Is Jesus God?

[outhouse]

And it's not my opinion because I did not write the Greek translation of John 1:1;

That's great that you believe that, and I respect you stated it was your opinion.

Their delusions and deceptions does not drown out the truth on what came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ himself

They were the same people who claimed Jesus was "son of god" the context of such did not mean a literal "son of god" in Mark.

And it certainly is NOT the context you are using it.

He said that; I didn't.

We don't know what Jesus said with certainty. The authors wrote rhetorically and used mythology.

I simply echoed the message in clarity

The same way the people following the Emperor call him "son of god" first.

John

Remember this book had a different Christology then the other books written before that book. Its not the end all to the definition.

Its just an opinion by Hellenistic people far removed from Galilean Aramaic apocalyptic Judaism, and Jesus and Johns life.

 

[outhouse]

. I am talking about the converted Jews who buried the martyrs in the Roman Catacombs

But he martyrs you speak of were also Hellenist.

Every last one of his Aramaic Galilean followers historicity stops after his death. We have no idea what happened to them.

Christians made use of symbols, which they depicted on the walls of the catacombs

Yes and these are all very late, and are derived from the gospel traditions.

 

[outhouse]

The Greek letters alpha and omega surround the halo of Jesus in the catacombs of Rome from the 4th century.

The "Alpha and Omega" can only mean that Jesus is God,

No, it means that is how they perceived him 400-500 years s later. "the beginning and the end"


And something to think about.

Wiki refers in one point to Rev below.

"It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here ... There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such."

 

[Kolibri]

Can you not see that the two are ONE?

No. But we have been over this what seems like hundreds of times. I think @moorea944 had a good argument for how agency, though he did not use the word, nullifies the connection. In Deut it also says Jehovah is God of Gods, whereas when speaking of Jesus the Bible switches to King of those that rules as Kings. It is a different set of people and or imaginary people being compared.

 

[katiemygirl]

"OneThatGotAway, post: 4209140, member: 20501"]If I had a narrow view of early Christianity and accept the Trinity like some Christians do; then I would logically discard other conflicting verses in the much older Scriptures such as:

1. "I [am] the [YAHWEH] thy God,...Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3 KJV)
2. Hear Israel: YAHWEH is our God, YAHWEH is one (Deuteronomy 6:4)
3. I am YAHWEH. That is my name! And my glory will I not give to another; neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8)​

1. There is ample evidence that Jesus was worshiped. The apostle Thomas certainly believed Jesus was God when he said, "My Lord and my God.
2. God being ONE has already been addressed. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the ONE God just as a husband and wife are ONE flesh.
3. This is a big one! You really need to consider ALL of the verses concerning the glory which God gave/shared with His Son. According to the Scriptures, God, the Father did give His glory to another. He gave it to Jesus.

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. (John 8:54)

John referred to Jesus as the glory of the Father:

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us; we have beheld his glory, the glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

Jesus himself spoke of the glory which he had with his Father before the world was created:

“When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, ‘Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work which you gave me to do; and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made.” John 17:1-5

Other NT writings concur with John that Jesus is God’s glory, going so far as to even identify Christ as the very Lord of glory!

“None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” 1 Corinthians 2:8

“In their case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness/image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For it is the God who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 4:4-6

“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the Heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance/effulgence of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,” Hebrews 1:1-3

"My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory." James 2:1

 

[katiemygirl]

No. But we have been over this what seems like hundreds of times. I think @moorea944 had a good argument for how agency, though he did not use the word, nullifies the connection. In Deut it also says Jehovah is God of Gods, whereas when speaking of Jesus the Bible switches to King of those that rules as Kings. It is a different set of people and/or imaginary people being compared.

Where are you getting this idea of agency? Please provide a Scripture and an explanation. If memory serves correctly, you mentioned this one other time, possibly twice, but offered no Scriptural support. I apologize up front if I missed it. I would appreciate your doing so now so I can look further into what you are saying.

