Is Jesus God?

[Yoshua]

They are actually one in the same.


Amen.


Acts2:32 This Jesus, hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the 'promise' of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

God hath made both Lord and Christ.


To a Trinitarian this verse is in a foreign language! It cannot be comprehended......?

Hi Notaclue,

So what is the issue here? I don’t see any.

Jesus Christ is Lord and Christ. He is the appointed one to be crucified as the Son, Lord and Christ.

What is your point? I don’t think this is foreign for me.

Thanks

 

[james2ko]

Hi James, There is no problem on how John did not use “I” for he was speaking about himself. But your example does not justify 2 Cor. 3:17-18. Paul is not John. Their style of writing or narration can’t be both the same. Do you know the background of Paul?

John is narrating in a story; Paul is narrating in doctrinal sense. Paul speaks in defense of his faith, he used to comment and explain things in a question (see v.1 & 8). If you really look at the context, I think you should see those things. A big difference, James.

2 Cor. 3:17-1817. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1. If Paul's statement is doctrinal, then we should carefully consider Paul's plain words and conclude Christ was the spirit . You accuse me of taking Paul's statement out of context, but fail to explain how and why 2 Co 3:17-18 means something other than Christ being the hs.

I just want to cite this scriptures and ask you something. The Holy Spirit is obviously the one saying those messages. Look at Ps. 95, who is the one who said those message? It is God, Isn’t it?

Now, how will you reconcile those two that the Holy Spirit is speaking in Heb., and God speaking in Psalm??

Heb. 3:7-117. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye will hear his voice,8. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.10. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.11. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Ps. 95:7-11 7. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today if ye will hear his voice,
8. Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11. Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

2. It was the pre-incarnate Christ speaking in Ps 95:8-11. Christ was the hs when Paul quoted Ps 95 in Heb 3. He referred to the glorified Christ as the hs speaking in Ps 95.

Kindly prove how come that a force have those attributes?

If the Holy Spirit is a force (non-personal) like the Jehovah Witnesses believe, does a force speaks, grieve, teach, convicts, guide, rebukes, intercedes, have emotions, testifies, …..??

3. Why do you continue to repeat the same questions that have been answered: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-jesus-god.173687/page-91#post-4679393
Are you ok?

Regarding his personality, I don’t say that the Holy Spirit is a separate person but one God exists in three persons. In your quoted John 16:7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. May I ask this question: Where is Christ now, and where is the Holy Spirit now?

4. The glorified Christ, who is the hs, is in heaven distributing portions of Himself to His believers.

I thought you are interpreting scriptures in its literal sense, the scripture is simply telling Jesus knows all things. Why not for this verse and ok for 2 Cor. 3:17-18??

5. If Christ had to have something revealed to Him (Rev 1:1), simple logic tells us He does not "know" all things.

Do you think that Jesus will be above God’s authority?? Of course not. That is why He is called a servant, a begotten SON. So if there is a Father, there should be a Son. Therefore, logically the Father’s will were accomplished by Jesus Christ (the Son). There is ranking here but not His deity. Additionally, how could God show, communicate with us and accomplish his purpose if He (himself) did not came here in the person of Jesus Christ?

6. So what you are saying is The Father is higher in rank than Christ, but they are equal in deity or godhood ? Do higher ranking military officers have more knowledge and power over the battle than their lower ranking officers, even though they are equally human? Do you see the illogic in your conclusion? Although The Father and Christ are both deity, the scriptures testify the Father is still greater in knowledge and power.

Then we go back to Philippians 2:5-6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Why it is being said or it should be mentioned that He did not regard equality with God if Jesus is not equal with God?

7. Let's read Php 2:6 as it appears in other translations:

(NASB, RV)“Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” .

CJB Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.

ESV who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NET who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, ​

Even though Christ was a deity, he did not regard being equal to God as something He should try to attain or grasp (Satan unsuccessfully tried to attain equality with God--Isa 14:13-15). This indicates Christ was never equal to the Father, just as this and other scriptures testify!

 

[Notaclue]

Hi Notaclue,

Sorry for my late reply. I'm busy for the past few days.

