Is Polygamy As Practiced An Immoral Disaster?

[Sunstone]

There have sometimes been discussions of polygamy on the Forums that seem to focus on polygamy in the abstract. In this discussion, I would like to focus on polygamy as actually practiced. That's because I think that focusing on polygamy in the abstract, while interesting enough in it's own right, does not take into fair account what polygamy would look like in actual practice. And to really understand the morality of a thing, you must not merely understand it's ideal, but also it's common manifestations.

For instance, in Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, there are polygamists who, in practice, marry 13 year old girls to much older men who already have multiple wives. In practice, younger men are driven from the community in order to provide the older poygamists with a supply of girls to marry, for the younger men would otherwise compete with the older polygamists for brides.

In those same communities, the polygamists are often on welfare because they cannot support all their wives and children by themselves.

Again, there are some in the Muslim community in the United States who practice polygamy. In practice, this often amounts to a man taking a second wife without the consent of his first wife, who is so dependent on his financial support that her divorcing him is simply not a realistic option for her.

Here is further information on the practical problems of polygamy:

http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2006/07/23/muslim-polygamy-in-america/#more-356

http://hedonist.progressiveislam.org/?p=81#comments

http://hedonist.progressiveislam.org/?p=82#comments

What do you think of the morality of a polygamist community driving it's young men out in order to increase the supply of brides for older men?

What do you think of the fact that many polygamists must resort to welfare to make ends meet? Is it immoral to rely on the state to support one's wives and children when the choice to have multiple wives was your own?

Ideally, polygamy would be between consenting partners only, but in practice it often seems to involve a non consenting partner or a partner too young for legal consent. How does this impact your thoughts about polygamy?

Why does there seem to be a relationship between the practice of polygamy and financially dependent women?

Are you for or against polygamy?

On what grounds are you for or against polygamy?

Is polygamy as it's practiced often immoral? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Mike182]

For instance, in Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, there are polygamists who, in practice, marry 13 year old girls to much older men who already have multiple wives. In practice, younger men are driven from the community in order to provide the older poygamists with a supply of girls to marry, for the younger men would otherwise compete with the older polygamists for brides.

you don't mention sex at all in this, are we looking at the values of polygamy, or the sexual practise of polygamy - and if both, we should differentiate between the two when talking about different examples, because if the 13 yr old girls were then put into the sexual side of the relationship, it would be morally wrong in my oppinion.

In those same communities, the polygamists are often on welfare because they cannot support all their wives and children by themselves.

if we accept this as true, maybe it's time said polygamists realised that women are fully capable of working as well :sarcastic

Again, there are some in the Muslim community in the United States who practice polygamy. In practice, this often amounts to a man taking a second wife without the consent of his first wife, who is so dependent on his financial support that her divorcing him is simply not a realistic option for her.

this is selfish, in my oppinion, but there are also a lot of women in monogamous relationships in the same situation, "i can't leave, i have no where to go..." - i see this as a valid point for concideration, but one can't criticise polygamy as a concept for this.

What do you think of the morality of a polygamist community driving it's young men out in order to increase the supply of brides for older men?

it's wrong and selfish.

What do you think of the fact that many polygamists must resort to welfare to make ends meet? Is it immoral to rely on the state to support one's wives and children when the choice to have multiple wives was your own?

the same applies to single mums, does it not? why should they get welfare when they chose to have kids, and then chose to leave the support of their husband.

i disagree with the above argument, the state should support all of its members, no matter what the circumstances - however, as i said above, women are perfectly capable of earning money in careers, i am assuming they are not allowed to under a polygamous relationship, which is wrong. but again, if they are allowed to go out and work, and they do, but still don't have enough to support the whole family unit, they obviously need state funds.

Ideally, polygamy would be between consenting partners only, but in practice it often seems to involve a non consenting partner or a partner too young for legal consent. How does this impact your thoughts about polygamy?

it doesn't impact my thoughts about polygamy, only about some members of humanity.

Why does there seem to be a relationship between the practice of polygamy and financially dependent women?

i questions if there actually is a relationship between the practise of polygamy and financially dependant women, like i said above, the same situation applies to a lot of monogamous women.

On what grounds are you for or against polygamy?

i am in support of it, though i do not know if i would do it or not. i know someone who actually practices polygamy, and she is no immoral, nor are the people she practices it with. i do not think that any consentual sexual activity is immoral, but you are right, there are aspects of some polygamous behaviour that are questionable.