 

[moorea944]

Good Morning Moore,
Can you please give me the Scripture that says God gave all of the titles you mentioned to His Son? I want to be sure I understand what you are saying.
Katie

The name of God can be carried by anyone through whom He chooses to ‘manifest’ or reveal Himself. So men and angels as well as Jesus can carry God’s name. This is a vital principle which opens up so much of the Bible to us. A son especially may carry the name of his father; he has certain similarities with his father, he may have the same first name - but he is not one and the same person as the father. In the same way a representative of a company may speak on behalf of the company; he may telephone someone on business and say, ‘Hello, this is Unilever here’; he is not Mr. Unilever, but he carries their name because he is working on their behalf. And so it was with Jesus.

One of the passages which is most helpful in demonstrating all this is John 10:34-36. Here the Jews made the mistake which many do today. They thought that Jesus was saying he was God Himself. Jesus corrected them by saying, "Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? If He called them ‘gods’...why do you say of (me)...’You blaspheme!’ because I said, I am the Son of God?’. Jesus is really saying ‘In the Old Testament men are called ‘gods’; I am saying I am the Son of God; so why are you getting so upset?’ Jesus is actually quoting from Ps. 82, where the judges of Israel were called ‘gods’.

It is not surprising that Jesus, as the Son of God and His supreme manifestation to men, should also carry God’s name. He could say "I am come in my Father’s name" (Jn. 5:43). Because of his obedience, Jesus ascended to heaven and God "gave him a name which is above every name" - the name of Yahweh, of God Himself (Phil. 2:9). So this is why we read Jesus saying in Rev. 3:12: "I will write upon him (the believer) the name of my God...and I will write upon him my new name". At the judgment Jesus will give us God’s name; we then will fully carry the name of God. He calls this name, "My new name". Remember, Jesus gave the book of Revelation some years after his ascension into heaven and after he had been given God’s name, as explained in Phil. 2:9. So he can call God’s name "My new name"; the name he had recently been given. We can now properly understand Is. 9:6, where concerning Jesus we are told, "His name (note that) shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father...". This is a prophecy that Jesus would carry all the titles and Name of God when he would return to earth in the future - that he would be the total manifestation or revelation of God to us (1). It was in this sense that he was called ‘Emmanuel’, meaning, ‘God is with us’, although He personally was not God (2). Thus the prophecy of Joel 2 that men would call on the name of Yahweh was fulfilled by people being baptised into the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:21 cf. 38). This also explains why the command to baptize into the name of the Father was fulfilled, as detailed in the Acts record, by baptism into the name of Jesus.

 

[Kolibri]

Where are you getting this idea of agency? Please provide a Scripture and an explanation. If memory serves correctly, you mentioned this one other time, possibly twice, but offered no Scriptural support. I apologize up front if I missed it. I would appreciate your doing so now so I can look further into what you are saying.

I am needing to get out of the house and to my weekend religious meeting, so I can not elaborate now.

But the scriptures that refer to Jesus as the "Chief Agent" by title are Acts 3:15; 5:31; Hebrews 2:10; and Hebrews 12:2

I see that the KJV uses the word author and prince here...from a cursory overlook.

 

[lovemuffin]

Questions for you guys. How would it be belittling Jesus, if He was not God? Can Jesus still do the things He did before if He was not God? What does His divinity have anything to do with His ability to save Christians? Since He IS doing everything from His Father's Will (His Words, not mine: John 5:30), why would it matter if He were God the Father or God the Son?

Does it make a difference, guys? How? and Why?

Perhaps the primary reason why the church fathers insisted upon this is because of the way they understood salvation, which was not just as a sort of legalized forgiveness of a debt, but as the deification of humanity in Christ. For Christians like Gregory of Nazianzen (a principle theologian of the trinitarian doctrine), "salvation" was union with God, and if Jesus was not God, then he could not save, because it would mean that God had not assumed human nature in the incarnation, and "what is not assumed cannot be healed". See here for a little more context.

