Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[savagewind]

I think Hebrews 10:25 was written for the people who think, "I don't want that other member with Jesus.
If he comes with us, I am definitely leaving." (not the building, but the BODY)

Even the possibility of rejecting a chosen one is discouraging to anyone who might be chosen.
Thus;
Hebrews 10:24-25

 

[savagewind]

Jesus has been dead for 2000 years. None of the above has no longer any thing to do with him. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6)

Do you believe the accounts of resurrection in the Hebrew Scriptures? 1 Kings 17:23 2 Kings 13:21
Do you believe Abraham would have murdered his son by the order of God, his friend?
Do you never consider what Abraham might have done and why? It is written in the NT that he would do so believing God would raise Isaac.

I trust that the Jesus I know is for the spirit and that it is written "God is Spirit" and Jesus is "son of God" so it follows that the resurrection of Jesus is for Spirit, not flesh. His resurrection is to God The Spirit.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I meant one lie about The Way. If you seem to be an authority to some poor sap and you lie to him about The Way it will be leading him in the wrong direction. If a person goes in the wrong direction in a straight line (the Way is straight) and the journey is long (the journey is long) he will end up in a place where there is no chance of getting back. (according to my understand of The Math)

Yes, I totally agree with your beautiful Philosophy. It makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Do you believe the accounts of resurrection in the Hebrew Scriptures? 1 Kings 17:23 2 Kings 13:21
Do you believe Abraham would have murdered his son by the order of God, his friend?
Do you never consider what Abraham might have done and why? It is written in the NT that he would do so believing God would raise Isaac.

I trust that the Jesus I know is for the spirit and that it is written "God is Spirit" and Jesus is "son of God" so it follows that the resurrection of Jesus is for Spirit, not flesh. His resurrection is to God The Spirit.

The quote of I Kings 17:23 has nothing to do with resurrection but resuscitation. Where is it written that Elijah resurrected the boy? The report that the boy had died was give by peasants; ignorant and illiterate people who had no idea about the difference between being dead or unconscious as a result of a sun stroke. Elijah applied mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and the boy's breath of life returned. Now, for the quote of II Kings 13:21, that was an embellishment added to the chronicles aka the annals of the prophets. The same was with the annals of the kings. Half of their deed were not literally true but attributed to them in memory of their greatness. Now, imagine. How could the grave of a great prophet be abandoned and open exposing his bones? How could that make sense to you? This is one evidence. Another is that the text would never be written to contradict the whole Tanach that says, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9)

Even if Abraham had murdered his son Isaac, he would be alive when Abraham woke up in the morning. I mean to say that Abraham was dreaming. The Lord tested him but in a dream. Abraham was a great prophet. To the prophets, the Lord would reveal Himself to them in a vision and talk to them in a dream. Read Number 12:6. Abraham would never think that HaShem would raise Isaac from death because bodily resurrection is not Jewish but a Christian doctrine fabricated by Paul if you read II Timothy 2:8.

Jesus was a son of God, yes, but as part of the People of Israel aka the son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. Sorry Savagewind, if I have to rain on your
parade but, the so-called resurrection of Jesus had nothing to do with God but with Paul. If you
read II Timothy 2:8, it was according to the gospel of Paul aka the NT that Jesus resurrected. Read it, please!

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think Hebrews 10:25 was written for the people who think, "I don't want that other member with Jesus. If he comes with us, I am definitely leaving." (not the building, but the BODY)

Even the possibility of rejecting a chosen one is discouraging to anyone who might be chosen.
Thus; Hebrews 10:24-25

Very good Savagewind! I agree with you. So, I expect that you will not reject us, the chosen People of the Lord

 

[CG Didymus]

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Given Jesus words (above), I would argue that Jesus presents Jesus as the only way to get into heaven. So it isn't really "many" Christians who present this as the case, but all Christians. Those who do not believe what Jesus said is true should stop calling themselves Christians.


Yes and no.

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Hebrews 11 (the whole chapter, but ending with)
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[fn] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

So from the perspective of Judaism, they probably see no need and the whole thing as a nonsensical question. However, you seemed to be asking for an opinion from a Christian perspective. From Christ looking back, it is the same as it ever was. People were never saved by their works of the law, but by the grace (unearned favor) of God, through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Going back to this post, since some of the people, like Abraham, were I suppose considered "saved" by Christians, then even before the Law it was by faith and trust in God that made the difference. But, they all did something to show that they did put their trust in God. So this "saved by faith" and not by "works" doesn't quite explain the reality of those that have faith in God.

