"Is Religious Freedom in the U.S. Broken Beyond Repair?"

[1robin]

Alternatively, you could provide evidence to support your claim.

Ok,

A. Exactly how many examples are required?
B. Where did you get the number required from?

 

[Jose Fly]

I only had so much time to spend so I spent it on the thread's title instead of a huge OP. Where is the foul?

I don't see THIS POST as "huge".

I do background work when it is appropriate. In professional debates sourcing works like this.

A. Make an emphatic claim.
B. Post a quote or small excerpt from a larger source that supports your claim.
C. Supply the link in case the other person wishes to read further.

That is how professional debates are done. They are not done for example, by my saying evolution is wrong because Paley's natural theology exists. Natural theology : Paley, William, 1743-1805 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive


It does appear I bailed on you. I can assure it was accidental but I do not know what actually happened. I was down for two weeks with pneumonia recently perhaps that is what happened. I apologize, did you want to continue that discussion?

To be honest, if you don't have the time or interest necessary to properly discuss the issues at hand, I'm not interested.

 

[Stevicus]

Christianity has been struggling against bondage and oppression for 2000 years. It was even founded on this type of event and has been overcoming cities, nations, and even empires ever since. I think you misunderstood. What I posted was the lifecycle of a democracy, not of Christianity. The cycle does contain Christianity but is not tracking Christianity, it's tracking the character of a democracy over time.

Perhaps in the early days of Christianity, when they were still an outlawed religion within the Roman Empire, they may have struggled against bondage and oppression. However, once the Romans converted to Christianity and the religion spread throughout Europe, it was mainly the Christian authorities who were the primary source of bondage and oppression towards other nations. It wasn't until the Reformation that some nations started to break away from the Church of Rome that there started to be progress towards more democratic forms of government, but even then, it required secular revolutions (such as the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Revolutions of 1848, to cite a few examples) to actually bring about governments favorable to democracy, freedom, and liberty.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Ok,

A. Exactly how many examples are required?
B. Where did you get the number required from?

You're the one making the claim. Support with whatever evidence that you think is reasonably compelling. NB. Extreme, non representative outliers will be treated as such.

 

[1robin]

I don't see THIS POST as "huge".

In addition to it requiring more time than I had at the moment, it is also IMO not the best representation of the threads title.

To be honest, if you don't have the time or interest necessary to properly discuss the issues at hand, I'm not interested.

You can opt out at any time you wish, but I usually attract between 5 and a dozen of the longest winded opponents every time I debate which all place needs on my time. I try and determine which ones deserve those most time as well as those that deserved the least.

Keep going, or call it quits. It's totally up to you. I won't take issue with either.

 

[1robin]

Perhaps in the early days of Christianity, when they were still an outlawed religion within the Roman Empire, they may have struggled against bondage and oppression. However, once the Romans converted to Christianity and the religion spread throughout Europe, it was mainly the Christian authorities who were the primary source of bondage and oppression towards other nations. It wasn't until the Reformation that some nations started to break away from the Church of Rome that there started to be progress towards more democratic forms of government, but even then, it required secular revolutions (such as the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Revolutions of 1848, to cite a few examples) to actually bring about governments favorable to democracy, freedom, and liberty.

I am not denying that the Christian Roman Empire abused it's authority, but Christian persecution is in no way what so ever limited to the early Roman empire. It was persecuted in it's own country during it's founding all the way through todays persecution in the middle East and Africa. Not to mention the "great" communist atheistic utopias which persecuted all religions. Christianity and Judaism comprise almost certainly the most persecuted religious groups in human history.

 

[1robin]

You're the one making the claim. Support with whatever evidence that you think is reasonably compelling. NB. Extreme, non representative outliers will be treated as such.

1. For the first time in our history a major political party (no secret which one) removed God from their platform.
2. For the first time military chaplains are restricted as to whether they can display a cross or mention Christ.
3. Regular Christians Are No Longer Welcome in American Culture
4. Justices, Seeking Compromise, Return Contraception Case to Lower Courts
5. NJ Teacher Suspended for Giving Student a Bible, Sharing Verse
6. Bremerton High School coach placed on leave for praying on field - CNN
7. Atlanta Fire Chief: I was fired because of my Christian faith
8. Marine court-martialed for refusing to remove Bible verse
9. InterVarsity Christian Fellowship gets booted off another college campus for membership policy
10. Christian Adoption Agencies Under Attack Again from Gay Couples with Hurt Feelings
11. Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.

In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.
Are Christians in America Under Attack?


I could post those types of examples for days but must stop somewhere. Secular leftists are turning this country from a democracy (and the greatest nation in human history) into an oligarchy of pure evil where judges hold absolute power (and a nation in moral decline across the board and in more debt than we will ever pay off).

BTW no pathetic liberal tactics where you deny a source without finding any fault with the actual claim, will be considered. I do not care what you think of the source the claim stands or falls on it's own merits.

 

[Skwim]

1. For the first time in our history a major political party (no secret which one) removed God from their platform.
2. For the first time military chaplains are restricted as to whether they can display a cross or mention Christ.
3. Regular Christians Are No Longer Welcome in American Culture
4. Justices, Seeking Compromise, Return Contraception Case to Lower Courts
5. NJ Teacher Suspended for Giving Student a Bible, Sharing Verse
6. Bremerton High School coach placed on leave for praying on field - CNN
7. Atlanta Fire Chief: I was fired because of my Christian faith
8. Marine court-martialed for refusing to remove Bible verse
9. InterVarsity Christian Fellowship gets booted off another college campus for membership policy
10. Christian Adoption Agencies Under Attack Again from Gay Couples with Hurt Feelings
11. Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.

