Is Saint Worship Necromancy?

[freeindeed78]

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev 5:8

This shows the saints praying for people in Heaven. If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

But this is not explicite in identifying whom these prayers went to, or even who authored them? If prayed aloud, I'm willing to concede that those in Heaven can hear them, if in silence then we are now attributing omniscient powers to the saints? Is it possible from that scripture that interecession was not being made in the way it's implied by Roman Catholicism, but rather a song of praise rang out?


I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.1 Timothy 2:1-2

The Catholic church says that The intercession of prayer by fellow Christians (which is what the saints in heaven are)also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship. They believe they are just asking other Christians to pray for them.

This is what the catholic church teaches. I am not a Christian so this is not my issue. Just thought you might be interested.

Again though, I guess my presumption would be the prerequisite of Life

Thanks for the insight

 

[freeindeed78]

We used to have readings from the Deuterocanons (Apocrypha) at liturgy when I was growing up. We never viewed them any differently from the Old Testament, and when the reading was completed the cantor still said: the word of the Lord, and everyone said: thanks be to God.

Interesting. With that being said, and without taking the topic off subject too long, what's your current viewpoint on the Apocrypha? Do you still accept it as the word of God?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well seeing as I'm not a Christian any longer, I don't consider any of the Bible the word of God persay, depending how you define "word of God", but if I could have an opinion on the matter- the Dueterocanons are neither more nor less authoritative then the other books of scripture.

 

[freeindeed78]

Assumptions, I suppose, kind of like the conclusion that dead people, though living in an afterlife, aren't capable of hearing prayers. I don't see that spelled out anywhere in the Bible either.


Doesn't the same hold true for prayers to saints? You're not worshipping the saint (that would be considered idolatry in Catholicism just like in other forms of Christianity); you're asking the saint to pray to God on your behalf. Same idea, only the saint (having been freed from the limitations of the physical world) might be in a better position to see what help you need.


Nothing. However, people don't normally pray to only one saint (or presumed saint), and the Catholic Church tells people to pray to God as well.


You do. The idea isn't to replace prayer to Christ, it's to supplement it. If you can "go to the throneroom" alone or with a friend, why not go with a friend?

BTW - if this is your attitude, why do you ask living people to pray for you?

I guess for the same reasons we offer our condolences and prayers to a grieving widow, or childless father? Noone wants to feel as if their struggle is completely isolated, We sympathize for one another, we care, we show compassion. When someone I love hurts, I hurt. If they are full of Joy, I'm elated. What a lonely road to travel if you travel it alone. But with that being said, that same friend I ask to pray for me can also give me a pat on the back, or offer a word of encouragement, and maybe that's where I have distinguishing thoughts.... I can't receive that from the saints? Therefore maybe it's simply that the intercession that they could offer isn't what I need? The thought that a saint may or may not hear me, but can offer no support or encouragment, no reassuring hug, no inner peace.....maybe that's why I can't comprehend it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I guess for the same reasons we offer our condolences and prayers to a grieving widow, or childless father? Noone wants to feel as if their struggle is completely isolated, We sympathize for one another, we care, we show compassion. When someone I love hurts, I hurt. If they are full of Joy, I'm elated. What a lonely road to travel if you travel it alone.

And if you think your dead friends and family are actually still alive but just invisible, wouldn't the same hold true for them?

But with that being said, that same friend I ask to pray for me can also give me a pat on the back, or offer a word of encouragement, and maybe that's where I have distinguishing thoughts.... I can't receive that from the saints? Therefore maybe it's simply that the intercession that they could offer isn't what I need? The thought that a saint may or may not hear me, but can offer no support or encouragment, no reassuring hug, no inner peace.....maybe that's why I can't comprehend it?

It seems to me that the problems you describe are with prayer in general, not just prayer to the saints.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

True, but was always clearly marked as "Apocrypha" and never accepted as the infallible Word of God.

It was completely set apart between the books of the Old an New Testament. They were not considered in the realm with the canonical books, and therefore used mainly as historical reference rather than spirit led. At least from what I can tell.

The verse's I quoted were from the New Testament I Timothy & Revelation not the Apocrypha.

