Is the Bible corrupt?

[Zxzyx]

I was just wondering, if the Bible is corrupt:
1. why does Muhammad not mention this in the Quran or warn of people not to read it rather than actually recommending it.
2 Does this not contradict Sura 6:34 & 10:65 saying God’s word is uncorruptable.
3 Why did Allah not just make the Bible incorruptible and then he would not have needed to bother with the Quran (no disrespect intended).

 

[Cordoba]

Hello Zxzyx:

A few answers to your questions:

<< why does Muhammad not mention this in the Quran or warn of people not to read it rather than actually recommending it. >>

The Qur'an is God's revelation, and it does correct some of the mistakes and misconceptions mentioned in the Bible.

For example, the Qur'an is clear that Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him, is a Prophet whom God sent to the Sons of Israel, and that he is not the son of God.

There is no recommendation from prophet Muhammad for Muslims to read the Bible. It's actually the other way round, except for those who have enough knowledge to deal with Comparative Religion, scholars like Dr. Jamal Badawi for example.

<< Does this not contradict Sura 6:34 & 10:65 saying God’s word is uncorruptable. >>

The two verses you mentioned deal with another topic. The correct reference is verse (15:9) which says:

"Indeed, it is We who sent down the message [i.e. the Qur'an], and indeed, We will be its guardian." (15:9)

Which is true, as God has preserved the Qur'an free from change and corruption for 14 centuries. Muslims only have one version of the Book.

<< Why did Allah not just make the Bible incorruptible and then he would not have needed to bother with the Quran >>

Simply because Jesus, peace be upon him, was not meant to be God's last prophet, and therefore The Bible was not to be His last Book of Guidance to humanity (no disrespect intended).

Hope that answers your questions, but if you have any follow-up questions please let us know.

Peace and all the best.

 

[Peace]

Well said Cordoba masha'Allah

Salam,

Peace

 

[Zxzyx]

Cordoba

Hi and thanks for your reply.


<<The Qur'an is God's revelation, and it does correct some of the mistakes and misconceptions mentioned in the Bible.>>



Do you not believe that the Torah and the Gospels were God’s revelation?

Why does the Quran not correct the mistakes of the Bible? Surely this is of the utmost importance since people will not know which bits are corrupted and which are not. In the gospels we read that Jesus went to great lengths to correct the errors of the Jewish leaders. He never said that the scriptures were corrupt but the way in which they were presented and interpreted.



I think that if a god allowed his revelation to be corrupted then he would then be either incompetent, limited in his power to control his creation or unable to see past his current actions. None of the above are a god I want to believe in. I do believe the words of God can and have been corrupted (ie. By various sects for the personal gain of the corruptor) but that God will not let his WORD be corrupted, meaning his message will always be available to those who seek it.




<<For example, the Qur'an is clear that Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him, is a Prophet whom God sent to the Sons of Israel, and that he is not the son of God.>>



I see that the Quran says what you say but I will not believe something just because someone said it. This way of thinking I also apply to the Bible. If there is something I don’t understand I question it and I believe that God himself would approve of me questioning what I read or hear because if I did not I would be lead astray by everyone who claimed what they said was from God.



You said ‘the Quran is clear’ which is something I have hear many religious writers claiming about their holy books but if I am mistaken about what I have said then to me the Quran is not clear. It seemed to be clear but you said I have got it wrong. I consider myself to be reasonably educated and by the world’s standard I have been blessed with and education better than at least 90% of the world. (Im not bragging but rather commenting on the state of the world) I wonder how clear the Quran is to that 90%.



I read in the Quran that Muhammed in his divine inspiration seemed to be under the impression that Christians believed in three gods and he names them as God the father, the son (Jesus) and Mary. How could the all knowing God have got this wrong. I have also read that there were small sects in Arabia at that time that did believe in this Trinity but surely Allah would have known that these were just small sects and not have lasted time unlike the true Christians.

<<There is no recommendation from prophet Muhammad for Muslims to read the Bible. It's actually the other way round, except for those who have enough knowledge to deal with Comparative Religion, scholars like Dr. Jamal Badawi for example.

<< Does this not contradict Sura 6:34 & 10:65 saying God’s word is uncorruptable. >>

The two verses you mentioned deal with another topic.>>



What are these verses talking about?