What I'm finding is that many Christians claim that the faith of those people like Abraham also included a belief in the future Messiah? I don't suppose you know anything about how they come up with this do you?

 

[atpollard]

Going back to this post, since some of the people, like Abraham, were I suppose considered "saved" by Christians, then even before the Law it was by faith and trust in God that made the difference. But, they all did something to show that they did put their trust in God. So this "saved by faith" and not by "works" doesn't quite explain the reality of those that have faith in God.

The slogan "saved by faith, not be works" does not describe the reality. It was never intended to. It was intended as a shorthand to contrast an opposing reality of "saved by works". Let's start with an easy comparison. I do not think that Muslims would call this an unfair description of their faith, but I read that 'Allah' weighs your heart on a scale against a feather with your good deeds making it lighter and your evil deeds making it heavier. If your heart is heavier than the feather, you go someplace bad and if your heart is lighter, then you go someplace good. This is why it is important for a Muslim to follow the 5 pillars of Islam. They are acts of goodness required to be right with 'Allah'. This is a salvation by works. If you cannot do the works, then you cannot be saved and your good works must outweigh your bad works.

Protestant Christianity, in contrast, points to the Bible and claims that the standard is not good, God demands perfect. One strike and you go to hell. It then claims that even your best 'good deeds' fall so short of perfect that they are like 'filthy rags' to God (FYI: filthy rags is a polite translation of menstrual cloth ... your good works are like a used tampon to God ... Yuck). So Christianity claims that your sins are not forgiven because of the good things that you do, but because of grace (an unearned gift; a present) that God gives you because you have faith in Jesus.

Here it is explained in Ephesians Chapter 2:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[fn] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice in verse 8, you are saved by grace. In verse 9 not be works, because God does not want people bragging about what THEY have done to become such wonderful people. In verse 10 then, after you are saved by grace, you have good works that God prepared for you to do.

Christianity teaches that we do not do good works in order that God will love us; it teaches that God already loves us and we are therefore motivated by gratitude to want to do good things. So the good works are the fruit that grows from the tree, not the roots that give the tree life. God's love is the root that allows us to live and grow and produce the fruit of good works.

What I'm finding is that many Christians claim that the faith of those people like Abraham also included a belief in the future Messiah? I don't suppose you know anything about how they come up with this do you?

I sure do:

Genesis 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Notice carefully several things in the curse on the talking serpent (which the New Testement clearly states is the Devil). In v.15 there is an interesting feature of the hatred between the Devil and the "offspring" (literally 'seed') in that the word is singular, not plural. There is a specific promise (prophecy) given by God right at the fall that HE (a singular male someone) descended from THE WOMAN will be born and 'crush the head' of the serpent (Devil), but the serpent will wound him. The details are not revealed until later, and Genesis was not written until the time of Moses, but if true, it represents a history that may have been oral in the time of Abraham, who spoke with the LORD directly.

So Abraham might not have known all of the details, but he knew that God had promised that a Son of Eve would be born and break the curse (crush the head of the serpent) while being wounded in the process. Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled that promise.

 

[roger1440]

They probably can't.

However, just for the record, I actually said that Christians needed to believe what Jesus said was true, so people who do not believe what Jesus said, should probably not call themselves Christians.

See:

I’m going to start over and reword what I had written. Maybe you misunderstood where I’m going with this. In order to be saved a person must believe what Jesus had said. How can anyone believe what Jesus said when he is not here to say it? Orthodox Christianity teaches a person must believe in the written word to be saved, the Gospels. The very Gospels themselves are not in agreement with that. I know very well it’s an oxymoron. The church is founded on not what was revealed to Peter, but how it was revealed to Peter.

 

[atpollard]

I’m going to start over and reword what I had written. Maybe you misunderstood where I’m going with this. In order to be saved a person must believe what Jesus had said. How can anyone believe what Jesus said when he is not here to say it? Orthodox Christianity teaches a person must believe in the written word to be saved, the Gospels. The very Gospels themselves are not in agreement with that. I know very well it’s an oxymoron. The church is founded on not what was revealed to Peter, but how it was revealed to Peter.