First, who are those sons of God you are referring?

I don’t know when is the second coming of Jesus Christ? How about you?

What do you want to point out with those Scriptures above “teach you all things”?

Thanks

Yoshua said:

First, who are those sons of God you are referring?


Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal.3:26. For ye are all the sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


First, Did God promise himself?.............Christ, God the Son?


Acts2:32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


*Trinitarian View.*


God (Father) giving God (The Son) the gift of God (The Holy Spirit).


Or; God giving Himself to Himself?



Acts2:36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


God has made Jesus, Lord and Christ.......Born from the Dead.



Would it not make more sense for Jesus being the Son of God?


Rev5:6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


*Trinitarian View*

How is God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, of the four beasts?


Peace.

 

[Grumpuss]

The Nephilim are REAL. Just because the NT doesn't mention them much doesn't preclude their presence on Earth, just as all the named demons from the OT are here now, and have multiplied into a serious threat to the forces of light that will soon engage the Antichrist.

Meanwhile we cannot teach these facts about Jesus's identity in schools due to rampant over-political correctness. We have real proof of the Nephilim and yet we have whole disciplines devoted to promoting the lies of dinosaurs, abiogenesis and ancient Earths.

Understanding Jesus's true identity and his importance to our species isn't merely a good idea for academic edification, it is the sole key to our salvation. The coming war, famines and plagues will be unimaginable for those who poop on Jesus and prefer to play Angry Birds on their new iPhones or Internet surf at work for pictures of Ron Jeremy or something.

Did anyone see the latest from Rev. Billy Graham?

http://www.kansascity.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/billy-graham/article70751552.html

It is NEVER too late to repent.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is NEVER too late to repent.

Who told you that_

 

[Grumpuss]

Who told you that_

My immortal soul, via Jesus Christ who redeemed us all.

 

[Yoshua]

1. If Paul's statement is doctrinal, then we should carefully consider Paul's plain words and conclude Christ was the spirit . You accuse me of taking Paul's statement out of context, but fail to explain how and why 2 Co 3:17-18 means something other than Christ being the hs.

Hi James,

I think we both have differences of understanding of how 2 Cor. 3:17 is telling us. Again , I understand this verses not isolating v.17 to define Jesus is the Holy Spirit. If we look at v.6, v.8 down to v.14, it is very clear for me that those verses has a connection with v.17.

Verse15 & v.16 answers v.17. When a man turns to Jesus Christ, the veil is taken away. It describes that Jesus Christ is in their hearts, we have freedom with that Spirit of the Lord. The Holy Spirit came to reveal Jesus Christ, and those who turn to him will be led by the Spirit. It does not tell us that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit like the one in John 4:24 defining who God is "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."(just an example)

2 Cor. 3:17 ……..and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. It says that there is a Spirit of the Lord, it does not emphasized the Spirit of the Lord is Jesus Christ. There is freedom in the Spirit of the Lord. How come Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit if there is a Spirit of the Lord? Isn’t it.

6. who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

8. how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

14. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

15. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

16. but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

2. It was the pre-incarnate Christ speaking in Ps 95:8-11. Christ was the hs when Paul quoted Ps 95 in Heb 3. He referred to the glorified Christ as the hs speaking in Ps 95.

The author of the book of Hebrews is unknown. What I’m proving about those Scriptures is the personality of God and personality of the Holy Spirit. It is God (Yahweh) in Ps. 95.

3. Why do you continue to repeat the same questions that have been answered: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-jesus-god.173687/page-91#post-4679393
Are you ok?

Sorry. I overlook it again.

4. The glorified Christ, who is the hs, is in heaven distributing portions of Himself to His believers.

Do you have a scripture that specifically proving that the Holy Spirit is distributing portions of himself?

Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

6. So what you are saying is The Father is higher in rank than Christ, but they are equal in deity or godhood ? Do higher ranking military officers have more knowledge and power over the battle than their lower ranking officers, even though they are equally human? Do you see the illogic in your conclusion? Although The Father and Christ are both deity, the scriptures testify the Father is still greater in knowledge and power.

