Is there such a thing as enlightenment?

[Sunstone]

What is enlightenment? Does it exist? Is it possible?

 

[ayani]

ah, but enlightenment means many differnt things to different people! to some it means letting go of the ego and the extinction of desire. to others it means a surrender of one's will for the will of God. and to others it means becoming intuned with the rhythms of the greater universe and letting go of the illusion of distinctions.

either way, it's a tough road to travel. i do think enlightenment is possible. some individuals may be better spiritually prepared to seek enlightenment than others, but ultimately it's about the individual's efforts and attention to mindfulness along the way. whether you're "offically enlightened" of not, you can still live with love and sensitivity.

 

[michel]

ah, but enlightenment means many differnt things to different people! to some it means letting go of the ego and the extinction of desire. to others it means a surrender of one's will for the will of God. and to others it means becoming intuned with the rhythms of the greater universe and letting go of the illusion of distinctions.

either way, it's a tough road to travel. i do think enlightenment is possible. some individuals may be better spiritually prepared to seek enlightenment than others, but ultimately it's about the individual's efforts and attention to mindfulness along the way. whether you're "offically enlightened" of not, you can still live with love and sensitivity.

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to gracie again.:banghead3
Som well put, gracie. I must admit that a lot of what you have said is a reflection of my own thoughts; the becoming tuned to nature, work toward a better spiritual understanding, and Mindfulness. Strange, you are the first person on this forum whom I have seen use that term; and yet it is one of the most powerful tools that we have been given. Is Mindfulness a tennet of the Quaker belief ?

 

[ayani]

Is Mindfulness a tennet of the Quaker belief?

Michel-

actually, yes! though it's not often called "mindfulness". Quakers strive to be mindful of God's presence in all circumstances and people, as well as within one's own self. but it's often during worship that we can all gather and slow down enough to hear God's voice.

 

[Engyo]

Gracie -

Just a question - have you studied Buddhism at all? You are much more well versed in it than many folks I encounter online.

 

[ayani]

Gracie -have you studied Buddhism at all?

here and there... i try to study all the major religions a little, just to have some idea of where folks are coming from!

 

[michel]

here and there... i try to study all the major religions a little, just to have some idea of where folks are coming from!

Well, you seem to have 'soaked up' some good stuff.

 

[anders]

As difficult as defining "salvation". Salvation from what? and how?

What used to be "salvation" (frälsning) in the Swedish Bibles has now been replaced by something like "being saved" (bli räddad). I find however that my question in my first para. still applies.

One textbook in Religious studies tried to equate "salvation" with Buddhist "nirvana". I object. If anything, I find the Xian "salvation" to be more like nirodha, the Buddhist stage of understanding the cessation of dukkha (dissatisfaction, often rather sloppily translated as "suffering"). I think that this must be at least close to the Buddha's enlightenment, making him an arhat, a person who has realized nirvana.

Anyway, my personal philosophy, which I think is rather close to the original Daoism, requires no enlightenment or salvation.

 

[lilithu]

What is enlightenment? Does it exist? Is it possible?

Enlightenment, to me, is when one realizes that samsara is actually nirvana. Enlightenment is when one realizes that one's enemy is actually one's friend; that what is "imperfect" or "damaged" is actually wonderful and just the way that it's supposed to be; that this earth, which can seem like hell at times is actually heaven.

Enlightenment is a continual process, not a destination. Even the Buddha continued to enounter Mara (the personification of desire) up until his final days.

Otoh, enlightenment can occur suddenly rather than in gradual steps. And having occured, one is permanently changed. Having attained enlightenment, the Buddha was no longer controlled by Mara, even as he continued to encounter him.

I believe that enlightenment exists and is possible. I try to strive for it everyday.

 

[robtex]

Sometimes it is putting little pieces together that didn't seem tangent at first but have an intimate relationship. Many times in college I would be looking at a sociology book and remember some obscure demographics from another course and how it related to my current reading or be looking at cash flow statements in the school of business and remember a marketing concept from a marketing class that might get a better return on an overused (and hypothical in college) expendure on start-up costs.....

For metaphysics and intangables like morality sometimes it is thinking about how a countries political system factors into it or a personally witnessed or personally felt experience in my past.

It is that context that is added from a past revelation or learning experience that can be superinposed in thought to get a different angle on an idea. Nothing in our lifetime happens in a vaccum unless we purposely shut out our past experience and understanding of the world we live in.

 

[lilithu]

Sometimes it is putting little pieces together that didn't seem tangent at first but have an intimate relationship. Many times in college I would be looking at a sociology book and remember some obscure demographics from another course and how it related to my current reading or be looking at cash flow statements in the school of business and remember a marketing concept from a marketing class that might get a better return on an overused (and hypothical in college) expendure on start-up costs.....