Romans 10:
5 For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.[fn] 6 But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” 8 In fact, it says,
“The message is very close at hand;
it is on your lips and in your heart.”
And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”
14 But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15 And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”

Respectfully, salvation does not rest on an intellectual acknowledgement of what Jesus said. It is based upon belief in one fact that all gospels and extra-biblical sources are in agreement on, the followers of Jesus have long maintained this insane claim that Jesus rose from the dead. Paul correctly states that if we are mistaken about this fact, then we believe a lie and are to be pitied more than any other people. However, for 2000 years, men have found in various sources suffient evidence to continue to believe this claim. It really is the heart of Christianity. Grace by FAITH and this Faith is a gift from God.

Once you have faith that Jesus really did rise from the dead, then many of his claims become self-evident. The question then becomes a very simple, who is the boss of you? If you are determined to remain master of your own destiny, then so be it. Christians are those who have believed and "confessed that Jesus is Lord". That means that HE (Jesus) is the boss of my life.

It really isn't that complicated to understand. Most people either don't believe or refuse to yield and confess. The problem is seldom an inability to understand.

Does that address your point?

 

[roger1440]

Does that address your point?

You can't prove the Bible by quoting from the Bible.

 

[Desert Snake]

Technically, no.

 

[roger1440]

Does that address your point?

You are telling me I should believe the Bible because it's in the Bible.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.[3] Begging the question is closely related to circular reasoning, and in modern usage the two generally refer to the same thing.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

 

[atpollard]

You can't prove the Bible by quoting from the Bible.

Technically, no.

You are telling me I should believe the Bible because it's in the Bible.
Circular reasoning [snip]

Heh, looks like now it is my turn to try again because I have failed to properly communicate.

Point 1: I understand Circular reasoning and I am NOT telling you to believe the Bible because the Bible says so.
Point 2: I quoted the Bibly only to make the point that EVEN THE BIBLE does not claim that believing the Bible will save you.

Point 3: So what will save you if it has nothing to do with the Bible?

Respectfully, salvation does not rest on an intellectual acknowledgement of what Jesus said. It is based upon belief in one fact that all gospels and extra-biblical sources are in agreement on, the followers of Jesus have long maintained this insane claim that Jesus rose from the dead. Paul correctly states that if we are mistaken about this fact, then we believe a lie and are to be pitied more than any other people. However, for 2000 years, men have found in various sources suffient evidence to continue to believe this claim. It really is the heart of Christianity. Grace by FAITH and this Faith is a gift from God.

Romans 10:9-10 states "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved." Note that Jesus words and teachings and the Bible are not mentioned. It is about believing a fact and confessing a relationship with a person. If you do not believe the fact, you cannot confess the relationship. If you do not believe the fact (Jesus was raised from the dead), then the relationship (Lordship of Christ) will be nonsense.

Thus the common claim that Faith is a gift from God.

The children's song "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so" may be good for comforting small children, but it is actually poor theology. Trust in the Bible comes from Faith in Christ and his Grace working in you to confirm its veracity. Jesus proves the Bible, the Bible does not prove Jesus (in my personal experience).

So just to be 100% clear in answering your question:
Question: In order to be saved a person must believe what Jesus had said. How can anyone believe what Jesus said when he is not here to say it?
Answer: A person IS NOT saved by believing what Jesus said, your premise is false. A person is saved by believing that Jesus rose from the dead and submitting to Him.

 

[Kemosloby]

Many Christians present Jesus as the "only" way to get into heaven. That everybody, without Jesus, is lost in their sin. That nothing they can do on their own is good enough. And, without accepting Jesus, God will send them to hell.

So the question for Christians is: Prior to Jesus, was anybody "saved" under the Law? For Jews, was getting "saved", as believed by Christians, a concept that was ever part of Judaism?

The Lord in the old testament was Jesus before Jesus came in the Flesh. All the Jews were baptized into Christ. See 1 Corinthians 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in cloud and sea. They all ate the same spiritual food. and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Is salvation possible under the Law?

Only under Law, salvation is possible. The expression "under the Law" means in the obedience of the Law. If we obey, we are free from the effects as a result of breaking the Law. This is Logic in action. Jesus himself said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[savagewind]

Is salvation possible under the Law?