In the case of Jesus is different with a military officer in ranking. As Phils. 2:5-6 said that He (Jesus) in the form of God did not consider equality with God. Jesus (a deity) needs to lower Himself in the form of a servant.

Based on this scripture, if Christ was never equal with the Father, then the following questions should be answered:
1.) Why it should be mentioned that He did not regard equality with God if primarily they are not equal?
2.) If Jesus is not equal with the Father (in deity), why He (Jesus) need to be in the form of God?

7. Let's read Php 2:6 as it appears in other translations:

(NASB, RV)“Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” .

CJB Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.

ESV who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NET who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,
Even though Christ was a deity, he did not regard being equal to God as something He should try to attain or grasp (Satan unsuccessfully tried to attain equality with God--Isa 14:13-15). This indicates Christ was never equal to the Father, just as this and other scriptures testify!

Satan wants to be like God. Jesus Christ is differ with Satan. Jesus Christ don’t want to be like God for He is already God.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Yoshua said:

First, who are those sons of God you are referring?


Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal.3:26. For ye are all the sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


First, Did God promise himself?.............Christ, God the Son?

Hi Notaclue,

God promised Himself? I think it is the promise of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. This is about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts2:32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


*Trinitarian View.*


God (Father) giving God (The Son) the gift of God (The Holy Spirit).


Or; God giving Himself to Himself?

Or; God giving Himself to Himself?

32. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

John 14:26
26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Acts2:36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

John 14:26 make it clearer for us to understand that the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father in the name of Jesus, therefore this is consistent with Acts 2:32 as having received.

There is the Father who sent. Christ the receiver and the Holy Spirit as a person whom the Father was sent.

Acts2:36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


God has made Jesus, Lord and Christ.......Born from the Dead.



Would it not make more sense for Jesus being the Son of God?

There is no problem with Christ as Lord and Son of God. He is the Messiah, the anointed one. This is what the bible stated.

Rev5:6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


*Trinitarian View*

How is God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, of the four beasts?

I don’t see any problem with the Son and the Holy Spirit, it has been identified as the lamb and the Spirit of God.

Thanks

 

[moorea944]

Hi James,

I think we both have differences of understanding of how 2 Cor. 3:17 is telling us. Again , I understand this verses not isolating v.17 to define Jesus is the Holy Spirit. If we look at v.6, v.8 down to v.14, it is very clear for me that those verses has a connection with v.17.

Verse15 & v.16 answers v.17. When a man turns to Jesus Christ, the veil is taken away. It describes that Jesus Christ is in their hearts, we have freedom with that Spirit of the Lord. The Holy Spirit came to reveal Jesus Christ, and those who turn to him will be led by the Spirit. It does not tell us that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit like the one in John 4:24 defining who God is "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."(just an example)

2 Cor. 3:17 ……..and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. It says that there is a Spirit of the Lord, it does not emphasized the Spirit of the Lord is Jesus Christ. There is freedom in the Spirit of the Lord. How come Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit if there is a Spirit of the Lord? Isn’t it.

6. who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

8. how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

14. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

15. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

16. but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The author of the book of Hebrews is unknown. What I’m proving about those Scriptures is the personality of God and personality of the Holy Spirit. It is God (Yahweh) in Ps. 95.

Sorry. I overlook it again.

Do you have a scripture that specifically proving that the Holy Spirit is distributing portions of himself?

Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

In the case of Jesus is different with a military officer in ranking. As Phils. 2:5-6 said that He (Jesus) in the form of God did not consider equality with God. Jesus (a deity) needs to lower Himself in the form of a servant.

Based on this scripture, if Christ was never equal with the Father, then the following questions should be answered:
1.) Why it should be mentioned that He did not regard equality with God if primarily they are not equal?
2.) If Jesus is not equal with the Father (in deity), why He (Jesus) need to be in the form of God?

Satan wants to be like God. Jesus Christ is differ with Satan. Jesus Christ don’t want to be like God for He is already God.

Thanks

In the case of Jesus is different with a military officer in ranking. As Phils. 2:5-6 said that He (Jesus) in the form of God did not consider equality with God. Jesus (a deity) needs to lower Himself in the form of a servant.

