Is the Bible the inspired word of God?

[outhouse]

No it doesn't.

then that requires evidence.

no evidence but conclusion is the definition of faith

what evidence do you have?

 

[sojourner]

then that requires evidence.

no evidence but conclusion is the definition of faith

what evidence do you have?

Evidence for what?

 

[Alceste]

But again, God created us with a range of ways of being. shouldn't the bible, written by us, reflect that range? what kind of relationship can be built if it's just about all the good stuff? We wouldn't be able to connect with it. Part of the reason for the bad stuff is to remind us that we are, in part, "bad." We're not perfect. But being in relationship with God isn't about being perfect. It's about being reconciled. Notice that God always uses low-down and broken people: Adam, Moses, Jacob, David, Rahab, etc. The "chosen" people are the underdogs, not the powerful and perfect ones.

I am specifically thinking of the parts where God Himself is purportedly saying and doing things that reflect the absolute worst of human nature. Like giving Job a hard time to test his loyalty, or sticking some tasty apples in the garden of Eden and forbidding Adam and Eve from eating them, or telling an army to slaughter an entire village except for the rapable girls, or drowning the whole population of the earth in a big hissy fit because they're not doing enough worshiping.

Dickens does a better job of using the underdogs in a brutal society to communicate the scope of human nature and experience, and the value of faith in something better.

 

[Alceste]

To be a little clearer, what I am saying is that the inspiration behind the Bible seems to be human authoritarians doing their level best to justify their own philosophy and behavior by projecting authoritarian attributes onto their God. If there is any such thing as divine inspiration, I would expect the resulting philosophy to be superior to anything ordinary, flawed human beings could dream up. I would expect some degree of universality as well - it should appeal equally to all people, and make them all yearn to transcend their worst qualities.

 

[sojourner]

I would expect the resulting philosophy to be superior to anything ordinary, flawed human beings could dream up.

God works through human agency.

I would expect some degree of universality as well - it should appeal equally to all people.

There is some universality to the Bible. But I don't see why should appeal equally to all people, because not everyone comes out of the same culture.

 

[outhouse]

Evidence for what?

revelation

 

[outhouse]

God works through human agency.

There is some universality to the Bible. But I don't see why should appeal equally to all people, because not everyone comes out of the same culture.

you dont know what god works through because there is ZERO evidence he has ever done such, or even exist at all .

yet now you attribute "work's through"

 

[waitasec]

No, by relying on revelation, which isn't the same thing, at all, as "blind faith."

3rd party revelation is taking someones word at face value based on nothing other than blind faith.

 

[sojourner]

revelation

Evidence that it has happened to me.

 

[Alceste]

God works through human agency.

There is some universality to the Bible. But I don't see why should appeal equally to all people, because not everyone comes out of the same culture.

That's my point. The philosophy of a hypothetical God who created everything and everyone would be equally accessible to all cultures. The tribalism of Judaism and Christianity conflict with that logic.

The driving philosophy of the Bible is the very opposite of universality. To kick things off, one small tribe gets all of God's attention. Outsiders are considered evil scum and usually punished or annihilated for following other spiritual paths. Then God presumably changes His mind and decides to be more compassionate, starting with living a human life. But He is careful to insist that no-one on earth will ever have the benefit of His love without first becoming a Christian. This is over a thousand years before there is any possibility of three quarters of the world's population ever even hearing of Christianity, and despite the fact that many people will inevitably hear of Christianity and not be all that keen to become one, for whatever reason.

Other spiritual writings from the same time frame or earlier do a much better job of expressing universally accessible ideals. The Tao te Ching is my favorite.

The way of Heaven
Is like drawing a bow
Lower that which is high
Raise that which is low
Reduce that which has excess
Add to that which is lacking

The way of heaven
Reduces the excessive
And adds to the lacking

The way of people is not so
It reduces the lacking
In order to offer to the excessive

Who can offer their excess to the world?
Only those who have the way of heaven
Therefore sages act without conceit
Achieve without claiming credit
They do not wish to display their virtue!​

 

[sojourner]

you dont know what god works through because there is ZERO evidence he has ever done such, or even exist at all .

yet now you attribute "work's through"

Anytime we talk about God we use metaphor, and we work within those metaphors. Therefore, within the metaphors I'm using, God works through human agency. In the discussion of divine inspiration, God's existence is assumed.

 

[sojourner]

3rd party revelation is taking someones word at face value based on nothing other than blind faith.

Not quite. If their language and other reactions are consistent with those of others who claim revelation, that, in itself is some evidence. I prefer to say "trust" rather than "blind faith." I trust that other people have revelations.

 

[Alceste]

you dont know what god works through because there is ZERO evidence he has ever done such, or even exist at all .

yet now you attribute "work's through"

I don't disagree with you, but I do find these discussions are sometimes more interesting if I accept certain propositions as hypothetically true. So, let's say there is such a thing as a God (hypothetically speaking), who is also a writer. Given that the hypothetical attributes of this hypothetical God are "omniscient, benevolent creator of everything", what kind of book would He write? Would it be the Bible?

I say no - not the whole thing. Maybe the Song of Solomon, but not Deuteronomy.

 

[waitasec]

Not quite. If their language and other reactions are consistent with those of others who claim revelation, that, in itself is some evidence.

which is not when it comes to the bible

I prefer to say "trust" rather than "blind faith." I trust that other people have revelations.

i trust people are wishful thinkers...

 

[sojourner]

which is not when it comes to the bible

Huh?

i trust people are wishful thinkers...

Your loss.

 

[waitasec]

Huh?

the language and other reations are not always consistent with others who claim revelation

Your loss.

or my gain

 

[outhouse]

I don't disagree with you, but I do find these discussions are sometimes more interesting if I accept certain propositions as hypothetically true. So, let's say there is such a thing as a God (hypothetically speaking), who is also a writer. Given that the hypothetical attributes of this hypothetical God are "omniscient, benevolent creator of everything", what kind of book would He write? Would it be the Bible?

I say no - not the whole thing. Maybe the Song of Solomon, but not Deuteronomy.

what we see in total is a reflection of mans imagination through mythology mirroring cultural changes.

If there was a god I think we would see a uniform message for all, not one that evolves and develops human charactoristics

 

[outhouse]

Anytime we talk about God we use metaphor, and we work within those metaphors. Therefore, within the metaphors I'm using, God works through human agency. In the discussion of divine inspiration, God's existence is assumed.

so in another word faith?

 

[waitasec]

Anytime we talk about God we use metaphor, and we work within those metaphors. Therefore, within the metaphors I'm using, God works through human agency. In the discussion of divine inspiration, God's existence is assumed.

where is the evidence for this, assuming god exists?

 

[Alceste]

what we see in total is a reflection of mans imagination through mythology mirroring cultural changes.

If there was a god I think we would see a uniform message for all, not one that evolves and develops human charactoristics

Yup, that is what I'm saying too. Hypothetically speaking, literature inspired by a benevolent, omniscient creator God would be timeless, universally approachable, and lacking all the telltale characteristics of a uniquely human perspective, such as xenophobia. The entire OT is basically a long-winded apologetic for extreme xenophobia. Therefore, it doesn't seem to be inspired, to me. The NT comes a little closer here and there, but defeats itself with the claim that there is only one path to God, belonging to one religious ideology embraced by one particular group of humans. Such a claim simply could not come from a benevolent, omniscient creator deity.