 

[katiemygirl]

The Greek translators had already substantiated the difference when they carefully chose to call Jesus "Theos" and not "TON THEON".
And it's not my opinion because I did not write the Greek translation of John 1:1; they did. I simply use my eyes to read that there is never a TON THEON attributed to Jesus Christ. There is no opinion on what TON THEON means and Greek translators correctly translate it into English to mean "The God". You're confusing opinion with fact.
So what. Delusional people did existed in ancient times as they do today. Their delusions and deceptions does not drown out the truth on what came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ himself. He said that he was the Son of God and a god. He said that; I didn't. I simply echoed the message in clarity. But don't take my word for it. Let me post his own words again:

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (THEOI)
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:33-36)

Jesus Christ's own disciples called him the Son of God. Other people called him the Son of God.
But unlike other emperors of the world, Satan called Jesus the Son of God. Demons called him the Son of God. And YAHWEH, The God (TON THEON) called him the Son of God. (I'm just saying.)

Are you and other anti-trinitarians aware that the Bible in numerous places say Jehovah is A GOD? Does this make Him a lesser God, or one of many Gods?

Many JW's and anti-trinitarians say that since Jesus is called "a god" in John 1:1 of the NWT, that proves Jesus is a creature.
Really?

Jehovah's Witnesses fail to comprehend the fact that Jehovah is called also "A GOD" many times: Jehovah even calls himself A GOD! If Jesus is A GOD, so is the Father!

Gen. 16:13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

Deut. 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

1 Sam. 2:3 "Boast no more so very proudly, Do not let arrogance come out of your mouth; For the Lord is a God of knowledge, And with Him actions are weighed.

1 Sam. 17:46 that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

1 Chr. 17:24 "And let Thy name be established and magnified forever, saying, 'The Lord of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel; and the house of David Thy servant is established before Thee.

Neh. 9:17 "And they refused to listen, And did not remember Thy wondrous deeds which Thou hadst performed among them; So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt. But Thou art a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness; And Thou didst not forsake them.

Ps 5:4 For Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with Thee.

Ps 7:11 God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.

Ps. 68:20 God is to us a God of deliverances; And to God the Lord belong escapes from death.

Ps 86:15 But Thou, O Lord, art a God merciful and gracious, Slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness and truth.

Ps 89:7 A God greatly feared in the council of the holy ones, And awesome above all those who are around Him?

Isa. 30:18 Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.

Isa. 45:15 Truly, Thou art a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!

Jer. 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the Lord, "And not a God far off?

Jer. 51:56 For the destroyer is coming against her, against Babylon, And her mighty men will be captured, Their bows are shattered; For the Lord is a God of recompense, He will fully repay.

Dan. 2:28 "However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.

Mic 7:18 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.

Even the Watchtower's NWT calls Jehovah "A GOD."

"He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living..." Luke 20:38 (NWT)

 

[katiemygirl]

I am needing to get out of the house and to my weekend religious meeting, so I can not elaborate now.

But the scriptures that refer to Jesus as the "Chief Agent" by title are Acts 3:15; 5:31; Hebrews 2:10; and Hebrews 12:2

I see that the KJV uses the word author and prince here...from a cursory overlook.

Thanks Kolibri. We shall continue this discussion tomorrow. I have Bible study at 5:00 P.M.

 

[katiemygirl]

Perhaps the primary reason why the church fathers insisted upon this is because of the way they understood salvation, which was not just as a sort of legalized forgiveness of a debt, but as the deification of humanity in Christ. For Christians like Gregory of Nazianzen (a principle theologian of the trinitarian doctrine), "salvation" was union with God, and if Jesus was not God, then he could not save, because it would mean that God had not assumed human nature in the incarnation, and "what is not assumed cannot be healed". See here for a little more context.