In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.
Are Christians in America Under Attack?


I could post those types of examples for days but must stop somewhere. Secular leftists are turning this country from a democracy (and the greatest nation in human history) into an oligarchy of pure evil where judges hold absolute power (and a nation in moral decline across the board and in more debt than we will ever pay off).

BTW no pathetic liberal tactics where you deny a source without finding any fault with the actual claim, will be considered. I do not care what you think of the source the claim stands or falls on it's own merits.

Yeah, those poor Christians who think they're entitled to remain above the law of the land. Boo hoo!

.​

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

1. For the first time in our history a major political party (no secret which one) removed God from their platform.
2. For the first time military chaplains are restricted as to whether they can display a cross or mention Christ.
3. Regular Christians Are No Longer Welcome in American Culture
4. Justices, Seeking Compromise, Return Contraception Case to Lower Courts
5. NJ Teacher Suspended for Giving Student a Bible, Sharing Verse
6. Bremerton High School coach placed on leave for praying on field - CNN
7. Atlanta Fire Chief: I was fired because of my Christian faith
8. Marine court-martialed for refusing to remove Bible verse
9. InterVarsity Christian Fellowship gets booted off another college campus for membership policy
10. Christian Adoption Agencies Under Attack Again from Gay Couples with Hurt Feelings
11. Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.

In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.
Are Christians in America Under Attack?


I could post those types of examples for days but must stop somewhere.

BTW no pathetic liberal tactics where you deny a source without finding any fault with the actual claim, will be considered. I do not care what you think of the source the claim stands or falls on it's own merits.

So a bunch of misrepresentations, PRATTS, slanted opinion pieces and similar. Suspected as much.

I'm as conservative as you like, and a life long fully committed Christian. But this cringeworthy need for comfortable, safe, happy Westerners to cry "persecution!!" over a basic increase in equality sickens me.

If you want to live in a theocracy where you can force people to abide by your religious tenets, fine. That's a valid POV, if you're brave enough to admit it. Do not for the barest second, however, pretend, let alone expect others to pretend, that just because you CAN'T force others to abide by your beliefs, that you are being "persecuted".

No, supporting secular rules in a secular society is not, and never will be, persecution.

Secular leftists are turning this country from a democracy (and the greatest nation in human history) into an oligarchy of pure evil where judges hold absolute power (and a nation in moral decline across the board and in more debt than we will ever pay off).

You don't sound particularly interested in democracy if you want to force everyone to be like you. I have no idea what point you think you're making about judges or debt, nor what either of those things have to do with persecution.​

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Yeah, those poor Christians who think they're entitled to remain above the law of the land. Boo hoo!

.​

What I like to call "armchair" persecution.
I theorise that since the Bible speaks about how the true believers will find themselves being persecuted, and that such persecution is a sign you're on the right path, it pulls at the conscience of many overweight, under exercised middle class westerners that their lives are somewhat lacking in persecution, and so to cover this seeming gap in their spiritual lives, they'll desperately take anything remotely misconstruable as persecution and wrap it around themselves like a big reasuring blanket.
..."unfounded internet rumour that one of the Columbine murderers asked someone if they were a Christian before he killed her? HE WAS PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS! Thank goodness, Christians are being persecuted, I am a Christian, therefore I am being persecuted, QED. I'm so glad I can sleep soundly in my warm queen size bed after eating twice my daily recommended caloric requirement and not feel guilty about the world's poor or starving. What with me being PERSECUTED and all, I must be on the right track. I can't wait for the "war on Christmas" to start up to make me feel even more persecuted and thereby justify my blatant crass consumerism!"

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Here's a simple personal bias detecting tool: "If A Muslim were to treat a Christian person the way the Christian person in the outrage story was treating anyone else, would I be responding the same way?"

Plug in any/all of the above articles, and let me know how you go.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

 

[Enoch07]

What I like to call "armchair" persecution.
I theorise that since the Bible speaks about how the true believers will find themselves being persecuted, and that such persecution is a sign you're on the right path, it pulls at the conscience of many overweight, under exercised middle class westerners that their lives are somewhat lacking in persecution, and so to cover this seeming gap in their spiritual lives, they'll desperately take anything remotely misconstruable as persecution and wrap it around themselves like a big reasuring blanket.
..."unfounded internet rumour that one of the Columbine murderers asked someone if they were a Christian before he killed her? HE WAS PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS! Thank goodness, Christians are being persecuted, I am a Christian, therefore I am being persecuted, QED. I'm so glad I can sleep soundly in my warm queen size bed after eating twice my daily recommended caloric requirement and not feel guilty about the world's poor or starving. What with me being PERSECUTED and all, I must be on the right track. I can't wait for the "war on Christmas" to start up to make me feel even more persecuted and thereby justify my blatant crass consumerism!"

China has the Dhali Lama listed as an oppressor. That's a single man oppressing an entire country! So apparently oppression has nothing to do with the size of the oppresed/oppressor.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

China has the Dhali Lama listed as an oppressor. That's a single man oppressing an entire country! So apparently oppression has nothing to do with the size of the oppresed/oppressor.

Interestingly, I consider the Dhali Lam's oppression of China and the oppression of Christians in the Anglophone West to be roughly on par.