<<The correct reference is verse (15:9) which says:



"Indeed, it is We who sent down the message [i.e. the Qur'an], and indeed, We will be its guardian." (15:9)

Which is true, as God has preserved the Qur'an free from change and corruption for 14 centuries. Muslims only have one version of the Book.>>



Can you offer any proof of the Quran being unchanged because I can point you to website that tells of the logical and scientific proof that the Bible we have now is the same as those of 2000+ years ago. I heard about a new Quran found in Yemen that predates the oldest current Quran we have but has at least over 100 differences in the text of the first 83 suras. The authorities of Yemen however will not allow the Germans who did work on it to publish their results, which seemed strange if it was consistent with the current Quran.



Doesn’t Muslim tradition have it that at one point there were many different Qurans and one final one was made and all the others burned? This would suggest that all Allah and Muhammad did was in vain and it took a fallible human to finish God’s work.





<<< Why did Allah not just make the Bible incorruptible and then he would not have needed to bother with the Quran >>>

<<Simply because Jesus, peace be upon him, was not meant to be God's last prophet, and therefore The Bible was not to be His last Book of Guidance to humanity (no disrespect intended).>>



What was the Bible meant to be then? What was humanity supposed to do from creation till Muhammad’s time?



On the subject of Jesus what do you think his role was? What was the point of him?



Lastly why is Muhammad seen as better than Jesus who Muslims and Christian alike believe was born miraculously, was sinless, performed miracles and was taken to heaven supernaturally when even Muslims believe Muhammad was born in a normal way, was far from sinless (raiding caravans for earthly gains and killing people), was the only prophet not to have done miracles and died in a normal way which he did not (to my knowledge) predict.



Sorry if I have waffled on a bit here but I really am interested in this stuff.



Thank you for your time and I am looking forward to your response



Zyzyx

 

[Cordoba]

Hello Zyzyx:

<< Do you not believe that the Torah and the Gospels were God’s revelation? >>

The original Torah and the original Injeel were of course revelations from God. I do believe in that, as do all Muslims.

<< Why does the Quran not correct the mistakes of the Bible? >>

It does, as mentioned above. The claims by the Pauline Church, and the official line on the trinity adopted at the Council of Nicea in 325 and Jesus, peace be upon him, being God or the Son of God, are all misconceptions corrected in The Qur'an.

<< I do believe the words of God can and have been corrupted (ie. By various sects for the personal gain of the corruptor) but that God will not let his WORD be corrupted, meaning his message will always be available to those who seek it. >>

Agreed. And His final message and guidance is available intact till today in The Qur'an.

<< Can you offer any proof of the Quran being unchanged >>

You may wish to have a look at this on-line book, (Chapters 2 and 3) which give the full background of how the Qur'an has been preserved since its revelation 14 centuries ago:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Denffer_uaq/index.htm


<< What was the Bible meant to be then? What was humanity supposed to do from creation till Muhammad’s time? >>

The Torah and The Injeel (Bible) were God's revelations to Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them both, to guide humanity to His path. All of God's prophets since Noah, peace be upon him, came with the same message of Monotheism.

<< On the subject of Jesus what do you think his role was? What was the point of him? >>

According to The Qur'an, Jesus peace be upon him, was God's chosen prophet whom He sent to guide the sons of Israel. He was born by a miracle from God, and was a human being. You may wish to have a look at this article, if of interest, titled "The Story of Jesus, son of Mary":

http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/Belief/Messengers/article03.shtml

<< Lastly why is Muhammad seen as better than Jesus >>

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was God's last prophet, whom he sent with His last revelation. In addition to him being a prophet, he was also the head of the Muslim state in Madinah, during the second part of his prophethood, and as such defended his state when attacked by armies from Makkah and elsewhere.

God says in The Qur'an:

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to Him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in God and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying] "we make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and obey". [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the final destination." (2:285)

All the best.

 

[Montalban]

Which passages of the Bible are not corrupted?

 

[Montalban]

Why did God send messenger afer messenger to the Jews as He had promised, then suddenly change His mind and send a messenger (as you believe Muhammed to be) to a totally different people?

