Is the holy spirit and Mohammad (s) in the Gospels best understood by Shiite Islam?

[IndigoChild5559]

The devil can't do miracles, only God's chosen can. The Bible has talked about miracles as proof for God's chosen.

How do you explain the fact that miracles occur in religions other than Christianity? Miracles are never evidence of any truth claim.

 

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How do you explain the fact that miracles occur in religions other than Christianity? Miracles are never evidence of any truth claim.

They are proofs for those witnessing them. Historically if they are proven, they are not the full proofs they are to the witnessing.

The Quran says "And those who disbelieve say why not a sign regarding him be revealed? You are only a warner and for every people there is a guide."

This means you showing them miracles will not make them believe but it's a warning and proof regardless if people accept them or not and for every people there is a guide who can perform such miracles by God's permission.

Today, there is no Guide in public who performs these miracles, but I believe the 12th Successor of Mohammad (s) can meet people and show them such signs and miracles.

That is among the reasons why we are taught in prayers from Ahlulbayt (a) to ask to see him and be guided by his hands.

Miracles are definitely proof for those who witness them. But they get called "stories of the ancients" as time passes on, and this is one reason among many that God appoints in all times a Guide. So that we can witness miracles in all times.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They are proofs for those witnessing them.

They are proof of absolutely nothing. They CANNOT be proof, since these different religions make contrary truth claims.

 

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They are proof of absolutely nothing. They CANNOT be proof, since these different religions make contrary truth claims.

The false Prophets of Baal could not perform the miracles they claimed they could, and Elijah (a) exposed them to be false in their claim to be able to perform miracles like him. Miracles he is able to do because he is God's trustee and God has given him that ability and he does so by God's will and permission.

 

[2ndpillar]

Salam

There seems to a mental block. Christians believe trinity is clearly described in Gospels, and holy spirit is 1/3 of God or God or a god or a job description of God. As such when Jesus (a) talked about the praised one (which is what Mohammad (s) means) coming after him and him being the holy spirit, the Christians go see it can't be about Mohammad (s), it's about the holy spirit.

Today I am going to challenge this view. Mainly, it's to look at the holy spirit as an occupied position by the chosen and anointed kings from humanity.

John 9:5 FBV
"While I'm here in the world I am the light of the world.”

The context:

As Jesus was passing by, he saw a man born blind. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, why was this man born blind? Was it him who sinned, or was it his parents?”
3Jesus replied, “It wasn't because of the sins of the man or his parents. But so that what God can do may be shown in his life, 4we have to keep on doing the work of the one who sent me as long as it is still daytime. The night is coming when no one can work. 5While I'm here in the world I am the light of the world.”


This shown that night is when light of God is not bright, and when it's bright and everyone is exposed to it, it's called "day".

Jesus (a) then says he is the light of the world. He didn't say just the light of those who he preached to, but the whole world.

Now, if Jesus is the light of the world, then he is the holy spirit as long as he's here:

Guard the truth that was entrusted to you through the Holy Spirit who lives in us.


Jesus being the light of the world is synonymous with the role of the holy spirit lighting the way for the disciples, except the holy spirit is never not on earth while Jesus is only the light when he is on earth.

So the question is who occupies this position before Jesus and after Jesus?

To this, you have to remember the talk of Moses and Elijah:

Luke 9:30 FBV
Two men appeared in brilliant glory. They were Moses and Elijah, and they began to talk with Jesus.

Matthew 17:4 FBV
Peter spoke up, saying to Jesus, “Lord, it's really good to be here. If you want I'll make three shelters—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”


Now those who witnessed Elijah knew he came, but how to prove it to those who did not witness him? For this, Jesus (a) uses philosophy that John (a) is like Elijah (a) and this is to prove Elijah (a) has come.

But how does it prove it. Well they killed John (a) the Baptist and didn't recognize him, and so if Jesus (a) ascends to heaven, it makes sense that one alive from the household of guidance be here on earth, and so this proves the wisdom of why Elijah (a) was kept alive by God.

Now if you look at the description of the praised/one often translated as comforter, it becomes obvious, it's about a person who will come in the open and teach the truth and remind them in the same way Jesus (a) reminded of the truth.

And of course, like all chosen humans, he will occupy the position of the holy spirit and is also the holy spirit just as Jesus (a) was the light of the world so long as he was in this world.

Mohammad (a) was the light of the world so long as he was in the world. Today, the light of the world is the Mahdi (a) and we await his return in public, while he is here on earth, hidden like Elijah (a) was hidden between Jesus (a) and Mohammad (a) but was the light of the world, just as John (a) was the light of the world before Jesus (a) but people didn't recognize him and killed him (John (a)).

The holy spirit is synonymous with position of the leader:

O God,
surely Thou hast confirmed Thy religion in all times
with an Imam whom Thou hast set up
as a guidepost to Thy servants
and a lighthouse in Thy lands,
after his cord has been joined to Thy cord!
Thou hast appointed him the means to Thy good pleasure,
made obeying him obligatory,
cautioned against disobeying him,
and commanded
following his commands,
abandoning his prohibitions,
and that no forward-goer go ahead of him
or back-keeper keep back from him!218
So he is the preservation of the shelter-seekers,
the cave of the faithful,
the handhold of the adherents,
and the radiance of the worlds!