I would like to get into this conversation if I may. We really need to read these verses carefully. Which bible says that Jesus "lowered" himself in the form of a servant? Some of the Jews thought Jesus was making himself equal with God, which he never did, but look at the next verse....
"But made himself of no reputation,....."

Being in the "form of God" does not mean your God.

If "in the form of God" means the very nature of God, then Christ could not have been "Very God" while on earth, as trinitarians assert, since this is what he is said to have sacrificed and left behind in coming to the earth.
How was Christ in the form of God? He had the resemblance and demeanour of the Father mentally and morally. His character was the express image of his Father's person. (Heb. 1:3).

Based on this scripture, if Christ was never equal with the Father, then the following questions should be answered:

1.) Why it should be mentioned that He did not regard equality with God if primarily they are not equal?

That's because they were never equal. Bible even says that in verse 7.

Now look at verse 11. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Everything is to the glory of God. Everything that Jesus is to the glory of God. Everything that we do, should be to the glory of God too.

Jesus is not God or co-equal. There is only one true God. His son was just like us. Yes, God was his father, but same nature. The messiah had to be like us to conquer sin. That is why he had to be made lower than the angels.

2.) If Jesus is not equal with the Father (in deity), why He (Jesus) need to be in the form of God?

Jesus did need to be in the "form of God", and so do we. We need to "manifest" God in us. We need to be insync with the father, to have a spiritual mind. Being in the form of God, does not make one God.

 

[Notaclue]

Hi Notaclue,

God promised Himself? I think it is the promise of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. This is about faith in Christ Jesus.


Or; God giving Himself to Himself?

32. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

John 14:26
26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Acts2:36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

John 14:26 make it clearer for us to understand that the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father in the name of Jesus, therefore this is consistent with Acts 2:32 as having received.

There is the Father who sent. Christ the receiver and the Holy Spirit as a person whom the Father was sent.

There is no problem with Christ as Lord and Son of God. He is the Messiah, the anointed one. This is what the bible stated.

I don’t see any problem with the Son and the Holy Spirit, it has been identified as the lamb and the Spirit of God.

Thanks

Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Who did God .........Promise?

Take another look at it. You can do it! You said it was not foreign to you!


Peace.

 

[james2ko]

Hi James, I think we both have differences of understanding of how 2 Cor. 3:17 is telling us. Again , I understand this verses not isolating v.17 to define Jesus is the Holy Spirit. If we look at v.6, v.8 down to v.14, it is very clear for me that those verses has a connection with v.17.

1. I agree. Verses 6-14 are contextual with vs 17. But those passages complement, not contradict, the very plain and direct statement in vs 17, identifying the glorified Christ as the hs. In order for a true contradiction to exist, you would have to find a passage that states, "The Lord is not the spirit".

Verse15 & v.16 answers v.17. When a man turns to Jesus Christ, the veil is taken away. It describes that Jesus Christ is in their hearts, we have freedom with that Spirit of the Lord. The Holy Spirit came to reveal Jesus Christ, and those who turn to him will be led by the Spirit. It does not tell us that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit like the one in John 4:24 defining who God is "God is spirit,and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."(just an example)

2. You're right. The statement about God The Father being "a" spirit in Joh 4:24 is different than Paul's statement in 2 Co 3:17 about Jesus being "the" spirit.

The author of the book of Hebrews is unknown. What I’m proving about those Scriptures is the personality of God and personality of the Holy Spirit. It is God (Yahweh) in Ps. 95.

3. What you haven't proven is the personality of the hs is "not" the glorified Christ.

Do you have a scripture that specifically proving that the Holy Spirit is distributing portions of himself? Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

If Jesus is not equal with the Father (in deity), why He (Jesus) need to be in the form of God?

4. Christ was equal with the Father in that they were both in spirit form (morphe---spirit beings). Just as you and I are equally human beings. The difference is Jesus was lower in rank than His Father (Joh 14:28) and did not want to make the same mistake satan made by "grasping" or seizing the opportunity to be equal to God The Father.

