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Is the Bible corrupt?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Zxzyx, May 3, 2005.

  1. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Montalban,

    First of all let me ask you first what holy means? Does the holiness of the Bible means that the Bible is free from mistakes? Mistakes here means as for example:

    At a particular time, 'A' says that 'B' is sick, but another person, say 'C' says that 'B' is not sick. Are both informations true, or are both false, or only one is true? What is your reaction if I say both are true?
     
  2. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    I'm still waiting for another Muslim to answer my questions. However if I answer yours, you might answer mine.

    Which parts of the Bible are corrupted? When did it happen, and by whom? How does this tie in with your belief that God's words can't be corrupted.

    Now, to answer you. I believe that the Bible is inspired by God. I don't treat it as the only book of my faith. I believe in it in the context of Christian tradition; and it is in that context it should be interpreted; and it is in that context that it is error free. I hope this answers you. Please let me know if I have misunderstood what you want.

    As to your hypothetical sickness can be relative and so both could be true. I don't wish to be bogged down, though, in a rather vague hypothetical; hence it would be of great help if you could tell me which verses you think are corrupted.

    I also hope that you will be kind enough to answer my questions (above).
     
  3. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Cordoba,
    I believe what he's asking for is some substantiated fact that the bible has been corrupted. Which verses and what proof is offered that it has been corrupted.
     
  4. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Cordoba,
    I believe what he's asking for is some substantiated fact that the bible has been corrupted. Which verses and what proof is offered that it has been corrupted.
     
  5. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Sure, I will answer your questions as long as I have knowledge in it, Montalban.

    I will answer these but my question plays an essential role in my answers so please answer my question first. You got the point of my first question but not the second one. Another example: At a particular time, A says B has 3 kids while C says B has 10 kids. Are both true, are both wrong, or is only one true?
     
  6. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    This is pretty much what I want. A claim has been made that the Bible is corrupt. If this is so, then it follows that specific verses must be corrupt, and I want to know which ones are.
     
  7. iaminterface

    iaminterface Member

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    A person can't know exact versus that have been changed, but they can speculate general ideas that are. For example, some people think that Jesus was changed in the bible from being a mortal prophet, to the immortal son of God. Others think certain books were changed and certain books weren't allowed into the Bible. I believe this is what they mean when they say the Bible is corrupted, just that it has been changed. And no one can truly deny that is has been changed. Through countless translations parts are always written out of context.
     
  8. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    So they just have a 'feeling' for it? Are you saying that this is what Muslims believe? (Can you cite any Islamic references that say this?)
    If I have a book and you mistranslate it, that doesn't make my book erroneous, just yours.

    The whole notion of the Bible being out of whack is very much based on a notion that the Bible just stands on its own anyway. I am an Orthodox Christian and we don't ascribe to the 'sola scriptura' school of belief, but rather believe in the Bible as interpreted through tradition.
     
  9. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Great.

    What you are asking is that if I believe an example you gives contradicts, does it contradict? I would say yes, as in the example
    Who was the first Muslim?

    Abraham/Jacob.
    Koran: 2:132
    The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
    Moses.
    7:143
    And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.
    Muhammad.
    39:12
    And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

    These contradict each other.
     
  10. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    sort of like the question of the lineage of Jesus?
     
  11. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    You forgot that Islam doesn't exist not until prophet Muhammad came. You can't find anything in 2:132 saying that Abraham or Jacob was the first Muslim. Moses in 7:143 believes in God, the same God in Islam, the same concept of God that was taught since Adam was made.Moses was saying that he was the first one to believe in Allah at his particular moment of living time. It does not say anything that Moses was the first muslim, because Islam hasn't came at that time yet. Muhammad is the first of those who are muslims, because Muhammad brought Islam. So, those verses above does not contradict.


    Now if theres a holy book that has contradictions in its contents, will you still be calling it holy? No, because holy book contains words of God, which is impossible for mistakes. If so, then you cannot trust the contents, the holiness and the truth of the that 'holy' book, because it has contradictions. There is for sure some human hands play in role in it that modifies the contents of the 'holy' book. Or in other words, it is not holy.

    Now one last question before I answer yours. If in Bible, there are contradictions between its statements, do you still think that Bible is a holy book?
     
  12. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Why not start a thread?
     
  13. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    You forgot what it means by the term "Moslem" which is one who submits. Muslims are so confused about this very point that a cursory view of the debate at

    http://forums.understanding-islam.com/community/showthread.php?p=9079&mode=threaded will show many a different answer as to who was the first Moslem.

    Though I don't claim any of them to speak with 'authority' they are not alone....