The Apocrypha were seen as scripture by many early Christians and Jews. It was removed because the Jews believed it was not written in Hebrew. The Jews wanted to separate them selves from the Christians. They have since found that it was written in Hebrew ( I am not 100% sure about this) in the dead sea scrolls.

Also the early Christians did not believe in Sola Scriptura (Latin "by scripture alone") They had different cannons for a long time. And when they agreed on a single cannon they gave the Church Councils equal weight as the bible. The Idea of Sola Scriptura did not exist until the 1500's.

Now since I am a Hindu I have no problem with Sola Scriptura. It's just a new idea for Christians.

 

[freeindeed78]

And if you think your dead friends and family are actually still alive but just invisible, wouldn't the same hold true for them?


It seems to me that the problems you describe are with prayer in general, not just prayer to the saints.

No,
My prayer life is good (if I can say that without sounding boastful) and I believe wholeheartedly that Jesus hears my prayers and answers them. So I don't believe the issue is with my prayer, but to whom my prayer is to?

I guess you could say it is a faith matter, or lack thereof. I don't have the faith that my prayers which are oft times said in silence are heard by the saints, and even if God allows them to be omniscient, I have doubts that they relay them with the same burden and yearning that I feel them.
The bible talks about : "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

How are the saints able to intercede when we ourselves know not what we should pray?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No,
My prayer life is good (if I can say that without sounding boastful) and I believe wholeheartedly that Jesus hears my prayers and answers them. So I don't believe the issue is with my prayer, but to whom my prayer is to?

Well, nobody in the Catholic Church is telling you that you shouldn't pray to Jesus.

I guess you could say it is a faith matter, or lack thereof. I don't have the faith that my prayers which are oft times said in silence are heard by the saints, and even if God allows them to be omniscient, I have doubts that they relay them with the same burden and yearning that I feel them.

So... even though they've been released from Earthly limitations, and even though they're residing in Heaven (which would imply to me that God thinks fairly highly of them), you don't think they're up to the task?

The bible talks about : "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

How are the saints able to intercede when we ourselves know not what we should pray?

How is a friend able to know what you need when you don't know yourself?

Different perspectives give different insights.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

No,
My prayer life is good (if I can say that without sounding boastful) and I believe wholeheartedly that Jesus hears my prayers and answers them. So I don't believe the issue is with my prayer, but to whom my prayer is to?

But the Catholic church's official position is that all they are doing is asking others to pray for them. Just like you might ask a friend . They just are asking dead people to pray for them.

 

[LoTrobador]

Well what about the book of Maccabees, which was accepted as Christian scripture by all Christians until 1890?(KJV)

I think the Second Book of Maccabees was considered to be canonical in the Christian world until the Reformation, and that the Continental Reformation generally rejected its canonicity in the 16th century.

Concerning the Anglican Church, the Forty-Two Articles and the Thirty-Nine Articles - both in the Article VI - include the Second Book of Maccabees in a list of books, of which it is written:

And the other books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine.

So I think it might be more accurate to say that it was considered canonical until the 16th century. However, I'm aware that there are doctrinal differences within the Anglican Communion, so there might be differences with respect to how the Second Book of Maccabees is interpreted.

 

[freeindeed78]

Well, nobody in the Catholic Church is telling you that you shouldn't pray to Jesus.

So... even though they've been released from Earthly limitations, and even though they're residing in Heaven (which would imply to me that God thinks fairly highly of them), you don't think they're up to the task?

Being released from earthly limitations does not award them with the attritbutes of diety. But even so, how can a saint travail with me in prayer over a sorrowful situation or need when they are in heaven in which there is no sorrow, no tears, no pain?

How is a friend able to know what you need when you don't know yourself?

He/she isn't able to know other than what I share, but then again, as I stated earlier, I share with the purpose to alleviate the burden of carrying this alone, not that I expect their prayers to be more readily accepted than mine. So the reason for intercession on the behalf of a friend is an act of compassion from one to another, the act of intercession by Jesus is an act of compassion by God to man.

Different perspectives give different insights.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Far as I know Lo, the Anglican Church now views the Dueterocanons on the same level as the Old Testament. That's how I was raised

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Being released from earthly limitations does not award them with the attritbutes of diety.

Were in Catholic church doctrine does it say that Catholics except saints as deities. I find this has a lot more to do with bias beliefs about the Catholic Church then the Catholic Church it self.

