Is the Bible promoting genocide!?

[Galileo]

Here are just a couple passages from the Bible that seem to promote rape and genocide.

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


Note that in both of these passages an entire civilization is wiped out with the exception of the young virgin girls. What do you suppose a seemingly blood thirsty army on the war path would want with a bunch of virgin girls?



I now open the floor to all.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Are the above two passages from the Bible merely a record of events as they happened? Is there anything in these two passages to indicate that the Israelites were carrying out instructions as explicitly commanded by God? Much of the Bible, I understand, is a record of historical events as they occurred. The protagonists may all have been believers in a particular God, but the question is - were they acting on the specific instructions of God? If they weren't, the Bible cannot be accused of promoting genocide.

 

[Archer]

Deuteronomy 7:2 (King James Version)


2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them : neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.

7:20 Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.

7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

The link below has much information. The fact is God does not play, though we are under the new covenant there is much to be learned about what God don't like. There are examples in the Bible of how to conduct war and if a crime is committed how to handle that up to and including destruction of an entire village.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...S5NJRxV1celZRWN6dl4Dvx6w#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[footprints]

Here are just a couple passages from the Bible that seem to promote rape and genocide.

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


Note that in both of these passages an entire civilization is wiped out with the exception of the young virgin girls. What do you suppose a seemingly blood thirsty army on the war path would want with a bunch of virgin girls?



I now open the floor to all.

Look it can be seen and looked upon as promoting genocide, if you want to look at it this way. Else it could be looked upon as something which should not be done and never to be repeated. A persons own common sense, logic and reason will work it out in whatever way appeases their intelligence better.

Where the old testament is concerned, it must be remembered that according to christians, Jesus was sent to put them back on the right path again, and not to buy into all this violence. Jesus promoted love and peace and was more akin to the deity in the Garden of Eden than one who wanted to smite everybody.

 

[Archer]

Look it can be seen and looked upon as promoting genocide, if you want to look at it this way. Else it could be looked upon as something which should not be done and never to be repeated. A persons own common sense, logic and reason will work it out in whatever way appeases their intelligence better.

Where the old testament is concerned, it must be remembered that according to Christians, Jesus was sent to put them back on the right path again, and not to buy into all this violence. Jesus promoted love and peace and was more akin to the deity in the Garden of Eden than one who wanted to smite everybody.

To add to this, we are talking about the creator! Genocide is really a term for man as God created one genus and that is man, man comes in a variety of flavors but all are still the same. The Jews were, according to the texts, Gods chosen and therefore would clear the land with the hand of God.

Let us not forget God's commands on how to treat slaves and aliens (release slaves, feed and treat aliens well). Dont forget the 7 year cycles. Please take it all in context don't only consider the actions but also the reasoning behind such actions. God wiped out all but one family during the flood because of disobedience, these examples being called genocide happened because the will of God was not being done in those areas.

 

[Dunemeister]

Answer: Obviously not. These passages have never become part of the central ethic of Israel or of the Church.

 

[Galileo]

Answer: Obviously not. These passages have never become part of the central ethic of Israel or of the Church.

I beg to differ. Have you forgotten a little movement called the Crusades. Not to mention the church backed the Nazi's during world war two.

To add to this, we are talking about the creator! Genocide is really a term for man as God created one genus and that is man, man comes in a variety of flavors but all are still the same. The Jews were, according to the texts, Gods chosen and therefore would clear the land with the hand of God.

This excuse has been used by many nations throughout history to justify genocide. Once again I mention the Nazi's, they too believed they were a superior race and thus had the "God given right" to wipe out all other races.

Let us not forget God's commands on how to treat slaves and aliens (release slaves, feed and treat aliens well). Dont forget the 7 year cycles. Please take it all in context don't only consider the actions but also the reasoning behind such actions. God wiped out all but one family during the flood because of disobedience, these examples being called genocide happened because the will of God was not being done in those areas.

