And when he quietly cursed people under his breath and didn't let anyone in, he had a difficult time moving in traffic, and people cut him off a lot more.
I've had the same experience.
Karma has very everyday uses, even absent any religious belief. For one example, when dealing with difficult people, there is the idea that sometimes it's just best to "let them hang themselves." This is one expression of karma.
To add negativity onto an already bad situation only makes it worse. And if the person acting in a negative way is instead confronted with understanding and positive emotions, it's been known to happen that they were then able to realize what they were doing, and modify their behaviour. One of the best known religious expressions of this principle is when Jesus tells His followers, "Love them that hate you." All the Founders of religions, and many philosophers besides, have touched on this theme.
As an avid gardener, I tend to make gradening analogies. In the case of "positive" karma, I like to think of it as we all have areas where we need to grow. By putting out positive energy, we give others the room to grow that they need. They may take the opportunity, or they may not. But be reacting to negativity with negativity, we hem them in -- and ourselves as well.
Anyone read any M. Scott Peck? In one of his books (can't recall which one), he describes an experiement he did while driving. He'd be very calm and friendly and let people into traffic, and it seemed like he had an easy drive, and could get into traffic easily himself, as people would let him in. And when he quietly cursed people under his breath and didn't let anyone in, he had a difficult time moving in traffic, and people cut him off a lot more.
I've had the same experience.
Karma has very everyday uses, even absent any religious belief. For one example, when dealing with difficult people, there is the idea that sometimes it's just best to "let them hang themselves." This is one expression of karma.
To add negativity onto an already bad situation only makes it worse. And if the person acting in a negative way is instead confronted with understanding and positive emotions, it's been known to happen that they were then able to realize what they were doing, and modify their behaviour. One of the best known religious expressions of this principle is when Jesus tells His followers, "Love them that hate you." All the Founders of religions, and many philosophers besides, have touched on this theme.
As an avid gardener, I tend to make gradening analogies. In the case of "positive" karma, I like to think of it as we all have areas where we need to grow. By putting out positive energy, we give others the room to grow that they need. They may take the opportunity, or they may not. But be reacting to negativity with negativity, we hem them in -- and ourselves as well.
Yes I believe in Karma, I believe Karma only means that you're experiencing for your own soul's development based on past good or bad deeds. So we must get rid of the guilt of hellfire and damnation, I believe that we come back life after life to work out our karma and to learn lessons.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
More or less it is. Karma literally is reality biting you in the butt when you do something stupid. It is also a warm embrace when you do something "good". It is supposed to be about learned behavior, after all, what else do you take from this world other than the things you have learned? Nothing at all. Again, karma is here and now, not there and then as religions have so pathetically misunderstood.Jaiket said:
Technically speaking, from a non-physical perspective there is no "past" and there is no "future". There is only Now. Do you ever experience your reality from any other perspective than the Present moment? Nope.
Hema
Sweet n Spicy
Of course karma is real. It's the way the universe works. For every action there is a reaction. In Hinduism, there is no permanent hell although there are hellish regions which are temporary. By doing good now, we can offset past bad karma and generate good karma for the future. We are not predestined to suffer. It's God's way of giving us numerous chances to correct our wrongs.
eudaimonia
Fellowship of Reason
I only believe in karma in the sense of the "cause and effect" that naturally occurs due to intentional acts. You reap what you sow, and even if you are able to cheat your way to certain desired outward results, you can never escape the echoing pattern of undesired internal results. Even the outward results are likely to be on shaky ground.
Ponder the saying that I heard often in school: "If you cheat on exams, you only cheat yourself out of an education." Ponder also the story of the Ring of Gyges, and the Socratic response to this.
I have a thoroughly rational and non-mystical view of karma (and rarely refer to it as "karma"), and I don't believe in either reincarnation or rebirth. It's just one way of considering the issue of cause and effect on the human psyche as it engages in the activities of life.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Ponder the saying that I heard often in school: "If you cheat on exams, you only cheat yourself out of an education." Ponder also the story of the Ring of Gyges, and the Socratic response to this.
I have a thoroughly rational and non-mystical view of karma (and rarely refer to it as "karma"), and I don't believe in either reincarnation or rebirth. It's just one way of considering the issue of cause and effect on the human psyche as it engages in the activities of life.
eudaimonia,
Mark
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
I would like to beleive in Karma, and I definately see things in life that seem to fit with the idea of Karma, but I have a strong feeling that what I perceive as Karma is merely random events which seem to fit into that pattern. If Karma truly existed, then people who do good would consistently be rewarded and those who do ill would consistently be punished. Sadly this is simply not the case across the board.
