Is Saint Worship Necromancy?

[freeindeed78]

A question born from honest curiosity. I am not nor have I ever been a member of the Catholic Church and this question has always intrigued me as to how prayer to the saints can be explained as anything but speaking to the dead?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A question born from honest curiosity. I am not nor have I ever been a member of the Catholic Church and this question has always intrigued me as to how prayer to the saints can be explained as anything but speaking to the dead?

Is speaking to the dead necessarily necromancy?

Personally, I don't see prayer to the saints as any stranger than praying to Jesus or God directly. The big leap on the scale of weird is when you first decide to communicate with other-worldly, invisible beings. The nuances of which other-worldly, invisible beings you're communicating with is just a matter of minor gradation.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Firstly, no one worships the saints, they ask them to pray for them to god. Besides that, yes I'd say saint intercession in Catholicism certainly mirrors that of ancestor veneration in ancient Pagan religions. We still venerate our ancestors in Kemeticism. In fact, a lot of us feel personally, Christianity is a religion founded and based on ancestor veneration, from Jesus right on down the line.

 

[freeindeed78]

With that basis, wouldn't speaking to yourself or your conscience be on the same scale? Does that logic also include inanimate objects?
The premise obviously being that you believe in something other than yourself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

With that basis, wouldn't speaking to yourself or your conscience be on the same scale? Does that logic also include inanimate objects?

I don't consider myself, my conscience or inanimate objects "other-worldly". Do you?

The premise obviously being that you believe in something other than yourself.

What does that have to do with anything? Do you think that accepting the existence of anything at all means that it's somehow reasonable to accept the existence of whatever odd thing someone comes up with?

Your user title says you're Christian, right?

- do you believe in God?
- do you believe that people can talk to God?
- do you believe that if you ask someone to pray for you, they can talk to God on your behalf?
- do you believe that people (or their souls) can survive death?

If your answers to all those questions are "yes", then under this set of beliefs, prayer to the saints doesn't add any weirdness that isn't already present in asking a friend to pray for you.

 

[freeindeed78]

I don't consider myself, my conscience or inanimate objects "other-worldly". Do you?

No, but I would consider my conscience invisible, and if the premise that the only normal is "wordly" or "visible" then would this include inanimate objects, or even animals which can't respond?


What does that have to do with anything? Do you think that accepting the existence of anything at all means that it's somehow reasonable to accept the existence of whatever odd thing someone comes up with?

Your user title says you're Christian, right?

- do you believe in God?
- do you believe that people can talk to God?
- do you believe that if you ask someone to pray for you, they can talk to God on your behalf?
- do you believe that people (or their souls) can survive death?

If your answers to all those questions are "yes", then under this set of beliefs, prayer to the saints doesn't add any weirdness that isn't already present in asking a friend to pray for you.

Again, the premise would be that I believe in God and accept the attributes of God. Therefore it would not be considered odd or weird to speak to God. But I also believe the Bible as it states there is one intercessory between God and Man......Jesus Christ. So are we attributing the same attributes to man that we've given to God?
I think that's where the distinction lies that I don't grasp. If I can simply ask anyone to intercede, could I ask my Great Grandmother who was by all accounts a Godly Woman?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Free I would argue that you could ask one of your ancestors, or at least talk to them sometime. Why wouldn't you want to?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, the premise would be that I believe in God and accept the attributes of God. Therefore it would not be considered odd or weird to speak to God.

Once one accepts the premise, perhaps. But it's a pretty weird premise, IMO.

But I also believe the Bible as it states there is one intercessory between God and Man......Jesus Christ. So are we attributing the same attributes to man that we've given to God?

No, they're attributing the same attributes to dead people that they do to live ones.

Don't you ever ask anyone else to pray for you? Does it place an "intercessory" between God and you?

I think that's where the distinction lies that I don't grasp. If I can simply ask anyone to intercede, could I ask my Great Grandmother who was by all accounts a Godly Woman?

Sure. The Catholic Church proclaims that certain people are saints, but it doesn't say that there aren't other saints as well.

The idea of prayer to the saints isn't that you're asking a saint to do what you'd normally ask God to do; the idea is that you ask the saints to pray to God on your behalf.

 

[freeindeed78]

Free I would argue that you could ask one of your ancestors, or at least talk to them sometime. Why wouldn't you want to?

Well for one reason I don't see this as something Jesus taught, nor do I see it reflected in the early Church?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So you let some book written by primitive sheep herders stop you from having a relationship with your relatives?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well for one reason I don't see this as something Jesus taught, nor do I see it reflected in the early Church?