Is there a 'covnenant' God made with the Arabs? Or did He have a 'get of jail' clause with the Jews in case they continued to be recalcitrant?

 

[Zxzyx]

Hello Cordoba:

<<The original Torah and the original Injeel were of course revelations from God. I do believe in that, as do all Muslims.>>



If what you say is correct could I ask you the basic questions What, When, Why, How?



What was corrupted? Are you are talking about the stories that are featured in the Quran such as The Queen of Sheba and Jesus making birds out of clay? I have read articles that say we can prove these stories or ones remarkably similar in their difference to the Biblical account were well known to people of Arabia hundreds of years before Muhammad’s time.



When did this corruption happen. A paper by Jay Smith at
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm
claims that we have in existence around 24,000 new testaments of fragments that back up what we read today. From these fragments we can see that the Injeel has not changed at all in all this time. I have heard of some of these fragments have been dated to within 20-60 years of Jesus’ life and if any corruption had happened in that time there were 100’s if not 1000’s of eye witnesses who would have been more than happy to correct the mistakes. The Jewish leader had no reason at all to keep quiet about Jesus’ followers claiming things they would have considered blasphemy. The same can be said of the Torah.


Why did these people corrupt the holy books? What reason would they have had? When I read the Old Testament I think it sometimes reads like a record of wrongs. For example. Soon after Israel had been miraculously rescued from Pharaoh they are worshiping an idle they made. They continue to moan throughout the 40 years in the desert. The book of Judges almost starts every chapter saying ‘Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord…’ Kings 1&2 tells of Solomon’s fall from grace followed by a list of mostly evil kings of Israel and Judah. The point I am trying to make is that if the Jews did corrupt the Old Testament why did they leave in so many stories of their failures? It does not make sense to say they corrupted their book when you look at what we are left with.



The same can be said of the New Testament. Peter, often seen as Jesus’ closest friend and disciple denies him three times. This could be seen as rather embarrassing for Christians and you think when the Christian were corrupting the Bible they would have whipped this bit out, if it were corrupted.



How was the Bible corrupted? How did God allow this to happen? Surely you are suggesting that God’s plan was thwarted by a couple of self-serving individuals resulting in the damnation of all who read the corruption. I cannot believe in a god who is so easily beaten.



Also on the same subject if the Bible was corrupted how is it possible that everyone ended up with the same message with not one uncorrupted copy worldwide. You are talking about an operation of such magnitude, conducted with such efficiency that it would have been noted by unbelievers all over the world as proof against the Bible. Ironically you are suggesting something so big and humanly impossible that it would take an act of God for it to work.



Muslim tradition tells us that after Muhammad died the Qur’an was in a mess and had to be collected together by the 3rd Caliph Uthman (correct me if I am wrong). If Muhammad was receiving revelations from God why did God not tell him death was approaching and he had better compile a complete Qur’an so that all his work would not be in vain? Islamic history seems to suggest that Muhammad’s efforts were in vain since it fell on others to finish the job.



On the subject of prophets, could I recommend reading 1 Kings 13. It tells of a little known prophet who doesn’t make a big impression in the Bible and is killed by a lion for disobedience. God sends him to speak on his behalf but God does not expect the people (especially King Jeroboam) to simply believe this man just because he said it. God performs miraculous signs through him to prove his prophet hood. This is consistent with all the prophets throughout the Bible up to and including Jesus. Muhammad on the other hand is the only one who does not and yet is seen my Muslims as the most important. Surely he, more than all the others should have given miraculous signs. I read in the Qur’an that several times Muhammad seems frustrated that he cannot perform any signs and it seemed the crowd were asking for them as proof. I believe he claimed that his recital should be proof enough but this is like saying ‘what I am saying is from God because I say so’. It doesn’t work for me.


Ill leave it there for now and look forward to your reply.
I haven’t read the links you sent yet but Ill do that today.
Thank you for your time.

Zyzyx

 

[Zxzyx]

Cordoba

I don't want to go on but below is a section of a paper I read (I have forgotten who by but I can find out if you like) showing the similarities between a story found in the Qur’an and earlier Jewish folklore.

Tell me what you think.