    "The misunderstanding and poor interpretation here stems from their lack of understanding of the word Islam (Submission). In spite of the fact that God tells us in the Quran that Islam (Submission to God Alone) is as old as Abraham who was the first Muslim (see 2:128, 2:131, 2:133) and who was the first to name us Muslims (22:78), still the Muslim scholars today insist that Islam is confined to being the religion of the Quran !!!"

    http://www.submission.org/abrogation.html

    Muslims claim that Jesus was a Muslim, and that Alexander the Great was too. So your interpretation has so far been only backed by your opinion.

    'If' is the operative word. From that axiom derives the rest of you argument.

    I don't believe the Bible was written by God, but by men inspired by God, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible is Holy.

    I would still like you to answer me which verses you think are not corrupted. I can't wait.
     
  14. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Here's another Koranic contradiction....

    Many Muslims claim that the Koran predicts embryology. They have sent me the following as proof...

    Sura 96:2 Who created man from a clot.


    However, here is a list of Koranic verses on embryology: you will see that the Koran says man's origins come in so many different ways, from water, from loam, from a clot, from dust, from potter's clay, a drop of fluid, from a seed etc. One is bound to be 'close' to something real.

    "The Qur'an and Embryology

    All quotations are taken from Pickthal's translation unless otherwise indicated.

    3:59 Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

    4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever mighty, wise.
    7:172 And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify themselves, saying: Am I not you Lord? They said: Yea, verily. we testify. This was lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware.

    11:61 You have no other God save Him. He brought you forth from the earth and hath made you husband of it.

    13:8 Allah knoweth that which every female beareth and that which the wombs absorb and that which they grow. And everything with Him is measured.

    15:26 Verily we created man out of potter's clay of black mud altered.

    15:28 And remember when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered.

    15:33 (Iblis) said: Why should I prostrate myself unto a mortal whom Thou hast created out of potter's clay of black mud altered?

    16:4 He created man from a drop of fluid, yet, behold! he is an open opponent.

    17:61 And when We said unto the angels: Fall down prostrate before Adam and they fell prostrate all save Iblis, He said: Shall I fall prostrate before that which Thou hast created of clay?

    18:37 And his comrade (Abel?) while he disputed with him (Cain?) exclaimed: Disbelievest in Him Who created thee of dust, then of a drop (of seed), and then fashioned thee a man?

    19:67 Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?

    22:5 O mankind! If you are in any doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make it clear for you. And we cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward we bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you is he who dieth (young), and among you is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that after knowledge, he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth).

    23:12 Verily we created man from a product of wet earth (loam).

    23:13 Then placed him (as a drop of seed) in a safe lodging;

    23:14 Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little clot bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!

    25:54 And it is He who hath created man from water, and hath appointed from him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever powerful.

    30:19 He bringeth forth the living from the dead, and He bringeth forth the dead from the living, and He reviveth the earth after her death. And even so will ye be brought forth.

    30:20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, varying widely!

    30:21 And of His signs is this: He created for you helpmates from yourselves that ye might find rest in them.

    32:7 Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay,

    32:8 Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;

    32:9 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit: and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!

    35:11 Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (male and female?). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book. Lo! that is easy for Allah.

    38:71 When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire

    38:72 And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate.

    39:6 He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah your Lord. There is no God save Him. How then are ye turned away?

    40:67 He it is who created you from dust, then from a drop (of seed), then from a clot, then bringeth you forth as a child, then ordaineth full strength and afterward that ye become old men though some among you die before-and that ye reach an appointed term, that haply ye may understand.

    49:13 O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another....

    52:35 Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators?

    52:36 Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing!

    53:45 And that he created the two spouses, the male and the female,

    53:46 From a drop (of seed) when it is poured forth;

    53:47 And that He hath ordained the second bringing forth.

    56:58 Have ye seen that which ye emit?
    56:59 Do you create it or are We the Creator?

    64:3 He created the heavens and the earth with truth, and He shaped you and made good your shapes....

    71:14 When He created you by (divers) stages?

    75:3 Thinketh man that We shall not assemble his bones?

    75:4 Yea, verily. Yea, We are able to restore his very fingers.

    75:37 Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?

    75:38 Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned:

    75:39 And made of him a pair, the male and female.

    76:2 Lo! We create man from a drop of thickened fluid to test him, so we make him hearing, knowing.

    80:18 From what thing doth He create him?
    80:19 From a drop of seed. He createth him and proportioneth him
    80:20 Then makeh the way easy for him,
    80:21 Then causeth him to die, and burieth him;
    80:22 Then when He will, He bringeth him again to life.

    86:5 So let man consider from what he is created.
    86:6 He is created from a gushing fluid
    86:7 That issued from between the loins and ribs.