In the case of Jesus is different with a military officer in ranking. As Phils. 2:5-6 said that He (Jesus) in the form of God did not consider equality with God. Jesus (a deity) needs to lower Himself in the form of a servant.

5. You did not finish quoting the passage:

who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Phi 2:6 RSV)​

The "whole" passage clearly indicates, Christ, in his pre-incarnate state , did not want to be like satan and desire equality with God (His Father) as a thing to be "harpagmos" seized or grasped--(verb is in the aorist indicative implying past tense). If someone desires not to attain equality with anyone else, simple logic tells us they cannot be equal. Since Christ and God were both in spirit form, it obviously cannot be referring to their form but their inequality in rank

Based on this scripture, if Christ was never equal with the Father, then the following questions should be answered:1.) Why it should be mentioned that He did not regard equality with God if primarily they are not equal?

7. This is a self refuting question. The fact Christ mentioned He did not regard equality [in rank] with God a thing to be attained/grasped, is the very reason why they could not be equal.

Satan wants to be like God. Jesus Christ is differ with Satan.

8. Yes they are different. Satan wanted to be equal in rank with God, Jesus did not.

Jesus Christ don’t want to be like God for He is already God.

9. That is just as illogical as saying, " Christ doesn't want to be like His Father because He already is His Father". They consist of the same substance (spirit), but differ in rank and status.

 

[Muffled]

My immortal soul, via Jesus Christ who redeemed us all.

So lets get the gist of that. I believe that should mean after death or in Hell also but do you believe that?

 

[Muffled]

I would like to get into this conversation if I may. We really need to read these verses carefully. Which bible says that Jesus "lowered" himself in the form of a servant? Some of the Jews thought Jesus was making himself equal with God, which he never did, but look at the next verse....
"But made himself of no reputation,....."

Being in the "form of God" does not mean your God.

If "in the form of God" means the very nature of God, then Christ could not have been "Very God" while on earth, as trinitarians assert, since this is what he is said to have sacrificed and left behind in coming to the earth.
How was Christ in the form of God? He had the resemblance and demeanour of the Father mentally and morally. His character was the express image of his Father's person. (Heb. 1:3).




That's because they were never equal. Bible even says that in verse 7.

Now look at verse 11. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Everything is to the glory of God. Everything that Jesus is to the glory of God. Everything that we do, should be to the glory of God too.

Jesus is not God or co-equal. There is only one true God. His son was just like us. Yes, God was his father, but same nature. The messiah had to be like us to conquer sin. That is why he had to be made lower than the angels.


Jesus did need to be in the "form of God", and so do we. We need to "manifest" God in us. We need to be insync with the father, to have a spiritual mind. Being in the form of God, does not make one God.

What criteria are you using to say that? I should think the form of God and God are the same thing.

I believe this would be true if Jesus transformed into another form but the verse states that He takes on another form as a man puts on a shirt but is still the same man inside it.

I believe neither verse 6 nor 7 says they were never equal.

I see nothing in the passage that says that.

I believe this is unproven and remains false.

I believe this statement is true however God in us is still God. Taking on our form does not change His form.

 

[Yoshua]

I would like to get into this conversation if I may. We really need to read these verses carefully. Which bible says that Jesus "lowered" himself in the form of a servant? Some of the Jews thought Jesus was making himself equal with God, which he never did, but look at the next verse....
"But made himself of no reputation,....."

Hi Moorea,

Firstly, you have not reconciled John 20:28 as the proof of Christ deity. Second, why it should/it is stated that “But made himself of no reputation”? What is to be “made himself of no reputation”? Why no reputation?

Being in the "form of God" does not mean your God.

Why it should/it is stated that Jesus is in the form of God if He is not God? I hope you see the logic behind this.

If we will check the consistency of your statement without textual bias, you should also say: Being in the form of a servant does not mean you are a human/man.

If "in the form of God" means the very nature of God, then Christ could not have been "Very God" while on earth, as trinitarians assert, since this is what he is said to have sacrificed and left behind in coming to the earth.
How was Christ in the form of God? He had the resemblance and demeanour of the Father mentally and morally. His character was the express image of his Father's person. (Heb. 1:3).