Zyzyx



The Story of Solomon and Sheba

In sura 27:17-44 we read the story concerning Solomon, a Hoopoo bird and the Queen of Sheba. After reading the Qur'anic account of Solomon in sura 27 (first account), it would be helpful to compare it with the account (second account) taken from a Jewish folklore, the II Targum of Esther, which was written in the second Century A.D., nearly five hundred years before the creation of the Qur'an (Tisdall 1904:80-88; Shorrosh 1988:146-150):

Qur'an- sura 27:17-44

(aya 17) "And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts-of Jinns and men, and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.
(aya 20) And he took a muster of the Birds;and he said: 'Why is it I see not the Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
(aya 21) I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence).
(aya 22) But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: 'I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
(aya 23) I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne...
(aya 27) (Solomon) said: 'Soon shall we see whether thou hast told the truth or lied!
(aya 28) Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them: then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return."
(aya 29) (The queen) said: "Ye chiefs! Here is delivered to me-a letter worthy of respect.
(aya 30) It is from Solomon, and is (as follows In the name of Allah, most Gracious, Most Merciful: Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"
(aya 32) She said: "Ye chiefs! Advise me in (this) my affair: no affair have I decided except in your presence."
(aya 33) They said: "We are endued with strength, and given to vehement war: but the command is with thee; so consider what thou wilt command."
(aya 35) She said..."But I am going to send him a present, and (wait) to see with what (answer) return (my) ambassadors."
(aya 42) So when she arrived, (aya 44) she was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass."

II Targum of Esther

"Solomon... gave orders... I will send King and armies against thee...(of) Genii [jinn] beasts of the land the birds of the air.

Just then the Red-cock (a bird), enjoying itself, could not be found; King Solomon said that they should seize it and bring it by force, and indeed he sought to kill it.

But just then, the cock appeared in the presence of the King and said, "I had seen the whole world (and) know the city and kingdom (of Sheba) which is not subject to thee, My Lord King. They are ruled by a woman called the Queen of Sheba. Then I found the fortified city in the Eastlands (Sheba) and around it are stones of gold and silver in the streets." By chance the Queen of Sheba was out in the morning worshipping the sea, the scribes prepared a letter, which was placed under the bird's wing and away it flew and (it) reached the Fort of Sheba. Seeing the letter under its wing (Sheba) opened it and read it.

"King Solomon sends to you his Salaams. Now if it please thee to come and ask after my welfare, I will set thee high above all. But if it please thee not, I will send kings and armies against thee."

The Queen of Sheba heard it, she tore her garments, and sending for her Nobles asked their advice. They knew not Solomon, but advised her to send vessels by the sea, full of beautiful ornaments and gems...also to send a letter to him.

When at last she came, Solomon sent a messenger...to meet her...Solomon, hearing she had come, arose and sat down in the palace of glass. When the Queen of Sheba saw it, she thought the glass floor was water, and so in crossing over lifted up her garments. When Solomon seeing the hair about her legs, (He) cried out to her..."

In content and style the Qur'anic story is almost identical with the account taken from the Jewish Targum, written in the second Century A.D., nearly five hundred years before the creation of the Qur'an. The two stories are uncannily similar; the jinns, the birds, and in particular the messenger bird, which Solomon initially could not find, but then used as a liason between himself and the Queen of Sheba, along with the letter and the glass floor, are unique to these two accounts. One will not find these parallels in the Biblical passages at all. Once again we must ask how a Jewish folklore from the second century A.D. found its way into the Qur'an?

 

[Montalban]

Is the Bible corrupt?

What does the Koran say about changing God's words?

6:115
Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words.

10:64
There is no changing the Words of Allah.

18:27
And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words.

 

[Cordoba]

Dear Zxzyx:

I hope you are not upset from the answers to your questions on this thread, but it was you who started the thread under the (Islam) section of the forum. It was you who asked, not me, and I simply responded to your questions from a Muslim point of view.

In this last post you ask how come there are similarities between the Qur'an and Jewish scriptures, and the answer to that question is very simple:

The God of Moses is the same God of Muhammad, peace be upon them both.

He revealed The Torah and He revealed The Qur'an.

It's only natural that both Books have a lot in common (Noah's flood, other earlier prophets like Prophet Abraham, Prophet Joseph, ... ).