Is polygamy as it's practiced often immoral? If so, why? If not, why not?

no, but like i said above, there are aspects of some polygamouse behaviour that are questionable.

 

[niceguy]

What do you think of the morality of a polygamist community driving it's young men out in order to increase the supply of brides for older men?

Unaccepable behaviour

What do you think of the fact that many polygamists must resort to welfare to make ends meet? Is it immoral to rely on the state to support one's wives and children when the choice to have multiple wives was your own?

Unacceplable if they planned to live on welfare, acceptable if a polygamistic family ends up in trouble forcing them to accept welfare (job loss for instance). Acceptable if the parts involed already lived on welfare since their fused economy may actually improve.

Ideally, polygamy would be between consenting partners only, but in practice it often seems to involve a non consenting partner or a partner too young for legal consent. How does this impact your thoughts about polygamy?

Not acceptable, this is also a crime, enforce the law. All marriges coersed or under age marriges should be considered null and void. There should be no forced divorces since divorces can only take place if there are a marrige to divorce from, and in my opinion there are none.

Why does there seem to be a relationship between the practice of polygamy and financially dependent women?

Some cultures adopted polygamy as a way to support widows, a man could for instance take his late brothers wife as a second wife in order to keep her supported. This is a good thing but a custom like this may be expanded upon and even leed to criminal acts (murder you brother to get to his wife).

Are you for or against polygamy?

Legally for, I am however in a mostly Lutheran country and the Christan churches do dissalow polygamy and this is the culture I have been raised in. I however do not have any problem with other people practicing poygamy thou and I belive that my country should legaly recognise such marriges. They should also allow such marriges to take place here, not only recognice existing onces.

On what grounds are you for or against polygamy?

Concenting adults, regardless of sex....

Is polygamy as it's practiced often immoral? If so, why? If not, why not?

Immoral when missused such in your examples, however I refuse to recognice coearsed and non consent involving marriges.

 

[cardero]

As practiced, is polygamy usually immoral?
My father doesn't confess it is immoral but he continues to contend that it is not without it's share of problems. He doesn't speak from experience but most likely through observation. I would say that if the consent and responsibility and goals of the REALationship are shared then you are off to a fine start. If the love is accepting between all members then you are half way there. The only hitch in this arrangement that I can forsee is time and attention, which would have to be equally distributed (including the time and attention needed for yourself). These insights would also apply if marriage wasn't an issue.

 

[turk179]

As I cannot find any real sites that condone polygamy where the practices are recognized as more moralistic(I use the term moral loosely due to the fact that ones list of what they deem immoral varies greatly from individual to individual) I therefore must vote that polygamy is immoral as practiced. I admit that I did not look very hard and I am sure that you will find some cases of polygamists in the ideal situation which for me would be that there was no limitation to being one man and several women or vice versa or any combination and that all members were of legal consenting age and there was no jealousy with all members knowing about all other members. All in all I am completely in favor of polygamy in this ideal setting but as it apparently stands now I must vote yes to it being immoral.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I don't have time to get into the social implications, but strictly from a religious point-of-view, nothing in the Bible says that polygamy is wrong. Now there are issues regarding service in the priesthood and ministry, but that's it.

 

[Æsahættr]

Traditional polygamy tends to be immoral, because it's often based on a sexist one-way form of polygamy. Polyamomy on the other hand is very different (polyamorous families are complex mixes of relationships where people enter into more than one relationship at the same time, while keeping the family unit, and does not discriminate by sex). Polyamomy has been shown to lead to less affairs out of offical relationships, and evidence also suggests that it is beneficial for children as well.

 

[PureX]

Polygamy, as it's practiced, it's essentially exploitation. Very few women will choose to be one wife among several if they believe they have a choice, and if they have not been pre-programmed by dominant males from birth to accept such a condition. And to tell the truth, I suspect that this has always been the case, in modern times and times past.

And of course men will not accept being one of several husbands.

The truth is that if polygamy were legal, and men and women were given true freedom of choice in that regard, almost no one would choose such an arrangement. And the few who do, I believe, should have the right to live by their choice.

 

[Fluffy]

It is just as unfair to refer to a 13 year old joining a 50 year old man's groups of wives as polygamy as it would be to refer to non consensual sex as simply sex.

For example, theoretically I believe there is nothing wrong with sex. In practice many other things can happen that can cause harm related to sex. However, the act itself remains amoral. I take the same stance with polygamy.