    95:4 Surely we created man out of the best stature

    95:5 Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low

    96:2 Who created man from a clot.
    Part of list can be found at: http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i015.html
     
  15. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Muslims are not confused. It is you that does not understand (you should be able to differentiate between one who submits to God and one who is Muslim. One who submits to God does not have to mean that he/she is a Muslim, but one who is Muslim means that he/she submits to God). Moses in 7:143 was the first one to believe in Allah at that time. You should note that you are quoting a dialog between Moses and God. It is Moses who says that, not God. Muhammad in 39:12 was the first one to bow to Allah in Islam. A more accurate translation of 39:12 is :

    "And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."

    Nothing in the verses you said above claims Abraham to be the first Muslim. Nothing in 2:128, 2:131, 2:133, nor in 22:78.

    Muslims do claim Jesus as one who submits to Allah. But they do not claim Jesus as a Muslim.

    Holy should mean that it is free from contradictions and errors. Since it is written by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it should not contain errors, because Holy Spirit is also one part of the God in Christianity, and God never makes mistakes, true?

    And to answer your question, which part in the Bible contradicts, observe:

    John 8:14 : "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go."

    John 5:31: "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

    You have seen for yourself , that in one verse, it is true and in the other one, it is not true. Both of these verse are in the Bible and the one who says that is one person(Jesus). So which one is true? Is it normal a holy book contains errors like this? If Bible is truly inspired by God, it is impossible for contradictions between its contents. Except that it has been corrupted by human hands.

    Sorry I replied late, had an internet problem.
     
  16. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    I accept that you believe this to be so. However the Islamic sites I cited say otherwise. Therefore it is not 'me' being confused, as I am reliant upon the information provided by you and they, and they disagree, therefore there is confusion. You could argue that each unto yourselves is not confused about what you believe to be true - even though that 'truth' is different.

    You mean you don't. See also the thread about Alexander the Great; even some non-Muslims argue there that what you mean is the mere act of submission to God. Which of you is correct?
    Certainly God makes no mistakes because the measure of what is right, or good, is God Himself.
    See CARM's site for the confusion you have over John's words
    http://www.carm.org/diff/John8_14.htm

    They have a great list of passages that people get confused about, so you're not the only one

    However the question is which verses are corrupted. Not which contradict as a Bible could in theory continue not to contradict itself and still be progressively corrupted to giving the wrong message, as you believe. I have asked on several occassions, who corrupted it, when, where etc.

    Though I do take the point that a perfect God would not have contradictory verses that, if shown, would suggest corruption. However even there this is not necessarily so, because God might give a command for something at one time, and something else at another (being God, and knowing everything that He does), so, a mere comparison of the two seemingly contradictory commands would not equate to corruption.
     
  17. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    Zyzyx

    You said
    "On the subject of prophets, could I recommend reading 1 Kings 13. It tells of a little known prophet who doesn’t make a big impression in the Bible and is killed by a lion for disobedience. God sends him to speak on his behalf but God does not expect the people (especially King Jeroboam) to simply believe this man just because he said it. God performs miraculous signs through him to prove his prophet hood. This is consistent with all the prophets throughout the Bible up to and including Jesus. Muhammad on the other hand is the only one who does not and yet is seen my Muslims as the most important. Surely he, more than all the others should have given miraculous signs. I read in the Qur’an that several times Muhammad seems frustrated that he cannot perform any signs and it seemed the crowd were asking for them as proof. I believe he claimed that his recital should be proof enough but this is like saying ‘what I am saying is from God because I say so’. It doesn’t work for me."

    In a previous post you stated;

    "Firstly miracles, on their own don’t mean anything. I have seen many magicians doing things that baffle my mind.was tem There was always a reason that miracles were done in the Bible. They were never just for show to demonstrate how cool the doer was. I believe Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert at the beginning of his ministry (Matthew 4 1-11) to perform such a pointless self-serving miracle. Such miracles as bringing to life birds He made from clay served no purpose and describe a Jesus that abused his power to pass the time during his childhood."

    Why do you feel miracles are so important? Yes every prophet performed miracles other than Muhammed, but every prophet also died a natural death unlike Jesus. What's your point? You said there was always a reason for Jesus to perform a miracle, and than you went on three lines later stating how he performed such pointless ones aswell. So which one is it? You are right when you say miracles were done for a purpose, I believe that, but I also believe Muhammed DIDN'T perform miracles for a purpose aswell You've read a previous post of mine stating talking about this issue in detail. (Jesus in the Bible and Quran). God gave Moses the opprotunity to perform miracles and once he did, if things werent going his way for a bit people would turn on him and stop believing in him and what he was teaching, all the way up until he performed another miracle, than they would jump on the wagon. I dont blame God for not letting Muhammed perform any unbelievable miracles due to the fact that we have turned our backs on him (God) so many times. His word was enough.... like I've said before, Muhammed spawned the fastest growing religion in the world without any unbelievable miracle, just words, the words of God.

