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Is the holy spirit, God, or something else?

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Tumah, that first post was an error.

Sorry about that. I had read hastily the first time but then caught it before posting. However, I just signed out and then came back later to redo the post not realizing it would retain the first quote. So that surprised me when it came up with my later posting. I would have thought that signing out would have canceled it all together but it didn't.

Now Tumah, I know what I quoted JA Benner as saying the root thought is. But I also know that particular comment did not take it all the way to the root. This particular word is shown to have been used to refer to the erecting of a bird's nest. I don't know if that is what Strong's found, supporting his conclusion that the root meaning is "to erect".

Strong's H7069 - "qanah -- pronounced: kaw-naw' - a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own: KJV -- attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily."

This is a fascinating point as this is why Jesus told Jerusalem the following:
Matthew 23:37b "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ...... how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Jesus was keenly aware that he was created of God to be the head hen appointed over the nest in which all creation would come to reside, to care for it and protect it. It is there in the progression Brenner gives:

1428) (QN ) ac: Acquire co: Nest ab: Zealous: The pictograph is a picture of the sun at the horizon and the gathering of the light, the is a picture of a seed. Combined these mean "gathering for the seeds". The parent birds go about gathering materials to build a nest where they will raise their seeds (eggs). (eng: coin - for purchasing)
A) (QN ) ac: ? co: Nest ab:: A birds nest as well as a stall for animals as a nest.
N m ) (QN ) — Nest: [freq. 13] |kjv: nest, room| {str: 7064}
B) ( QNN ) ac: ? co: Nest ab: The building of the nest and family.
V) (Q-NN ) — Nest: To build a Nest or home. [freq. 5] (vf: Pual, Piel) |kjv: nest| {str: 7077}

Brenner does a good job of presenting the roots the word found at Proverbs 8:22 comes up through. I was aware of this from my studies years ago. This information is not so new as many think. I have heard many claim that this is new understanding but I think man's pride wants to believe he is now more intelligent than all before him. That is just so typical of the arrogance of man.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
When we consider Isaiah's prophecy we see that it is not true that "all Israel" (in this sense of the natural nation) will be saved. And so we ubderstand that we muct look deeper at Paul's words in Romans chapters 9-11 as to what Paul is really telling us.

Genesis 32:12 "And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude."

Isaiah 10:22 "For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness." And that does mean, "[only] a remnant of them shall return to that place of rulership as associates of the Messiah. That does not mean there is no hope for all of those who did not return to that promise. Those that do not return have the same hope as all from every nation of men, which is an entire subject all of it's own. This has to do with the resurrection hope of the unjust. (Acts 24:15) Most Jehovah's Witnesses are equipped to explain how that works. (And not that I would be ashamed to be one, but I wish to make it clear that I am not a Jehovah's Witness per their organization, nor am I a member of any visible church of man. I am a true sojourner in every sense of the word.)

So that prophecy at Genesis 32:12 was already fulfilled according to Isaiah 10:22. How? In that once the ten-tribe kingdom was dispersed among the earth they were no longer able to be counted as to the number, although they no doubt yet multiplied probably with even a greater eagerness for offspring.

There is very good reason that Israel was dispersed throughout the earth, and I don't mean as just punishment for their sins. I mean because it was God's goal to bring the precious metals in all the earth into that special covenant for a kingdom of kings and priests, a royal nation which God called from among all men to serve with his Son as the kingdom which would come to rule this earth. Not all who were of Israel were lost sheep, but only the ones who would prove to be sheep of that house of Israel. And that would require that they show they faith of Abraham in the promised seed, the Messiah appointed over that house.

Revelation 7:1-8 is the same as Matthew 13:38 "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.." That is the world-wide Israel as the field God created by dispersing the natural Israel into all of the earth so that He could gather all the precious first-fruits out of all men. This is why Paul was able to say: Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.."

The true Israelite has never really been the one designated by natural childbirth but had always really only ever been the ones God himself chose from among them. And just as Jesus said,Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham," so also God is able to call the precious metals for his Israel out of from men of all nations.

Until one gets an accurate understanding of this base (which I have but briefly explained) they will naturally have difficulty understand much else Paul went on to say.
 