For metaphysics and intangables like morality sometimes it is thinking about how a countries political system factors into it or a personally witnessed or personally felt experience in my past.

It is that context that is added from a past revelation or learning experience that can be superinposed in thought to get a different angle on an idea. Nothing in our lifetime happens in a vaccum unless we purposely shut out our past experience and understanding of the world we live in.

hmmm... so what you're saying is that enlightenment is recognizing "the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."

 

[robtex]

hmmm... so what you're saying is that enlightenment is recognizing "the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."

no...more like drawing on past learned experiences and deductions and applying it to current situations even when not presented as such in a pre-packaged set. Not on the basis of osmosis or metathought but more of past knowledge gained or deduced as applied to tangent or relevant current ideas or thoughts.

 

[lilithu]

no...more like drawing on past learned experiences and deductions and applying it to current situations even when not presented as such in a pre-packaged set. Not on the basis of osmosis or metathought but more of past knowledge gained or deduced as applied to tangent or relevant current ideas or thoughts.

I wasn't talking about osmosis or metathought. I was talking about seeing connections between things - between past and present, between one situation and another - that one didn't see before.

 

[michel]

hmmm... so what you're saying is that enlightenment is recognizing "the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."

Hi lilithu, Namaste,
That sounds O.K to me - what's wrong with Rob's comment ?

 

[Unedited]

I believe there are times when we suddenly realise something, or that when something suddenly makes more since. I also believe that we are all striving towards a sort of spiritual wisdom that we will one day reach.

But my immediate answer is "No." I don't believe, that any of the people who have been said to have reached enlightenment have actually. I don't believe it's something we reach in this plane.

My opinion comes down to belief though, not logic.

 

[lilithu]

Hi lilithu, Namaste,
That sounds O.K to me - what's wrong with Rob's comment ?

Namaste Michel,
there was nothing wrong with Rob's comment. I was just trying to point out that his idea of enlightenment fit quite nicely (imo) with our seventh principle, which was, afterall, worded by a Buddhist.

 

[michel]

lilithu, Namaste,
I misunderstood;for those who don't know the seven principles, I thought I'd add them to this thread.

1. <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">The inherent dignity and worth of every person; <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">Justice, equity and compassion in human relations; <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations; <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large; <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 110%">The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
2. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part;

Which, when you think about it, is a sound Morale that could apply to.....even an atheist! (Hello Rob ?)

 

[Engyo]

hmmm... so what you're saying is that enlightenment is recognizing "the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."

I like the general statement; however I feel that "recognizing" is far too weak a term. "Fully embracing and comprehending deeply" is probably also too weak, but it's what I can think of at the moment.......

 

[autonomous1one1]

What is enlightenment? Does it exist? Is it possible?

Greetings:
There is a phenomenon that occurs within man which could be stated as 'the individual realizes oneness with God.' This is described sometimes as Enlightenment, or a mystical experience of union with God, illumination, or by other descriptive terms.

My belief is that at the heart of religion is the message that each of us has potential for our own Enlightenment; which is defined here as the realization of our identity with the source of all being. One of the first books that came to my attention that contains this definition and that expresses Enlightenment in a number of ways is "The Truth is One" by Henry James Forman and Roland Gammon.

With all the information sources we have today, Enlightenment might be closer than we think. Much written fodder exists on this state of being one with God and the moment of realizing this state. The written material ranges from books on mysticism, to writings of early philosophical thinkers such as Plotinus who wrote 'the subject and object (the Supreme Being) become one,' to novelists such as Somerset Maugham who wrote in "The Razor's Edge" 'a moment one with the Absolute,' and to more recent philosophical theologians such as Paul Tillich who wrote 'the ground of being reunites with itself and fulfillment within universal fulfillment is realized.' The breakthrough instant often is a monumental moment for the individual and is associated with tremendous internal changes, including a change in self identity. Others have taught me on this website as discussed in another thread that whether this Enlightenment must come in this sort of transforming 'flash' only or whether there is potential through gradual evolvement is still a subject of discussion. But my opinion is in agreement with lilithu that both are possible.

 

[c0da]

I think enlightenment can be a number of different things.

One is fully enlightened or awakened when they have rid themselves off the negative emotions and thoughts, such as greed and hatred that are the sources for their bad karma, have left behind the idea of the independently existing 'self'.

I also believe that one can feel enlightenment on a small scale, or realization within daily life. Carrying out an altruistic action or noting the impermanence of a situation or object can lead to this feeling.