Only under Law, salvation is possible. The expression "under the Law" means in the obedience of the Law. If we obey, we are free from the effects as a result of breaking the Law. This is Logic in action. Jesus himself said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Moses was not saved to the promised land via the law.
If to be saved means to be perfect in the law then nobody is ever saved.

 

[savagewind]

Maybe some people understand saved as delivered from anything hurtful.
As in, if you obey all the law, nothing bad will ever happen to you.

I think saved means to find friendship with God. A friend is a friend forever. Right?

 

[CG Didymus]

The slogan "saved by faith, not be works" does not describe the reality. It was never intended to. It was intended as a shorthand to contrast an opposing reality of "saved by works". Let's start with an easy comparison. I do not think that Muslims would call this an unfair description of their faith, but I read that 'Allah' weighs your heart on a scale against a feather with your good deeds making it lighter and your evil deeds making it heavier. If your heart is heavier than the feather, you go someplace bad and if your heart is lighter, then you go someplace good. This is why it is important for a Muslim to follow the 5 pillars of Islam. They are acts of goodness required to be right with 'Allah'. This is a salvation by works. If you cannot do the works, then you cannot be saved and your good works must outweigh your bad works.

Protestant Christianity, in contrast, points to the Bible and claims that the standard is not good, God demands perfect. One strike and you go to hell. It then claims that even your best 'good deeds' fall so short of perfect that they are like 'filthy rags' to God (FYI: filthy rags is a polite translation of menstrual cloth ... your good works are like a used tampon to God ... Yuck). So Christianity claims that your sins are not forgiven because of the good things that you do, but because of grace (an unearned gift; a present) that God gives you because you have faith in Jesus.

Here it is explained in Ephesians Chapter 2:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[fn] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice in verse 8, you are saved by grace. In verse 9 not be works, because God does not want people bragging about what THEY have done to become such wonderful people. In verse 10 then, after you are saved by grace, you have good works that God prepared for you to do.

Christianity teaches that we do not do good works in order that God will love us; it teaches that God already loves us and we are therefore motivated by gratitude to want to do good things. So the good works are the fruit that grows from the tree, not the roots that give the tree life. God's love is the root that allows us to live and grow and produce the fruit of good works.



I sure do:

Genesis 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Notice carefully several things in the curse on the talking serpent (which the New Testement clearly states is the Devil). In v.15 there is an interesting feature of the hatred between the Devil and the "offspring" (literally 'seed') in that the word is singular, not plural. There is a specific promise (prophecy) given by God right at the fall that HE (a singular male someone) descended from THE WOMAN will be born and 'crush the head' of the serpent (Devil), but the serpent will wound him. The details are not revealed until later, and Genesis was not written until the time of Moses, but if true, it represents a history that may have been oral in the time of Abraham, who spoke with the LORD directly.

So Abraham might not have known all of the details, but he knew that God had promised that a Son of Eve would be born and break the curse (crush the head of the serpent) while being wounded in the process. Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled that promise.

A couple of more questions: Christians have such a different view of the Law than Jews. I don't think Jews ever were told by God that they had to keep the Law perfectly or be guilty of all, especially considering that some of the Laws were minor offenses.

For you sin and death entered the world and tainted all of the people ever born. I don't think God told the Jews this either. And, I don't think God told the Jews that the serpent was the devil. And, did the devil have to crawl on his belly from that point on? I don't think so. It sounds like God was talking to a serpent.

But now the most important question I have for you. Since the people that had faith in God prior to Jesus were "saved", then it had nothing to do with keeping the Law anyway. So way would God expect them to keep the Law perfect? And, obviously, God didn't find them guilty of "all" when they did fall short of keeping the Law. Oh, and maybe you could comment on one more thing. I don't see how Christians believe that Satan's name is or was Lucifer? If that was his name at all, why wouldn't it be the Hebrew word use there instead of a translation of that word? Thanks CG

 

[CG Didymus]

Is salvation possible under the Law?

Only under Law, salvation is possible. The expression "under the Law" means in the obedience of the Law. If we obey, we are free from the effects as a result of breaking the Law. This is Logic in action. Jesus himself said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

I know Jesus says somewhere that if you love him you should keep his commandments. So what's the difference? You guys love God and obey Him. Christians love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and obey them. But Christians, because of Paul, makes the Law something temporary... only meant to show people how bad they are. And because they can't follow it perfectly, they're going to stay bad... unless they accept Jesus and get their soul cleansed.