    Peace and Blessings
    Ezzedean
     
  18. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Christians claim Jesus to be the son of God:

    Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    But try to open:

    Matthew 5:9 "Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

    According to this verse, child/son of God is one who are respected. If Jesus is the son/child of God, so are people who bring peace upon other people.So its not just Jesus who is the son/child of God but there are many.

    John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

    John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

    John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

    See in John 17:23 it says "I in them". "Them" here are Jesus' friends, and "I" here is Jesus himself. So God is with Jesus and his friends. If you believe in the unity of Jesus and God, then you should believe in the unity of God and 12 Jesus' friends. This is called the unity of Gods or the Gods that unite and is not only trinity, but fifteenity. So based on the contradicted verses above, which one is true? 3 in 1 or 15 in 1? Which verse do you believe in? The 3 in 1 one or the 15 one? I know that may confuse you, and this is gonna make you more confused:

    John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    This one says that the only true God is God, and Jesus is the one been sent, or in other words, a messenger/prophet. If that is so, so which one is true. One verse claims that Jesus and God is one. One verse says 15 in 1. One verse says there is only one true God(You see the word AND there? AND splits two different objects, other wise it would be OR, which describes same objects), and in that particular verse as well, says that Jesus is sent as a messenger.

    I don't know why you never answered clearly when I ask wheter you still believe the holiness of a book if it still contains contradictories. Maybe you are doubtful about the Bible, because you said:

    "...I don't treat it as the only book of my faith..."

    It is very hard to believe a book that is holy if it contains contradictions. Holy meanse that it is clean from mistakes and contradictions.

    Are there any other verse that states that God is only one, not three in one? Yes. In OT:

    Deu 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him."

    Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:"

    It is clearly stated in the Bible that there is no other God but one God.

    And in NT:

    Mark 12:29 ""And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "

    Isn't it clear enough that Bible, your own holy book teaches you that God is one and only one! Not three in one or one in three. If so there are somewhere in the Bible that states that God is three in one, I want to question you, which one is true? Because one of them must be true, because they are not the same. If either one of them is true or both are wrong, then the content of the Holy Bible has mistakes in it, and so, it is not Holy! If you say something is holy, that something must be clean from mistakes. Can you trust a book that contains mistakes in it?

    Yes, I do agree that God can make changes, but even so, changes cannot be done to something that is BASIC. The concept of God is a really really REALLY basic matter. It could/sould not be changed. It is impossible for God to change the concept of God, because that means that God does not know Himself. And should it be that there are changes, God must have reasons for it and God must have explained the reasons to us, not just by leaving it there.
     
  19. Montalban

    Montalban Member

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    Someone can both be ‘father of a nation’ and father of a son. The son can be part of that nation, as well, but holds a particular relationship as that of ‘son’, even though he is one of many people as well.

    There is no contradiction as the concept of ‘father’ has different meanings in different contexts. In the case of Orthodoxy we believe that we are called to be like God (deification). If we follow Jesus examples then we too will, like Him, be Sons of God.



    If you would actually like to address the questions I have asked of you, which you promised to do that would be great.



    Further to note that a concept of the Trinity, or any other Christian concept need not be addressed solely from the Bible. In Orthodoxy (and Catholicism) the Bible is but one source of belief. The Trinity is based in, but not described by, and thus not exclusive to the Bible. See the thread on Jesus’ claim to God-hood as you will see that I am just as capable as you of running off a list of Bible verses. (which of itself supports Orthodox and Catholic claims that sola scriptura; bible-alone approaches are flawed.



    But anyway, I do look forward to you answering my questions, as you have promised to do.
     
  20. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Which one are corrupted? Didn't I just post some of it above there? When did it happen? Well, I don't know when the actual thing did it happen, but the existency of different versions of Bible should clear you of human efforts trying to change the words of God to match their interpretation. And this is a VERY CLEAR action. But even so, Christians still believe in it. Not to mention the guys who first changed the Bible long time ago. If I recall correctly, there are 8 different versions of Bible, correct me if im wrong? It ties with Islamic belief that God words cannot be changed only to Quran. And it has been proved that Quran till now stays one and has never been changed. By whom? We don't know, because if we know, I don't think you would still be believing in the Bible right now. The people who changed it wants the changing being kept classified, so people would think that the Bible are words of God.
     
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