When we see a particularly nasty person get their come uppance, we tend to feel that this is Karma, and when we see a particularly nice person get some good result, we also tend to feel that this is Karma. Unfortunately this ignores the many many many nasty people who profit, and the equally many nice people who flounder.
I think on a personal level, tho that Karma exists, if you beleive in it. If I am a beleiver in Karma, and I do bad things, then when I get a bad result, I am likely to chalk it up to my bad Karma created by my prior bad act. Likewise if I do good things and good things come to me, I chalk this up to my good Karma. Frankly I think that everyone everywhere would benefit if we all acted as if Karma was a real thing, regardless of whether it is or not.
If we all went around trying to do good acts so that good fortune would follow, then I cannot help thinking that this world would be a wonderful place. Likewise avoiding bad behaviors so as not to rack up bad Karma would also help society at large.
So, I personally do not think it exists in the same way as the keyboard I am typing on exists, but I try to act in my personal life as if Karma does exist, because to me, on a personal level, it does, even if only as a self fulfilling prophesy.
B.
When we see a particularly nasty person get their come uppance, we tend to feel that this is Karma, and when we see a particularly nice person get some good result, we also tend to feel that this is Karma. Unfortunately this ignores the many many many nasty people who profit, and the equally many nice people who flounder.
I think on a personal level, tho that Karma exists, if you beleive in it. If I am a beleiver in Karma, and I do bad things, then when I get a bad result, I am likely to chalk it up to my bad Karma created by my prior bad act. Likewise if I do good things and good things come to me, I chalk this up to my good Karma. Frankly I think that everyone everywhere would benefit if we all acted as if Karma was a real thing, regardless of whether it is or not.
If we all went around trying to do good acts so that good fortune would follow, then I cannot help thinking that this world would be a wonderful place. Likewise avoiding bad behaviors so as not to rack up bad Karma would also help society at large.
So, I personally do not think it exists in the same way as the keyboard I am typing on exists, but I try to act in my personal life as if Karma does exist, because to me, on a personal level, it does, even if only as a self fulfilling prophesy.
B.
*hand shoots up* I'm a believer of karma. It's the only thing that is keeping my head straight through our current problems.
I'll let Robert Thurman do the talking with embellishing how I feel about karma. It's pretty much spot-on.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15871_1.html
The Consolation of Karma
Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman talks about how suffering, even through the tsunami disaster, can offer a karmic advantage.
Interview by Lisa Schneider
Robert Thurman holds the first endowed chair in Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies in the United States, at Columbia University in New York. He is the author of the international best-seller "Inner Revolution," and the co-founder and president of Tibet House U.S., a nonprofit organization dedicated to the preservation of Tibetan culture.
Why do bad things happen to good people? Does karma play a role?
Abstractly speaking, karma is not really a theory of fate; it's a causal theory. And it says that anything bad that happens to you is a resonance of something bad that you perpetrated in a previous life.
The main thing about karma, what we might want to call collective karma, when there's a disaster where people haven't done anything and a terrible thing happens from nature, is that the bodhisattva, or the outside person looking at the situation, never invokes the karma theory and says, "Well, I don't have to worry about them because that was their bad karma and they got wasted and too bad--as if it were some sort of fate or a way of writing off the disaster. It should never be used that way.
The bodhisattva never accepts the absoluteness of that explanation, although she would be aware of it. She would think of it as a terrible tragedy, unprovoked and unmerited, and would try to do everything possible to save the people from the disaster and help the survivors.
On the other hand, the karma theory that everything bad that happens to me is from my own negative action in the past is always useful for the person who suffers. In other words, using the karma theory to blame the victim is good for the victim to do about themselves. This is a very surprising idea. If the victims just sit and shake their fist at the universe, shout at God (if they are theists) or shout at karma, then they weaken themselves in the sense that they have just emphasized their helplessness.
Whereas if they say, I'm going to use this disaster that happened to me as if it were expiating previous things that I did to the world that were negative, and I'm going to grow stronger from it....In other words, I can't do anything about the disaster but I can do something about my reaction to it. I'm not going to add to the suffering it has caused with a new suffering of agonizing about myself and feeling helpless and feeling angry at the external world. I'm going to take responsibility for being in the way of the disaster as part of my own karma and therefore I'm going to use this tragedy as an advantage toward freedom, towards Buddhahood.
Is that a way they can find meaning in their suffering?
They find meaning and they find advantage is the main point. They can say, this is going to be a conscious effort I'm going to do.