I don't care what the reasoning is, the end does not always justify the means. Further more according to your reasoning every time some one is disobedient they should be annihilated, so if you have children and they misbehave they should be killed? That's sick.

Look it can be seen and looked upon as promoting genocide, if you want to look at it this way. Else it could be looked upon as something which should not be done and never to be repeated. A persons own common sense, logic and reason will work it out in whatever way appeases their intelligence better.

Well I should think that most people would have enough sense to never repeat these acts. The point I'm making is that all the fundamentalists declare that the bible is the indisputable word of God and every word of it should be taken literally. If we are to take the bible literally then that would suggest that the fundamentalists accept these stories as justified acts of "God's wrath."

Where the old testament is concerned, it must be remembered that according to christians, Jesus was sent to put them back on the right path again, and not to buy into all this violence. Jesus promoted love and peace and was more akin to the deity in the Garden of Eden than one who wanted to smite everybody.

I know what you're getting at. However I know many fundamentalists who refer to the old testament constantly when trying to argue against gay marriage, abortion, the teaching of evolution in the public schools, etc. In short they believe the Old Testament way of doing things is the right way of doing things despite the very point that you have just made. I have actually made the same point when arguing with fundamentalists and they just change the subject.

The link below has much information. The fact is God does not play, though we are under the new covenant there is much to be learned about what God don't like. There are examples in the Bible of how to conduct war and if a crime is committed how to handle that up to and including destruction of an entire village.

This is my point, there must be a better way of getting a point across than wiping out an entire people.

Are the above two passages from the Bible merely a record of events as they happened? Is there anything in these two passages to indicate that the Israelites were carrying out instructions as explicitly commanded by God? Much of the Bible, I understand, is a record of historical events as they occurred. The protagonists may all have been believers in a particular God, but the question is - were they acting on the specific instructions of God? If they weren't, the Bible cannot be accused of promoting genocide.

To answer your question here's the line that begins chapter 31 in the book of Numbers which is titled, in the NIV, as "Vengeance on the Midianites."

The Lord said to Moses, "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that you will be gathered to your people."

So yes, according to the fundamentalist who believe every word of the Bible, these barbarous acts were supposedly ordered by God himself. Now whether God really did order the destruction of other civilizations or not is beside the point. The point I'm making here is these men used the excuse that God told them to do these things in a poor attempt to justify their actions. Afterwards it was chronicled and passed down through history in the guise of "Holy Scripture," which as I have stated is taken literally by fundamentalists who actually believe that the Israelites were in fact doing the right thing by wiping out these other civilizations.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not to mention the church backed the Nazi's during world war two.

This is the most disgusting piece of bigoted distortion and willful ignorance that I've seen in a long time. Please demonstrate "the [sic!] church" endorsing/promoting the Shoah.

 

[K.Venugopal]

To answer your question here's the line that begins chapter 31 in the book of Numbers which is titled, in the NIV, as "Vengeance on the Midianites."

The Lord said to Moses, "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that you will be gathered to your people."

So yes, according to the fundamentalist who believe every word of the Bible, these barbarous acts were supposedly ordered by God himself. Now whether God really did order the destruction of other civilizations or not is beside the point. The point I'm making here is these men used the excuse that God told them to do these things in a poor attempt to justify their actions. Afterwards it was chronicled and passed down through history in the guise of "Holy Scripture," which as I have stated is taken literally by fundamentalists who actually believe that the Israelites were in fact doing the right thing by wiping out these other civilizations.

I get your point. But even if civilizations were destroyed on the command of God, the question is - does the recording of the same in the Bible indicate a principle that should be followed for the future also? In the recorded case, God had instructed Moses to seek vengeance. Can a biblical follower of today claim that God has instructed him similarly and therefore he has the right to seek vengence on his enemies? Moreover, can anyone of today be compared with Moses?

So I think the title of your thread at best could be "Did God promote genocide?" Going by the evidence, it would appear, yes. But the recording of it in the Bible does not tantamount to the Bible promoting genocide.