Carlita, the concept of the trinity was around thousands of yers before Gregory.

 

[lovemuffin]

Carlita, the concept of the trinity was around thousands of years before Gregory.

Please elaborate? You are suggesting that the Christian theology of the trinity predates Christ by 1 or 2 thousand years, which seems novel. If you mean only that there are trinity-esque conceptions prior to Gregory Nazianzen, that's clearly true in some sense, but it's not particularly relevant to what I wrote or to the question as I understood it. Gregory is hugely important to the specifically orthodox Christian trinitarian dogma as it was declared by the ecumenical councils of the 4th-7th centuries or so. The question is about why orthodox theology fought so hard for Christ's equality with the Father, and as a historical matter, Gregory's understanding of salvation is key to that question. The entire thread I linked might be of interest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand your point of view. I don't believe in the trinity.
My point is:

If He is God, He can come down, die for Christians, and rise up in body spirit. There is no separation between the two; hence, the trinity. God is God.

If He is not God, God gave Jesus perfection, the Son of Man, because He is His Son. Jesus said everything He "has been given is from His Father." Every person of God did not do anything of their own, they always did things through God.

So, if God sent Jesus down, made Him perfect, told Him He had a mission to die on the Cross, He did. He rose in body and in spirit to His Father. He still saves Christians.

In scripture, the former scripture suggested that He is God. In the latter, Jesus bluntly says He is not God because nothing He does He cannot do a part from His Father.

It does not matter either way. Jesus is divine with or without being the Father Himself.

To say Jesus cannot save anyone without being His Father is saying God is limited in saving unless He becomes a human to do
so.

On the flip side of the coin, if Jesus cannot save because He is His father, that is saying God is limited in how He wants to save others (either in the flesh or not)

Understand?


Here is a thread about two sides of the story (with scripture): Jesus IS God versus Jesus is NOT God. It doesn't make a difference. Jesus can save either way.

Jesus' Divinity (two links; opposing views; same scripture) | ReligiousForums.com

It makes a huge difference! It make YAHWEH, God the Father out to be a big liar! Because he said:

1. "I [am] the YAHWEH thy God,...Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3 KJV)
2. Hear Israel: YAHWEH is our God, YAHWEH is one (Deuteronomy 6:4)
3. I am YAHWEH. That is my name! And my glory will I not give to another; neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8)
4. "For I [am] YAHWEH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Ya'ocob (Jacob) are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)

Preaching and declaring that YAHWEH "The God" (Ton Theon), "The Father" is ONE for the first 4,000 years to the world; and then forcefully changing their mind from one God to three gods is a big slap in the face to the sons of Jacob because their strong loyalty to the truths in the Torah. The Trinity doctrine is confusion and a ancient strategic plan of the Devil himself: If I can't get them to worship other gods then I will tempt them to worship the Son of God as the God Father.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

it would mean that God had not assumed human nature in the incarnation, and "what is not assumed cannot be healed". See here for a little more context.

Thank you. Which is weird, because it is limiting what God can do and not do.

 

[lovemuffin]

It's not really a question of limiting what God can do but what "salvation" is understood to mean. If it means the proclamation of the Divine Judge that a person is justified (saved; redeemed; forgiven; however you want) then you end up with what most western Christians are familiar with. Saying that "salvation" means a real and transformative union with God isn't limiting God, it's simply understanding what the word salvation means differently. The "healing" in question is salvation in that quote, although this may be clearer only by reading more of Gregory's views on the question. So, in other words, it's not to say that God can't "save" without assuming, but that salvation IS that what is saved becomes united with God. Even if you called it something else, the idea is that God desired to create that union between the Divine and human, and that the incarnation was for this reason.