Yes, the express image, and they are one. Isn’t it? No problem with that.

If you will look carefully the statement here:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Form of God = God
Form of a servant = Man

If you believe that Jesus is a man then why not treat the statement same as you treat the form of a servant. There should be no bias in understanding the Scripture.
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

That's because they were never equal. Bible even says that in verse 7.

You don’t get it. Look at v.6 first before v.7, if they never equal, why it should be made not equal with God? Why it should be mentioned here? Please answer this.

Now look at verse 11. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Everything is to the glory of God. Everything that Jesus is to the glory of God. Everything that we do, should be to the glory of God too.

Yes, I agree with that.

Jesus did need to be in the "form of God", and so do we. We need to "manifest" God in us. We need to be insync with the father, to have a spiritual mind. Being in the form of God, does not make one God.

Can I tell you that you are in the form of God? Really? Then, you claim that you are God? If we need to manifest God in us then we should not be in the form. Jesus did not told us to be in the form of God to obey His teachings and to show that God manifested in us. Paul likewise. It is only Jesus who is in the form. I think there is no supporting scripture that will validate that. There is none.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Who did God .........Promise?

Take another look at it. You can do it! You said it was not foreign to you!


Peace.

Hi Notaclue,

Yes, not foreign to me, but please rephrase your question what do you want to imply? What do you mean by your question “Who did God .........Promise?”

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

3. What you haven't proven is the personality of the hs is "not" the glorified Christ.

Hi James,

I leave that to you because initially you truly believed that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit while I’m pointing that Jesus is that Spirit that was mentioned in v.3,v.6 & 8 about the Spirit which has a connection. I don’t focus just only the phrase “Now the Lord is the Spirit” and I find it relevant on the next phrase “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” This defined what Paul really want to imply about the Spirit.

1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

12. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14. For the body is not one member, but many.
15. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
16. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
17. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19. And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20. But now there are many members, but one body.
21. And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

Yeah. This is a good example. It does not literally saying that distribution is somewhat like a mystical or magical. I don’t think this is what Paul is emphasizing here. Just to make clear with you about the term distribution.


I believed and understand that this emphasize the Spirit was given to each believer as a ministry gift (1 Cor. 12:7,18). That gift is the Spirit's choice, not the believer's. This gifts are to serve the body of Christ, the church (1 Cor. 12:7).

4. Christ was equal with the Father in that they were both in spirit form (morphe---spirit beings). Just as you and I are equally human beings. The difference is Jesus was lower in rank than His Father (Joh 14:28) and did not want to make the same mistake satan made by "grasping" or seizing the opportunity to be equal to God The Father.

I don’t think you are trying to say that Jesus is inferior and subordinate with the Father like the JW beliefs.

5. You did not finish quoting the passage:

who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Phi 2:6 RSV)
The "whole" passage clearly indicates, Christ, in his pre-incarnate state , did not want to be like satan and desire equality with God (His Father) as a thing to be "harpagmos" seized or grasped--(verb is in the aorist indicative implying past tense). If someone desires not to attain equality with anyone else, simple logic tells us they cannot be equal. Since Christ and God were both in spirit form, it obviously cannot be referring to their form but their inequality in rank

First, Jesus Christ truly did not have the evil intent like satan. So, I don’t think that saying that phrase “Christ, in his pre-incarnate state , did not want to be like satan” is not valid. Therefore, the desire of equality with God is not to be counted to Christ as his nature—to be like God.

My understanding to this in relation to “harpagmos” is that Jesus who is in the form of God did not count equality with God because of his lowering Himself by taking the form of a servant.-man. He did not take the act of seizing but to fulfill the prophecy of God with us –Immanuel.

Jesus did not become less than God in His Incarnation, but He added humanity to His deity. He took on the form of a man. It is not subtracted but added. He was both fully God and fully human.

7. This is a self refuting question. The fact Christ mentioned He did not regard equality [in rank] with God a thing to be attained/grasped, is the very reason why they could not be equal.