Now if they got killed, of course they're not going to do anything in that life. But from the Buddhist point of view, if they have a lingering memory of a catastrophe because they died in a moment of panic and fear and worry for their loved ones and so on, if they retain some memory of this death-which often the just-dead do, in the Buddhist view in the bardo, the between state-and they're saying, well, this is a terrible karma thing that happened to me and others. I will try to make my suffering a sacrifice, an expiation of previous things that I caused, and I'm going to have a better life in the future. And I'm going to try to help the beings who died, my loved ones and others, and be of more help to them in my next life.
So that they would try to take advantage in the between-state in the after-death state in order to improve their rebirth, rather than just freak out.
What solace can Buddhism offer to survivors who have lost loved ones?
The solace to survivors who have lost someone is: Well, they lost this life, I lost my contact with them, but moaning and groaning and freaking out about it and being angry about it isn't going to help. I should send them good prayers and good vibrations about their rebirth. If I dearly love them, I will pray to meet them again in the coming life, in wherever they are reborn, to make the world in general a better place for them, and vow to rejoin them (if it's a soulmate sort of thing) in another life. So the consolation of karma is not just identifying the lost beings with the embodiment of a particular life, but feeling a sense of spiritual connection to their larger continuity of life and sending good vibes toward that.
The theist says it's God's will and God took care of them and hopes to join them in heaven, which is also good consolation and sort of leaves it up to God. But the karma is seeing it as a process in which you are also a responsible actor. Otherwise the vastness of the causal mixes is so huge it's pretty incomprehensible, and no wonder some people call it God, or God's will, or providence.
But the key thing is that karma is not the exercise of a particular agency or divinity; it is an impersonal process of causality. I call it evolutionary causality.
What do you mean by that?
It's a causality by which beings evolve. Like if they do an action of a certain type, they get an effect from that action because it changes their being and their being evolves. It can evolve in a negative or a positive direction depending on whether the actions are negative or positive. In a way, karma is a biological theory just like a Western genetic biological theory. And it is very like a genetic biological theory in that it has humans being reborn as animals, animals as humans. And it adds to that also the idea of the spiritual gene or the soul gene being interwoven within that genetic rebirth process. So that your own individual consciousness can become the animal or become the god or become the human or whatever it becomes.
It's hard to generalize across cultures, but is there a traditional mourning period for Buddhists?
In the Buddhist context, they consider that the weeping and wailing and shrieking and tearing hair and clothes, that kind of thing, is not actually a good idea. It doesn't really relieve the bereaved; in fact it even pumps up their emotion. But the main point from the Buddhist point of view is that the one who just died, being still aware of what those left behind, the survivors are doing for a while--the departed one gets very anxious and upset and preserves that raw emotion as very disturbing. So whenever someone is overcome by grief, the tendency, especially in Tibetan Buddhist culture, is to try to calm that survivor down and have them think of good and positive thoughts and send good vibes.
So the nature of their grief should take the form of looking forward and being compassionate with others?
Yes, that's considered better--sincerely sending really strong caring and loving vibes toward the one who passed away. Because the main person in transition at that time, the most difficult transition, is the death-rebirth transition in the Buddhist view. The one left behind is not that drastic in the sense that they're still in their familiar embodiment, even though it may be a big disruption for them. So the priority is to send the good vibes to the departed, in the Buddhist world view.
Peace,
Mystic
I'll let Robert Thurman do the talking with embellishing how I feel about karma. It's pretty much spot-on.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15871_1.html
The Consolation of Karma
Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman talks about how suffering, even through the tsunami disaster, can offer a karmic advantage.
Interview by Lisa Schneider
Robert Thurman holds the first endowed chair in Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies in the United States, at Columbia University in New York. He is the author of the international best-seller "Inner Revolution," and the co-founder and president of Tibet House U.S., a nonprofit organization dedicated to the preservation of Tibetan culture.
Why do bad things happen to good people? Does karma play a role?
Abstractly speaking, karma is not really a theory of fate; it's a causal theory. And it says that anything bad that happens to you is a resonance of something bad that you perpetrated in a previous life.
The main thing about karma, what we might want to call collective karma, when there's a disaster where people haven't done anything and a terrible thing happens from nature, is that the bodhisattva, or the outside person looking at the situation, never invokes the karma theory and says, "Well, I don't have to worry about them because that was their bad karma and they got wasted and too bad--as if it were some sort of fate or a way of writing off the disaster. It should never be used that way.
The bodhisattva never accepts the absoluteness of that explanation, although she would be aware of it. She would think of it as a terrible tragedy, unprovoked and unmerited, and would try to do everything possible to save the people from the disaster and help the survivors.