.kaleb

Member
This thread is scarryy...



In some of these verses, the verse is implying made with intent to posses. But the actual word itself means to acquire/own/posses.

And Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus. Its talking about Wisdom. "Wisdom calls (8:1)" "To you men, I call (8:4). "Wisdom is better than pearls (8:11).
Verse 22 is talking about Wisdom. "The beginning of G-d's ways" is Wisdom. It preceded everything. Prov. 3:19 "G-d with Wisdom founded land, established the heavens with understanding." "Fear of G-d is to hate evil. (8:11)" with "The beginning of Wisdom is Fear of G-d (Psa. 111:10)". Proverbs 8 is Wisdom. That's why it keeps saying "Wisdom". Because its referring to Wisdom.
How do you miss that?!?!
The quality or attribute of wisdom is described thruout chapter 8. However starting from vs 22, the context changes, wisdom is now being personified.

(Byington) vs 22 “Jehovah framed me first in line, foremost of his works in the past.
- was there ever a time almighty God never had wisdom?

(King James Version) vs 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
- who is the "I" mentioned here?

(Byington) vs 30 I was master-workman at his side And was taking my pleasure day by day, playing before him at every time,
- who is being talked about here? It can't be the quality of wisdom...

Vs 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.
- again, if the whole of chapter 8 is talking about wisdom the quality, who is the "I" who rejoiced over the habitable earth?
Who is the "I" who was especially fond of the sons of man?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Personification is not proof of personality. Here are a few instances where the holy spirit does not equate well with being a person. And it is not unusual for God’s Word to personify things that are not a person. These include wisdom, discernment, sin, death, and undeserved kindness. (Proverbs 8:1–9:6; Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) Jesus himself said that “wisdom is proved righteous by all its children,” or its good results. (Luke 7:35) Clearly, wisdom is not a person that has literal children! Likewise, the holy spirit is not a person simply because in some instances it is personified.
  • When Mary, the mother of Jesus, visited her cousin Elizabeth, the Bible says that the unborn child in Elizabeth’s womb leaped, “and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit.” (Luke 1:41) Is it reasonable that a person would be “filled” with another person?
Yes.
  • When John the Baptizer spoke to his disciples about Jesus as the one who would succeed him, John said: “I, for my part, baptize you with water . . . , but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize you people with holy spirit.” (Matthew 3:11) John could hardly have been referring to the holy spirit as a person when he spoke of baptizing people with it.
I don't know why you would think this.
  • While visiting a Roman army officer and his family, the apostle Peter spoke of Jesus as having been anointed by God “with holy spirit and power.” (Acts 10:38) Shortly afterward, “the holy spirit fell upon” the army officer’s household. The account says that many were amazed “because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.” (Acts 10:44, 45) Here again, the terms used are inconsistent with the idea of the holy spirit being a person.
I believe you need to explain why you think so.
  • At Acts 2:1-4, we read: “Now while the day of the Festival of Pentecost was in progress, they were all together at the same place. Suddenly there was a noise from heaven, just like that of a rushing, stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed, and one came to rest on each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak.” At verse 17, the first part of the verse reads: “‘And in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh.’” Does it make sense to think of the spirit as being a literal person if only a portion of it is to be poured out at a time? (Likewise at Numbers 11:17, Moses was told that some of the spirit would be removed and placed on others.)
I believe the Spirit of God is onispresent. It only appears tha the spirit has portions.

Holy Spirit is referenced, or listed often with impersonal things. Matthew 3:11 and Mark 1:8 contrasts holy spirit with both fire and water. It was to fill others along with such qualities of wisdom at faith at Act 6:3,5 and 11:24, or joy as mentioned at Act 13:52. It is sandwiched in between a number of qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6 which reads: "by purity, by knowledge, by patience, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy".

I believe if an apple and a head of lettuce are in a bowl one would not call lettuce a fruit because of its juxtaposition with an apple.
  • Even though spirit is 'bearing witness' at Act 5:32 and 20:23, the same thing is spoken of being done by water and blood at 1 John 5:6-8. While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296. What one chooses to believe is a personal matter. These scriptural references may provide those reading this thread a reason to make an informed choice of what to believe.