-Du'a of the day of Arafa, Sahifa Sajjadiya

And as one of the subtle miracles of Quran


And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Elyas, all of the righteous. (Quran, in chapter 6)

Elyas (a) (Elijah) is mentioned two times in Quran, and this is one of the places.

Yahya (John) (a) succeeded Zakariya (a), Isa (a) succeeded Yahya (a), and Elyas (a) although before Jesus (a) was born, takes on the position of the holy spirit AFTER Jesus (a) leaves to heaven.

This verse is a miracle, and to understand it, like many verses in Quran, is to understand the essence of Islam.

To understand "Islam", one must understand the environment of the sons of the Persians, in the 9th and 10th century, who actually wrote the background history of Islam, and the religions from which they expropriated their stories, which includes the Jewish writings, the Zoroaster writings, and the Christian writings. Mhmd (Mohammad) means the "praised one", and in the Koran, for which no full copy doesn't exist prior to the 8th century, it refers to Mhmd, the praised one, in conjunction with Isa Ibn Maryam (Yeshua). There is no independent historical character by the name of Muhammad, nor of a world trading center of Mecca in the early 7th century in southwestern Arabia, which was supposedly, according to Islamic writings, the home of Abraham, Solomon, and Eve. It is all a political narrative made up with regards to the northern Arabs, versus the southern Arabs, using the other religions to frame a long lasting book narrative. As for the the "anointing"/"comforter"/holy Spirit, that entity was present in the time of the writings of 1 John 2;27. As for the Koran calling Isa Ibn Maryam/Yeshua a prophet, the "anointed Yeshua taught one was to beware of the false prophets, who will be known by their rotten fruit (Matthew 7). As for what the "book"/OT, the Spirit of God, says about the nations who come against Jerusalem and Judah/Jews (Joel 3:1-2), they will all be judged, and according to another prophet, Zechariah 14:14, apparently, they will after being defeated, will loose all their gold and silver to Judah/Jews. According to other prophets, Daniel 2:45 & Jeremiah 31:11, the nations will be destroyed/crushed. Which is to say, that this historical fictional character Mohammad, along with his followers, who think he is real and follows the Spirit of God, in killing Jews and Christians, will end up on the wrong end of the stick according to the Koran's own pronounce prophet, Isa Ibn Maryam (Yeshua), along with the prophets of God, per the book of the Jews, which according to the Koran, is from God. .

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The false Prophets of Baal could not perform the miracles they claimed they could, and Elijah (a) exposed them to be false in their claim to be able to perform miracles like him. Miracles he is able to do because he is God's trustee and God has given him that ability and he does so by God's will and permission.

I'm telling you that I've personally seen healings and other types of miracles in other religions. Strange things happen in real life. They are not evidence of the truth claims of the people they happen to.

 

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I'm telling you that I've personally seen healings and other types of miracles in other religions. Strange things happen in real life. They are not evidence of the truth claims of the people they happen to.

If people can perform miracles and are not chosen by God and are not truthful in their claims, it would prove Islam false.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If people can perform miracles and are not chosen by God and are not truthful in their claims, it would prove Islam false.

I do not believe Islam is true, but my belief has nothing to do with the fact that miracles exist in non-muslim religions. Miracles are not proof of truth statements.

 

[Link]

I do not believe Islam is true, but my belief has nothing to do with the fact that miracles exist in non-muslim religions. Miracles are not proof of truth statements.

It would disprove Islam if what you say is true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It would disprove Islam if what you say is true.

Nah. Much worry about nothing.

 

[Link]

Miracles are proof of the statements made by miracle doers per Quran. So it would disprove Islam if what you say is true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Miracles are proof of the statements made by miracle doers per Quran. So it would disprove Islam if what you say is true.

No. Miracles do not prove truth statements.

 

[Link]

No. Miracles do not prove truth statements.

That's your view and if that's true, Islam is false.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's your view and if that's true, Islam is false.

I just don't understand why you think that. The first thing just doesn't lead to the second thing.

 

[Link]

I just don't understand why you think that. The first thing just doesn't lead to the second thing.

It's because a great portion of Quran is justifying why miracles are proof for the performer. This especially said in spirit of Mohammad (s) doing them and that they should be seen as proof and not mere sorcery or power not directly given and trusted by God.

So if miracles aren't proof, then Pharaoh is justified in denying Moses (a) for example.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's because a great portion of Quran is justifying why miracles are proof for the performer.

So? The Bible in some places indicates that if you obey God's commandments you will be blessed. But we know that this is not true also -- that hard times and suffering do not indicate that someone is sinful. The thing that needs to go is the Muslim insistance that the Quran is without error, just as Jews and Chrsitians need to be honest about problems with the Bible. I really and truly do not understand this need for a perfect flawless book. I know the Torah has problems, and it doesn't stop me from believing in God or obeying the 613 commandments.

 

[Muffled]

The devil can't do miracles, only God's chosen can. The Bible has talked about miracles as proof for God's chosen.

This prediction of the antiChrist which I believe will be the incarnation of the devil says he will: Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence,3 and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,

 

[Muffled]

It's because a great portion of Quran is justifying why miracles are proof for the performer. This especially said in spirit of Mohammad (s) doing them and that they should be seen as proof and not mere sorcery or power not directly given and trusted by God.

So if miracles aren't proof, then Pharaoh is justified in denying Moses (a) for example.

I believe that is a contest as to which gods or God is more powerful:
Matt 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

I believe God is omnipotent and the devil is defeated and thrown into hell.