 

[almifkhar]

the way the mormans do it really bothers me, because there is simply no way a husband can be fair to 20+ wives

in islam, the 4 limit does not bother me so long as the man is doing it by islam.

personally i think any man who wants 2 or more wives is a fool, i could not imagine the hell he goes through because everytime he turns around a wife is yelling at him about money and such. seems to me like one big headache.

note to all

in islam, if a wife to be does not want her husband to marry another, she simply has to state this in the marriage contract. if he disobeys she can divorce no problem.

 

[Revasser]

the way the mormans do it really bothers me, because there is simply no way a husband can be fair to 20+ wives.

Mormons don't do it. The practice, as I understand it, was instituted for a specific reason at a specific time and was discontinued over a century ago.

On the actual topic...

Well, I think where a polygamous relationship is two or more women in what basically amounts to parallel monogamous relationships with a single man, there can often be problems. And, as Phil describes in his OP, communities where this kind of thing is considered the norm often have all sorts of problems that stem from it.

So in that way, I might say, yes, the practice of it is often what I would consider "immoral." On the other hand, I think Æsahættr makes a good point. Less "traditional" polyamorous relationships where the people are each in involved in the "relationship" with everyone else can be very stable and nourishing for the participants. I'm personally aquainted with a polyamorous relationship or four people (though admittedly, they are all men) that is one the most stable, equitable relationships I have seen. There is no cheating that I'm aware of, everything is shared and everyone seems very content.

In this instance, I would say that that relationship is more "moral" than monogamous relationships I have seen.

 

[Sunstone]

Polygamy is like Marxism: Nice enough in theory, sucks in practice.

 

[cardero]

Every marriage has its share of problems and if a polygamous relation is encouraged, I do not believe the problems have to escalate with the amount of partners permitted in the relationship. In fact many of the problems associated with marriage should decrease with the extra attention available. Financial problems should be easier to handle, with many responsible working partners, it should be easy to afford comfortable accommodations. The amount of care and attention given to children should increase (providing you don’t want a family of 32 children). The burden of maintaining and supporting a household should be shared. I am not saying that a marriage couple cannot handle this but not everyone is as fortunate as some marriage couples nor am I insinuating that more is better (merrier). I still feel that if someone has the ability to distribute their love to many partners and as long as each partner is willing to accept this love and the responsibility that is involved with committing toward a family unit than they should have the freedom to pursue it. Is polygamy for everyone? It certainly is not but I will confess, that in the years to come if our society makes it as difficult for a married couple to survive in this economy, many people will not be judging polygamy as moral or amoral, they will probably not even stand on the marriage ceremony. Multiple partnerships will exist as a way to make ends meet (and you can take that meaning anyway you want).

 

[Mike182]

Polygamy is like Marxism: Nice enough in theory, sucks in practice.

i disagree with this.

my friend, who is about 37 ish, has a boyfriend. her boyfriend likes her, and she likes him, they have a relationship that is very strong. she, however, wants something more in her sex life, she enjoys sex with more than one person. he is quite happy to let her go away for one night a week while she meets up with other people of similar situations (people who she knows, this is not a "dirty" practise) and they have the sex they enjoy, and then go home.

it is obviously not as simple as that, as there are always emotional attatchment to sex, but there is sex as a want to be close to someone you love, and sex because you want gratifying - in this case, polygamy gratifies, and it works - all parties consent, all get what they want, no one is unhappy or looses out.

he does not want to be involved in this sort of sexual practise, but he is happy to let her be involved, because he really likes her and wants to be with her - because he can't gratify the need she has, he is willing and able to put his emotions to one side for her benefit.



on another note, may i remind people that there are different forms of polygamy, some not involving marriage (like the situation above) - it's not just one man taking many wives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Forms_of_polygamy

 

[cardero]

Polygamy is like Marxism: Nice enough in theory, sucks in practice.

The problem with Marxism is that it tried to appeal (read: enforced) to a broad audience, polygamy is only trying to appeal to a few um..... women.

 

[Fluffy]

Mormons don't do it. The practice, as I understand it, was instituted for a specific reason at a specific time and was discontinued over a century ago.

]

It was discontinued by the main branch of Mormonism. Some of the other splinter groups still practice it although I am uncertain as to whether they claim to be Mormon.

 

[coberst]

I see nothing wrong with polygomy.