I believe in this the Catholic scholars have erred (It isn't the only time) because The Spirit of God has the power of God as an attribut so of course ereis an association.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The quality or attribute of wisdom is described thruout chapter 8. However starting from vs 22, the context changes, wisdom is now being personified.

(Byington) vs 22 “Jehovah framed me first in line, foremost of his works in the past.
- was there ever a time almighty God never had wisdom?

(King James Version) vs 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
- who is the "I" mentioned here?

(Byington) vs 30 I was master-workman at his side And was taking my pleasure day by day, playing before him at every time,
- who is being talked about here? It can't be the quality of wisdom...

Vs 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.
- again, if the whole of chapter 8 is talking about wisdom the quality, who is the "I" who rejoiced over the habitable earth?
Who is the "I" who was especially fond of the sons of man?

I believe it is wisdom personified although the author is only justified in doing so as a literary approach. To say that Jesus is wisdom would be as innacurate as calling Jesus a lamb.
 

.kaleb

Member
I believe it is wisdom personified although the author is only justified in doing so as a literary approach. To say that Jesus is wisdom would be as innacurate as calling Jesus a lamb.
And yet John the Baptist said of Jesus: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.- (King James Version) John 1:29
Or...
King James Version Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Types and anti types are used thru out the bible. The Passover lamb was a shadow of how in a much greater way, Jesus became our Passover lamb when he "takes away the sin of the world."
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The quality or attribute of wisdom is described thruout chapter 8. However starting from vs 22, the context changes, wisdom is now being personified.

(Byington) vs 22 “Jehovah framed me first in line, foremost of his works in the past.
- was there ever a time almighty God never had wisdom?
Yes. Before the concept "wisdom" was created.

(King James Version) vs 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
- who is the "I" mentioned here?
The same "I" as in verse 12. Its saying that the creation of wisdom preceded the entire creation. And the following verses express that G-d used wisdom to create the world.

(Byington) vs 30 I was master-workman at his side And was taking my pleasure day by day, playing before him at every time,
- who is being talked about here? It can't be the quality of wisdom...
Sure it can, its called a metaphor. You can find metaphors all over the Bible, but especially in King Solomon's works.
Its referring to the fact that G-d created the world with wisdom. Compare 8:28 with 3:19,20.
The verses here are using metaphor to say that G-d created every part of creation (ie. every day when a different thing was created) with wisdom.

I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.
- again, if the whole of chapter 8 is talking about wisdom the quality, who is the "I" who rejoiced over the habitable earth?
Who is the "I" who was especially fond of the sons of man?
Again a metaphor saying that people use wisdom. The mouth of the righteous utter wisdom (Psa. 37:30)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
And yet John the Baptist said of Jesus: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.- (King James Version) John 1:29
Or...
King James Version Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Types and anti types are used thru out the bible. The Passover lamb was a shadow of how in a much greater way, Jesus became our Passover lamb when he "takes away the sin of the world."

So I believe you are not superstitious enough to say that Jesus is a physical lamb.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is a big if; neither Jesus nor Holy Spirits are G-d. Jesus and Mary never believed this. It is a wrong notion invented by Church.

Regards

I believe the scriptures back up the concept of Jesus and the Paraclete being God so that means your notions are invented and the churches theology is not.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Yes. Before the concept "wisdom" was created.

So you are saying that God was not wise?


The same "I" as in verse 12. Its saying that the creation of wisdom preceded the entire creation. And the following verses express that G-d used wisdom to create the world.

If God created wisdom how could He if He were not wise enough to do so?


Sure it can, its called a metaphor. You can find metaphors all over the Bible, but especially in King Solomon's works.
Its referring to the fact that G-d created the world with wisdom. Compare 8:28 with 3:19,20.
The verses here are using metaphor to say that G-d created every part of creation (ie. every day when a different thing was created) with wisdom.

Doesn't that mean God was wise?


Again a metaphor saying that people use wisdom. The mouth of the righteous utter wisdom (Psa. 37:30)

I am wise enough to know that wisdom is an attribute of God and not a creation.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
How can Wisdom be an attribute of G-d if G-d precedes the concept of Wisdom?