Then, that would simply saying that--before they are equal--and now He did not regard that equality with God. There is no self-refutation here. It means that he has something that He has but does not use it for His advantage—to be equal with God. This is why “He did not regard equality was mentioned.”

Thanks

 

[james2ko]

I leave that to you because initially you truly believed that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit while I’m pointing that Jesus is that Spirit that was mentioned in v.3,v.6 & 8 about the Spirit which has a connection. I don’t focus just only the phrase “Now the Lord is the Spirit” and I find it relevant on the next phrase “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” This defined what Paul really want to imply about the Spirit.

1. Paul identifies who the spirit is (the Lord is the spirit) then alludes to the Lord's/spirit's distributive effect (where the spirit of the Lord is). It is still the same person--Jesus Christ. Had Paul not included the definitive, identifying phrase --the Lord is the spirit--then your implication of two distinct personalities would have merit.

Yeah. This is a good example. It does not literally saying that distribution is somewhat like a mystical or magical. I don’t think this is what Paul is emphasizing here. Just to make clear with you about the term distribution.

2. Not mystical or magical, but certainly supernatural.

I believed and understand that this emphasize the Spirit was given to each believeras a ministry gift (1 Cor. 12:7,18). That gift is the Spirit's choice, not the believer's.This gifts are to serve the body of Christ, the church (1 Cor. 12:7).

3. I agree. Emphasizing the point that the glorified Jesus--who is the spirit- is distributable.

I don’t think you are trying to say that Jesus is inferior and subordinate with the Father like the JW beliefs.

4. No. I am saying He is inferior and subordinate to the Father like the bible indicates. I don't believe every JW belief is in error any more than every one of yours or my organization's beliefs are correct.

First, Jesus Christ truly did not have the evil intent like satan. So, I don’t think that saying that phrase “Christ, in his pre-incarnate state , did not want to be like satan” is not valid. Therefore, the desire of equality with God is not to be counted to Christ as his nature—to be like God.

5. I made a comparative statement between Christ and satan, which you are mistakenly perceiving as a definitive statement. Unlike satan, who tried to seize [harpagmos] an opportunity to be equal with God, Christ did not. Indicating Christ was not of equal rank and status to His Father. Though He was in the same "morphe" [form]--a spirit entity--as His Father.

My understanding to this in relation to “harpagmos” is that Jesus who is in the form of God did not count equality with God because of his lowering Himself by taking the form of a servant.-man. He did not take the act of seizing but to fulfill the prophecy of God with us –Immanuel.

6. This explains the action the pre-incarnate Christ took to indicate He did not want to be equal to His Father. This supports the fact He was not equal in rank and status to His Father. If someone desires not to attain equality with anyone else, simple logic tells us they cannot be equal.

Jesus did not become less than God in His Incarnation, but He added humanity to His deity. He took on the form of a man. It is not subtracted but added. He was both fully God and fully human.

7. Php 2:6 indicates even in His pre-incarnate form [morphe], Jesus was a lesser [unequal] God than His Father. Suggested by the fact He did not want to seize an opportunity to be His equal.

Then, that would simply saying that--before they are equal--and now He did not regard that equality with God. There is no self-refutation here. It means that he has something that He has but does not use it for His advantage—to be equal with God. This is why “He did not regard equality was mentioned.”

8. So what you are saying is since Christ was already equal to His Father, He did not want to take advantage of seizing [harpagmos] an opportunity of being equal to His Father??? Makes no sense at all. What makes sense is the fact Christ was not equal to His Father and did not consider equality something to seize or snatch violently [harpagmos].

 

[Notaclue]

Hi Notaclue,

Yes, not foreign to me, but please rephrase your question what do you want to imply? What do you mean by your question “Who did God .........Promise?”

Thanks

Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Who did God promise?


(A) Son of God

(B) God the Son

(C) Its a mystery


What is your choice?


Peace.

 

[Notaclue]

So lets get the gist of that. I believe that should mean after death or in Hell also but do you believe that?

Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Who did God promise?


(A) Son of God

(B) God the Son

(C) Its a mystery


What is your choice?


Peace.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus is a manifestation of God.