 

[freeindeed78]

Were in Catholic church doctrine does it say that Catholics except saints as deities. I find this has a lot more to do with bias beliefs about the Catholic Church then the Catholic Church it self.

I'm taking the facts, and from that, can make an educated guess.
If I'm praying to a saint, and at the same time you are praying to the same saint, it would imply that that saint is able to hear both prayers at the same time which is an attribute given to God.
Not so much about biased belief, rather conflict over belief I guess.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Being released from earthly limitations does not award them with the attritbutes of diety. But even so, how can a saint travail with me in prayer over a sorrowful situation or need when they are in heaven in which there is no sorrow, no tears, no pain?

Where does it say that in the Bible? You seemed big into the idea of the other side backing up its position with scripture; how about yours?

He/she isn't able to know other than what I share,

Someone watching you can't know anything about you other than what you tell him? That's not even true for living people.

but then again, as I stated earlier, I share with the purpose to alleviate the burden of carrying this alone, not that I expect their prayers to be more readily accepted than mine. So the reason for intercession on the behalf of a friend is an act of compassion from one to another, the act of intercession by Jesus is an act of compassion by God to man.

So when you say to a friend, "pray for me", you don't actually mean "pray for me" at all, but instead you mean "comfort me"?

This seems to be a roundabout way of going at things, IMO.

 

[LoTrobador]

Far as I know Lo, the Anglican Church now views the Dueterocanons on the same level as the Old Testament. That's how I was raised

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common view, though I believe Anglicans of the Low Church, Evangelical tradition might differ.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm taking the facts, and from that, can make an educated guess.
If I'm praying to a saint, and at the same time you are praying to the same saint, it would imply that that saint is able to hear both prayers at the same time which is an attribute given to God.

So God's not allowed to let a person hear two voices at once? Why not?

This doesn't seem to me to be so much different than "gifts of the spirit" like interpretation of speaking in tongues, which the Bible says God gives to some people.

And just for argument's sake, say a saint could only hear one prayer at a time. How would this make the Catholic position wrong? You'd still have saints hearing prayers and passing them on to God.

Not so much about biased belief, rather conflict over belief I guess.

I'm still not seeing the conflict.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common view, though I believe Anglicans of the Low Church, Evangelical tradition might differ.

I'm not sure the Low Church Anglicans still exist, LOL. Seriously though, the majority of Anglicans are high church, and the only low church Anglicans I know are on the verge of splitting from the Anglican Communion over homosexuality.

 

[freeindeed78]

Where does it say that in the Bible? You seemed big into the idea of the other side backing up its position with scripture; how about yours?

The one I quoted originally was Rev 21:3-4....

Someone watching you can't know anything about you other than what you tell him? That's not even true for living people.

Why?

So when you say to a friend, "pray for me", you don't actually mean "pray for me" at all, but instead you mean "comfort me"?

Yes, for me prayer is comforting....so I see no problem with that.

This seems to be a roundabout way of going at things, IMO.

Not sure how it's roundabout? My position has always been go directly to the source.....the asking friends for prayer is a comforting thought that i'm not alone, but it's not a roundabout means to get my prayer answered.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The one I quoted originally was Rev 21:3-4....

That seems to me to be talking about the Second Coming. Why do you think it applies to Heaven now?

Why?

Say you see a friend - he looks sad. You ask him what's wrong. He says "nothing". What do you conclude?

- there's actually nothing wrong
- he's bothered by something but doesn't want to talk about it

Probably the second option, right? But going by his words alone, you'd have to pick the first option. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

If you know someone and watch him, you probably have ideas about what would make him happy even without him telling you. This is just part of being observant.

Yes, for me prayer is comforting....so I see no problem with that.

You're moving the goalposts. Before, you argued that prayer to saints wouldn't give you the same benefits that asking loved ones to pray for you would give you: comfort from another actual person. Fine if you think that, but this implies the thing you're seeking isn't prayer at all.

Not sure how it's roundabout? My position has always been go directly to the source.....the asking friends for prayer is a comforting thought that i'm not alone, but it's not a roundabout means to get my prayer answered.

You want to be comforted, so you ask for a prayer. Why not just ask for comfort?