But, that quote you mentioned earlier says that God will forgive your sins and make you white as snow... and without Jesus? So what's going on? It seems like it's all in the interpretations. And Christians can always play their trump card and say that God said so... in the NT. But my problem is, which I suppose is similar to yours, is that God didn't say so, not in your Scriptures. So because the NT contradicts your Scriptures in many ways, why should I assume they are from God? And if Christians say that it's "progressive" revelation... that God made things in the Jewish Scriptures more clear. Clear, meaning that all things pointed to Jesus.

But Islam and the Baha'i Faith do the same thing. They say you and the Christians didn't have "all" the truth. God revealed more. Muhammad interpreted the Jewish and Christian Scriptures correctly. Why? Because God told him the true meaning. But then, the Baha'u'llah does the same thing to all of you and says "No", that all of you have God's message wrong and that he, Baha'u'llah, has the correct and current truth from God. So who's right? They all go back to the Jews, but say that your interpretation of your own Scriptures is wrong. What's up with that?

 

[atpollard]

A couple of more questions: Christians have such a different view of the Law than Jews. I don't think Jews ever were told by God that they had to keep the Law perfectly or be guilty of all, especially considering that some of the Laws were minor offenses.

I am really not an expert on the Law of Moses (mostly because of lack of interest), but I believe that the penalty for wearing a linen-wool blend tunic might be death.

While your point may be technically correct, I suspect that Jews have a strong suspission that God does not grade on a curve or let things slide. Remember the man who reached up to keep the Ark from falling off the cart? Dead.

For you sin and death entered the world and tainted all of the people ever born. I don't think God told the Jews this either. And, I don't think God told the Jews that the serpent was the devil. And, did the devil have to crawl on his belly from that point on? I don't think so. It sounds like God was talking to a serpent.

Again, I am not really the person who should be answering for all Jews (or any Jews) but since you asked, they have the same Genesis that I do, so they can read about the same curse that I can. They may or may not have clever names like the Doctrine of Original Sin or the "T" in T.U.L.I.P., but they probably reach the same conclusion that we are born under a curse.

I try not to think too hard about the whole talking serpent thing. I don't think any epiphany that I might have will be helpful. The snake was talking, so crawling on it's belly is the least of my questions.

But now the most important question I have for you. Since the people that had faith in God prior to Jesus were "saved", then it had nothing to do with keeping the Law anyway. So way would God expect them to keep the Law perfect? And, obviously, God didn't find them guilty of "all" when they did fall short of keeping the Law.

Let's take a step back and see the big picture. Is there anything in the Bible to make you think that God has as his standard of Holiness "good enough"? I see no close when dealing with God, the bar is set at PERFECT. So if you are planning to approach God on the basis of YOUR merit, then you are going to have to be perfect. Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses ... anyone.

If that is the standard, then the Law was never about being perfect, it was about teaching that we are not perfect so that we will see the need for forgiveness.

So don't get too wrapped up in the whole "guilty of the whole law" thing. The only point that it is really trying to make is that if you violate even one tiny part of the law, then you are not perfect and cannot enter the presence of God on your perfect merit. It does you no good to keep most of the law if you are attempting to win God's approval by being perfect.

Oh, and maybe you could comment on one more thing. I don't see how Christians believe that Satan's name is or was Lucifer? If that was his name at all, why wouldn't it be the Hebrew word use there instead of a translation of that word? Thanks CG

"Satan" is the transliteration of the Hebrew word found in places like Job 1:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 Whence comest thou? Then Satan H7854 answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
and simply means "adversary". (One of our Jewish friends could probably do a better job of explaining it).

"Lucifer" comes from Isaiah 14:2 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, H1966 son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
and comes from the Hebrew word heylel meaning "shining one" or "morning star". Now stay with me, when it came time to translate the Hebrew 'heylel' into Latin, they chose "light-bearer" as the closest Latin word which is "lucifer"

(Here is Isaiah 14:2 in Latin Vulgate: quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes)

So it was always a descriptive term used in a poem as a name. Tradition just made the Latin version of the name popular among the church (Especially since it was used in the King James translation of the Bible).