On the other hand, the karma theory that everything bad that happens to me is from my own negative action in the past is always useful for the person who suffers. In other words, using the karma theory to blame the victim is good for the victim to do about themselves. This is a very surprising idea. If the victims just sit and shake their fist at the universe, shout at God (if they are theists) or shout at karma, then they weaken themselves in the sense that they have just emphasized their helplessness.
Whereas if they say, I'm going to use this disaster that happened to me as if it were expiating previous things that I did to the world that were negative, and I'm going to grow stronger from it....In other words, I can't do anything about the disaster but I can do something about my reaction to it. I'm not going to add to the suffering it has caused with a new suffering of agonizing about myself and feeling helpless and feeling angry at the external world. I'm going to take responsibility for being in the way of the disaster as part of my own karma and therefore I'm going to use this tragedy as an advantage toward freedom, towards Buddhahood.
Is that a way they can find meaning in their suffering?
They find meaning and they find advantage is the main point. They can say, this is going to be a conscious effort I'm going to do.
Now if they got killed, of course they're not going to do anything in that life. But from the Buddhist point of view, if they have a lingering memory of a catastrophe because they died in a moment of panic and fear and worry for their loved ones and so on, if they retain some memory of this death-which often the just-dead do, in the Buddhist view in the bardo, the between state-and they're saying, well, this is a terrible karma thing that happened to me and others. I will try to make my suffering a sacrifice, an expiation of previous things that I caused, and I'm going to have a better life in the future. And I'm going to try to help the beings who died, my loved ones and others, and be of more help to them in my next life.
So that they would try to take advantage in the between-state in the after-death state in order to improve their rebirth, rather than just freak out.
What solace can Buddhism offer to survivors who have lost loved ones?
The solace to survivors who have lost someone is: Well, they lost this life, I lost my contact with them, but moaning and groaning and freaking out about it and being angry about it isn't going to help. I should send them good prayers and good vibrations about their rebirth. If I dearly love them, I will pray to meet them again in the coming life, in wherever they are reborn, to make the world in general a better place for them, and vow to rejoin them (if it's a soulmate sort of thing) in another life. So the consolation of karma is not just identifying the lost beings with the embodiment of a particular life, but feeling a sense of spiritual connection to their larger continuity of life and sending good vibes toward that.
The theist says it's God's will and God took care of them and hopes to join them in heaven, which is also good consolation and sort of leaves it up to God. But the karma is seeing it as a process in which you are also a responsible actor. Otherwise the vastness of the causal mixes is so huge it's pretty incomprehensible, and no wonder some people call it God, or God's will, or providence.
But the key thing is that karma is not the exercise of a particular agency or divinity; it is an impersonal process of causality. I call it evolutionary causality.
What do you mean by that?
It's a causality by which beings evolve. Like if they do an action of a certain type, they get an effect from that action because it changes their being and their being evolves. It can evolve in a negative or a positive direction depending on whether the actions are negative or positive. In a way, karma is a biological theory just like a Western genetic biological theory. And it is very like a genetic biological theory in that it has humans being reborn as animals, animals as humans. And it adds to that also the idea of the spiritual gene or the soul gene being interwoven within that genetic rebirth process. So that your own individual consciousness can become the animal or become the god or become the human or whatever it becomes.
It's hard to generalize across cultures, but is there a traditional mourning period for Buddhists?
In the Buddhist context, they consider that the weeping and wailing and shrieking and tearing hair and clothes, that kind of thing, is not actually a good idea. It doesn't really relieve the bereaved; in fact it even pumps up their emotion. But the main point from the Buddhist point of view is that the one who just died, being still aware of what those left behind, the survivors are doing for a while--the departed one gets very anxious and upset and preserves that raw emotion as very disturbing. So whenever someone is overcome by grief, the tendency, especially in Tibetan Buddhist culture, is to try to calm that survivor down and have them think of good and positive thoughts and send good vibes.
So the nature of their grief should take the form of looking forward and being compassionate with others?
Yes, that's considered better--sincerely sending really strong caring and loving vibes toward the one who passed away. Because the main person in transition at that time, the most difficult transition, is the death-rebirth transition in the Buddhist view. The one left behind is not that drastic in the sense that they're still in their familiar embodiment, even though it may be a big disruption for them. So the priority is to send the good vibes to the departed, in the Buddhist world view.
Peace,
Mystic
Of course there is such a thing: if there were no Karma, there would be no Consequence. And where there is consequence, Truth is never far behind. Karma is both the concept by which we relate to the interdependent connectedness of everything and the dynamic by which it resolves: cause-and-effect.