There are commands in the Gospels and elsewhere for people to pray for one another. The question is whether you think this command no longer applies after death. If you believe in life after death, then I don't see why you'd necessarily say that people can't keep on praying for each other even after they die.

 

[freeindeed78]

Once one accepts the premise, perhaps. But it's a pretty weird premise, IMO.

Perhaps

No, they're attributing the same attributes to dead people that they do to live ones.

But is this fair? And on what is it based?

Don't you ever ask anyone else to pray for you? Does it place an "intercessory" between God and you?

I do, but it does not place them between God and I, simply beside me. I know it's a small difference here, but still a difference. It's like taking a bullet for someone and pushing someone out of the way of a bullet.....both work towards an end result, the difference being, in this Jesus took my bullet? Crude analogy....but then again, I'm bad with analogies.

Sure. The Catholic Church proclaims that certain people are saints, but it doesn't say that there aren't other saints as well.

Well then what's to prevent someone to spend their life praying to someone who maybe never had a relationship with God, has no concern nor desire for the wellbeing or benefit of the person praying?

The idea of prayer to the saints isn't that you're asking a saint to do what you'd normally ask God to do; the idea is that you ask the saints to pray to God on your behalf.

I can understand that, but my question would be why? If we have access now to the throneroom of God through His son Jesus Christ, why not go directly to the source?

 

[freeindeed78]

There are commands in the Gospels and elsewhere for people to pray for one another. The question is whether you think this command no longer applies after death. If you believe in life after death, then I don't see why you'd necessarily say that people can't keep on praying for each other even after they die.

Then why do we not see it throughout the history of not only Judaism, but also early Christianity? Wouldn't the Patriarchs or Father Abraham be a prime candidate to act as an intercessor? Even the Prophets?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well what about the book of Maccabees, which was accepted as Christian scripture by all Christians until 1890? The 2 Maccabees says it is a holy and good thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sin- (KJV)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

PS: Yes the KJV had 2 Maccabees until 1891 revision

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But is this fair? And on what is it based?

Assumptions, I suppose, kind of like the conclusion that dead people, though living in an afterlife, aren't capable of hearing prayers. I don't see that spelled out anywhere in the Bible either.

I do, but it does not place them between God and I, simply beside me. I know it's a small difference here, but still a difference.

Doesn't the same hold true for prayers to saints? You're not worshipping the saint (that would be considered idolatry in Catholicism just like in other forms of Christianity); you're asking the saint to pray to God on your behalf. Same idea, only the saint (having been freed from the limitations of the physical world) might be in a better position to see what help you need.

Well then what's to prevent someone to spend their life praying to someone who maybe never had a relationship with God, has no concern nor desire for the wellbeing or benefit of the person praying?

Nothing. However, people don't normally pray to only one saint (or presumed saint), and the Catholic Church tells people to pray to God as well.

I can understand that, but my question would be why? If we have access now to the throneroom of God through His son Jesus Christ, why not go directly to the source?

You do. The idea isn't to replace prayer to Christ, it's to supplement it. If you can "go to the throneroom" alone or with a friend, why not go with a friend?

BTW - if this is your attitude, why do you ask living people to pray for you?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev 5:8

This shows the saints praying for people in Heaven. If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.1 Timothy 2:1-2

The Catholic church says that The intercession of prayer by fellow Christians (which is what the saints in heaven are)also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship. They believe they are just asking other Christians to pray for them.

This is what the catholic church teaches. I am not a Christian so this is not my issue. Just thought you might be interested.

 

[freeindeed78]

True, but was always clearly marked as "Apocrypha" and never accepted as the infallible Word of God.

It was completely set apart between the books of the Old an New Testament. They were not considered in the realm with the canonical books, and therefore used mainly as historical reference rather than spirit led. At least from what I can tell.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

True, but was always clearly marked as "Apocrypha" and never accepted as the infallible Word of God.

It was completely set apart between the books of the Old an New Testament. They were not considered in the realm with the canonical books, and therefore used mainly as historical reference rather than spirit led. At least from what I can tell.

Actually, that's not correct. They were always considered scripture, and it was those who called their validity into dispute who labeled them "Apocrypha". You will see that in Catholic, Orthodox, and most Anglican Bibles, those books are in the Old Testament part. The KJV labeled them Apocrypha, because at the time the Church of England was questioning their validity, but they have since then re-affirmed the validity of the Apocrypha as scripture, valuable for teaching and doctrine. Take my word on this, I was raised Episcopalian (US Anglican).

 

[Rainbow Mage]

We used to have readings from the Deuterocanons (Apocrypha) at liturgy when I was growing up. We never viewed them any differently from the Old Testament, and when the reading was completed the cantor still said: the word of the Lord, and everyone said: thanks be to God.