 

[Archer]

I see it is pointless to mention that we are talking about GOD here!!! God does no wrong only because he is GOD!!!! If wars were conducted and criminal punishments were carried out as in the Bible the world would be a much safer place.

It is easy to blame but can you find your own faults?

Killing your own children for being disobedient is Old Law not just a what if they.

 

[Zorro1227]

This is one of the major problems I have with the Bible. As a women who has close friend who have been raped and molested, it pains me to think that people can worship such a heartless god. I had this arguement with a girl in my religion class. She basically said that god must be ok with rape if he was ok with it in the Bible. This is why I am not a christian.

 

[Archer]

This is one of the major problems I have with the Bible. As a women who has close friend who have been raped and molested, it pains me to think that people can worship such a heartless god. I had this arguement with a girl in my religion class. She basically said that god must be ok with rape if he was ok with it in the Bible. This is why I am not a christian.

Here is where there are issues. (I do understand where you are coming from and I will make no "explanations" or "interpretations" as I take writing for what it is.)

To answer in a way that will draw just as much fire: Man canonized (all men no women) the Bible and therefore I personally think that some things are distorted and omitted.

Without going into it and letting the interpreting be done by others many have said that virgin was metaphoric for innocence and God does not punish the innocent, however take the texts as written and you may reach a different conclusion.

We must remember that to grow a community you need women and virgins are seen as the apex of fertility. Why kill the women if you could know them and propagate and grow the nation of Israel?

 

[Zorro1227]

Here is where there are issues. (I do understand where you are coming from and I will make no "explanations" or "interpretations" as I take writing for what it is.)

To answer in a way that will draw just as much fire: Man canonized (all men no women) the Bible and therefore I personally think that some things are distorted and omitted.

Without going into it and letting the interpreting be done by others many have said that virgin was metaphoric for innocence and God does not punish the innocent, however take the texts as written and you may reach a different conclusion.

We must remember that to grow a community you need women and virgins are seen as the apex of fertility. Why kill the women if you could know them and propagate and grow the nation of Israel?

1. Yes I 100% agree. I believe that is why homosexuality is a sin. Just my opinion

2. Yes I believe virgin means a woman of maritable age. I could be wrong

3. Again I agree...However, it is still RAPE. You cannot kidnap and force women to marry you.

 

[Archer]

1. Yes I 100% agree. I believe that is why homosexuality is a sin. Just my opinion

2. Yes I believe virgin means a woman of maritable age. I could be wrong

3. Again I agree...However, it is still RAPE. You cannot kidnap and force women to marry you.

Now here is the problem: If the women decided they wanted nothing to do with the Jews and would rather die were the killed or forced into marriage? Either way I feel that man has had his hands in the Bible for too long and uses religion as an excuse for human inequities. Why try to explain why to your family when you can say God commanded it? The crusades are the biggest examples on the Christian side if things as they believed the Pope spoke for God. On the Muslim (radical) side 911?

Man uses God to justify sin and it is reprehensible.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I see it is pointless to mention that we are talking about GOD here!!! God does no wrong only because he is GOD!!!!

If God does no wrong and if we see in the Bible God doing wrong, it can either mean that the God talked about in the Bible is no God at all or we have come to the wrong conclusion about God doing wrong.

If wars were conducted and criminal punishments were carried out as in the Bible the world would be a much safer place.

But who is to carry out wars and dole out criminal punishments like in the Bible? Does even the RC Church consider itself authorized to do it? Maybe in its heyday a Pope could have done all that. Today the only role the Church has is to keep its folk together and try to gather new harvests.

 

[Archer]

If God does no wrong and if we see in the Bible God doing wrong, it can either mean that the God talked about in the Bible is no God at all or we have come to the wrong conclusion about God doing wrong. But who is to carry out wars and dole out criminal punishments like in the Bible? Does even the RC Church consider itself authorized to do it? Maybe in its heyday a Pope could have done all that. Today the only role the Church has is to keep its folk together and try to gather new harvests.