All of God's prophets are part of Islam as they are part of Judaism, and that includes Prophet Solomon, peace be upon him.

I suggest that this dialogue needs to remain calm, civilized and objective.

Peace and all the best.

 

[Montalban]

It would be good if a Muslim could list for me which of the Bible passages are not corrupt.

Were all the 'bad' passages corrupted together, or over time?

Why did Jesus quote the Bible if it was corrupted? I am not aware of Him stating that the Bible was corrupt, but I could be wrong. Or, maybe He said so, but this was later forgotten, or corrupted?

 

[Cordoba]

Why did Jesus quote the Bible if it was corrupted?

The original Injeel (Bible) revealed from God to Jesus, peace be upon him, was of course not corrupt. That's why Jesus, peace be upon him, quoted it.

 

[Montalban]

The original Injeel (Bible) revealed from God to Jesus, peace be upon him, was of course not corrupt. That's why Jesus, peace be upon him, quoted it.

Really? So it was corrupted some time after Jesus? This is interesting because we still have OT from before Jesus' time and compare them and lo and behold there's no difference. And of course the testimony of Jesus had to have come after Him.

And of course this begs the question of why do you think Jesus came to prophecise when the Jews had a non-corrupted book; I thought you guys thought that all the prophets were sent to keep correcting the Bible as it got corrupted in each generation.

By the way, please tell me which verses are not corrupted. Is there a Moslem version of the Bible with all the good bits highlighted?

 

[Cordoba]

I don't argue for the sake of arguing, Montalban.

The originator of this thread asked a number of questions on the Islam forum, and I answered them from a Muslim point of view.

If you don't accept those answers, and you have all the right not to if you like, that's up to you.

"For you is your religion, and for me is my religion" (The Qur'an, 109:6)

 

[Montalban]

I don't argue for the sake of arguing, Montalban.

This then is an attempt both
a) to make this personal (a clear inference that you are saying I do), let's stay clear of such things, please
and
b) an attempt to avoid specific questions I've asked you; such as the issue of which verses aren't corrupted. Please tell me which ones aren't.

The originator of this thread asked a number of questions on the Islam forum, and I answered them from a Muslim point of view.

And you've avoided answering my questions from any point of view.

If you don't accept those answers, and you have all the right not to if you like, that's up to you.

Great. So why do you answer his questions and not mine? Who knows. I can speculate it is because you can't. But that is, just speculation.

Please tell me which passages of the Bible are not corrupted.

Do you know who corrupted the Bible? When did it happen? What did they hope to achieve? How did they defy Islamic belief that God's words can't be corrupted?

 

[Cordoba]

"For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (109:6)

Can you understand that concept?

 

[Montalban]

"For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (109:6)

Can you understand that concept?

You were happy to make claims about my religion; even if it was a response to a question from someone else. You're happy to make a claim "The Bible is corrupted".

I ask a simple question...

Which passages of the Bible are not corrupted?

It should be an easy question for you to answer, given that you believe that there are corrupted passages in the Bible. I am just interested to know 'which ones'?

In other words, I'd like more than an admission from you which so far amounts to "The Bible is corrupted, because it is".

 

[Cordoba]

I'm not making claims about your religion.

I simply answered questions by another Christian poster who started this thread on the (Islam) section of the forum. The thread since then has been moved to (Debates), and that's why I'm not answering your questions.

You are free to believe what you like. If you believe that the Bible is free of error, that's up to you.

OK?

 

[Montalban]

I'm not making claims about your religion.

You are. You stated that the Bible is corrupt. What basis do you have for making this claim? What bits are corrupt, and which aren't?

I simply answered questions by another Christian poster who started this thread on the (Islam) section of the forum.

I am aware of this, and I want to know what basis do you have for answering that the Bible is corrupted? What verses are not corrutped.

The thread since then has been moved to (Debates), and that's why I'm not answering your questions.

Sure, so effectively for several days your response is "I'm not going to respond".

You are free to believe what you like. If you believe that the Bible is free of error, that's up to you.
OK?

Great. But I would really like to know which verses you feel are corrupted.

Please, if you don't want to answer, then don't answer at all.