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to witness it, does it still make a sound?

How does God precede wisdom? He has always been wise. But it was only after his creating intelligent life that others could bear witness to that fact.

Are you saying that some time in the distant past Jehovah was a village idiot sans the village?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to witness it, does it still make a sound?

How does God precede wisdom? He has always been wise. But it was only after his creating intelligent life that others could bear witness to that fact.
How can there be wisdom without folly?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Wisdom,Hebrew chokh-mah', implies a breadth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, describing a character of soundness and clarity of judgement.
(I may not have not worded that exactly right as I am not as knowledgeable of Hebrew as one who reads it directly.)
There is also the Hebrew tu-shi-yah' that can be rendered "effectual working" or "practical wisdom".

Psalm 49:3,4 and Proverbs 14:33 show that true wisdom does not just involve the mind but also the heart. And that fits with your question about folly.

With the breadth of Jehovah's knowledge and the depth of his understanding and the limitless experience from having lived forever, how can we ever say there was a time when Jehovah was unskilled or morally stupid?

God never changes (his attitude may change relevant to our actions, but he himself does not change.), so how can we say that at some point he began to know and to understand? Folly only applies to those who lack things that Jehovah does not lack.
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
If the disciples put faith in Jesus, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, why had the disciples never even heard of the Holy Spirit; and, why did Paul asked them if the disciples were GIVEN Holy Spirit? What would happen when disciples received the Holy Spirit?

Acts 19:1-2Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Paul in Ephesus
19 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled across the hill country to Ephesus, where he met some of the Lord’s followers. 2 He asked them, “When you put your faith in Jesus, were you given the Holy Spirit?”
“No!” they answered. “We have never even heard of the Holy Spirit.”

truth4u,
In the first place, Jesus and God are not the same!!! Jesus, himself said, the Father is greater than I am, John 14:28, Jesus said that he lives because of the Father, John 6:57. The Bible tells us that Jesus was the very first of God's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14. The Father is, both God and Father to Jesus, and us, John 20:17. Jesus, to us, is a god, but not the One True God, who is the Almighty, who created all things in heaven and on earth, John 17:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, Acts 17:24-28.
All of the disciples of Jesus knew of the Holy Spirit. They had the Hebrew Bible!! Moses wrote about the Spirit of God moving over the waters, preparing the earth for mankind, at Genesis 1:2. The Bible mentions God's Spirit coming on people, such as Samson, Judges 13:25, 14:6,19, 15:14-6, and on David, several times 1Samuel 16:13.
On The day that Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came down from heaven to stay on Jesus, Matthew 3:16,17. At Acts 1:4,5, just before Jesus went back to heaven, he told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they would receive the Holy Spirit. At Acts 2:1-4, 17,18. All of the disciples knew of these things. Peter gave a great talk right after that, and when some Jews, after realizing that they had killed the Messiah, they asked Peter and the other disciples, Men, Brothers, what shall we do. Peter told them to repent and get baptized and they would receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:36-38. All followers of the Apostles knew what the Holy Spirit was. When the ones mentioned at Acts 19:1-6.
The Jews, because they were in a Covenant relationship with God, and had turned away, they had to get Baptized two times, one for the forgiveness of the sins of forsaking The Mosaic Law Covenant, and another time to receive the Holy Spirit, which was actually given as a down payment, because when they would be resurrected they would go to heaven to be Co-Rulers with Jesus. John wrote about this at John 3:3-8, and Paul wrote about this at Romans 8:6-17.
Because God is a Spirit He does not do things with material hands, but the Bible mentions that The Holy Spirit is the same as God's fingers, or hands. Matthew 12:28 and Luke 11:20 show they are the same. Notice Exodus 8:19, where the magic practicing priests admitted that what was done was the finger of God. Also at Psalms 8:3,4, the great works of God we're done with His fingers, or Spirit.
At 1Corinthians 12:1-13 we are told about many things that the Spirit does, but that it is the same Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the way that God gets things done, it His power, and He sends His Spirit to do all things that He wants done. As flesh and blood we use our hands, God is a Spirit, He uses the Holy Spirt to accomplish all things.
 
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