I qualified this in another post , man has had his hands in the bible.

Let he who is without Sin cast the first stone. No man or nation has the right other than self defense or defense of the community.

 

[Zorro1227]

Now here is the problem: If the women decided they wanted nothing to do with the Jews and would rather die were the killed or forced into marriage? Either way I feel that man has had his hands in the Bible for too long and uses religion as an excuse for human inequities. Why try to explain why to your family when you can say God commanded it? The crusades are the biggest examples on the Christian side if things as they believed the Pope spoke for God. On the Muslim (radical) side 911?

Man uses God to justify sin and it is reprehensible.

I totally agree with you. I know many people who use the Bible to their own personal advantage.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Are the above two passages from the Bible merely a record of events as they happened? Is there anything in these two passages to indicate that the Israelites were carrying out instructions as explicitly commanded by God? Much of the Bible, I understand, is a record of historical events as they occurred. The protagonists may all have been believers in a particular God, but the question is - were they acting on the specific instructions of God? If they weren't, the Bible cannot be accused of promoting genocide.

It's pretty much accepted by most main-stream scholars that these events never happened. Pretty much all archaeological evidence says that the Israelites were actually native to Canaan, and later in their history, they wrote these stories in order to develop a sense of national identity. Especially during and after the Babylonian captivity.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I beg to differ. Have you forgotten a little movement called the Crusades. Not to mention the church backed the Nazi's during world war two.

This is just retarded. The Church did not "back the Nazi's". If you're going to make claims like this, you better be prepared to back them up with credible references.

This excuse has been used by many nations throughout history to justify genocide. Once again I mention the Nazi's, they too believed they were a superior race and thus had the "God given right" to wipe out all other races.

Yeah... so did several other bronze age societies. The Israelites were no different. The difference is that the cleansing of the land never happened, where-as the holocaust did.

I don't care what the reasoning is, the end does not always justify the means. Further more according to your reasoning every time some one is disobedient they should be annihilated, so if you have children and they misbehave they should be killed? That's sick.

He's obviously a vengeful god early on in the text. As you read along, you'll notice a change...

Well I should think that most people would have enough sense to never repeat these acts. The point I'm making is that all the fundamentalists declare that the bible is the indisputable word of God and every word of it should be taken literally. If we are to take the bible literally then that would suggest that the fundamentalists accept these stories as justified acts of "God's wrath."

Yes... we all know that fund-a-gelicals have their head so far up their *** they can smell their tonsils. However, saying that the mainstream adherents of these religions have used this to justify genocide is just stupid.

I know what you're getting at. However I know many fundamentalists who refer to the old testament constantly when trying to argue against gay marriage, abortion, the teaching of evolution in the public schools, etc. In short they believe the Old Testament way of doing things is the right way of doing things despite the very point that you have just made. I have actually made the same point when arguing with fundamentalists and they just change the subject.

Again, fundys = wrong.

This is my point, there must be a better way of getting a point across than wiping out an entire people.

Wait... so let me get this right... Genocide = bad?

To answer your question here's the line that begins chapter 31 in the book of Numbers which is titled, in the NIV, as "Vengeance on the Midianites."

The Lord said to Moses, "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that you will be gathered to your people."

So yes, according to the fundamentalist who believe every word of the Bible, these barbarous acts were supposedly ordered by God himself. Now whether God really did order the destruction of other civilizations or not is beside the point. The point I'm making here is these men used the excuse that God told them to do these things in a poor attempt to justify their actions. Afterwards it was chronicled and passed down through history in the guise of "Holy Scripture," which as I have stated is taken literally by fundamentalists who actually believe that the Israelites were in fact doing the right thing by wiping out these other civilizations.

No it wasn't. It never happened. Plain and simple.

 

[Perfect Circle]

[snip]Again I agree...However, it is still RAPE. You cannot kidnap and force women to marry you.

I guess that's why my Russian mail order bride is always so mad...