Re: being a non-trinitarian, at least as far as the question is about why it matters that Jesus is God, it doesn't really matter whether or not you adopt an entirely trinitarian view, but this principle of Gregory's does, I think, explain a lot of the reason why the historical Christian church insisted that Jesus was wholly and entirely God, equal with the Father, rather than a lesser Deity. As I hear you asking the question, it's about what real difference the answer makes. From the patristic standpoint, this is what difference it makes, but it has to be understood within the context of all their other ideas about the relationship between God and humanity.

 

[katiemygirl]

Please elaborate? You are suggesting that the Christian theology of the trinity predates Christ by 1 or 2 thousand years, which seems novel. If you mean only that there are trinity-esque conceptions prior to Gregory Nazianzen, that's clearly true in some sense, but it's not particularly relevant to what I wrote or to the question as I understood it. Gregory is hugely important to the specifically orthodox Christian trinitarian dogma as it was declared by the ecumenical councils of the 4th-7th centuries or so. The question is about why orthodox theology fought so hard for Christ's equality with the Father, and as a historical matter, Gregory's understanding of salvation is key to that question. The entire thread I linked might be of interest.

We see the concept from Genesis forward. "Let US make man in OUR image." Gen. 1:26. I have heard some say God was talking to angels, but that would be impossible because it would make angels co-creators with God, for one thing. And for another, we know Jesus was creator of all things, including the angels. He was before ALL things Col 1:16-27. He was in the beginning with God, the Father. John 1:1.

Again in Gen. 3:22 The Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of US..."

The US had to be deity just as He was in order for Him to say US.

And Gen. 11:7 And the Lord said, "Let US go down and there confuse their language..."

 

[OneThatGotAway]

That's great that you believe that, and I respect you stated it was your opinion.

It's even more greater than millions of people believe that Jesus is not The God; I mean I rejoice greatly with other brothers and sister who continue to share the truth and Good News of YAHWEH's salvation for mankind through his Son, Jesus Christ.
I also rejoice in knowing that it is a fact that Jesus Christ never claim to be Yahweh, The God (Ton Theon) according to any of the Greek New Testament manuscripts.

They were the same people who claimed Jesus was "son of god" the context of such did not mean a literal "son of god" in Mark. And it certainly is NOT the context you are using it.

Let me see, so Yahweh, the Devil, demons, Jesus' disciples, other believers, and non-believers declare that he was the Son of God? I would say that Jesus Christ successfully established that intended truth. Heaven and earth rejoice knowing that millions are in agreement that the Son of God came to earth to lay down his own life for mankind. Do you mean a context something like this?:
"And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of YAHWEH; Hosanna in the highest." (Matthew 21:9)
You see, many Christians worship the Son of God in the same context as Matthew 21:9.

We don't know what Jesus said with certainty. The authors wrote rhetorically and used mythology.

With that line of reasoning, no one really knows if any historical figure ever said anything with certainty. However, the Holy Bible, like many historical documents, are not design to establish scientific certainty without some act of faith and trust on the part of the reader, if left with limited evidence. Society have for centuries put their faith and trust in historical accounts based on the limited evidence at hand without certainty. However, without the use of a video or a time machine, every reader is unable establish with certainty who actually said what in any historical situation. Nevertheless, millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslim believe that a monotheistic God who guides holy men to write accounts of his supernatural events during ancient times in His holy books. But if you cannot get past to putting your faith and trust that there is an Almighty God who is actively controlling the affairs of mankind; then it is a moot point to discuss what other people said in these Holy Scriptures.

You do not know with certainty that any of the Holy Biblical authors wrote anything using mythology. To a certain extent, even you believe and trust that mythology exists in the Holy Bible without certainty. According to the Holy Bible, in which millions of Christians put their faith and trust in, we know it is NOT written that Jesus ever said that he is YAHWEH, or The God (Ton Theon). First, we believe that Bible to be true because we believe that the Almighty God is "I AM".

Frankly, I and others are glad and rejoice that Yahweh, God Almighty has structured the Holy Bible in such a way in order to convince mankind to use that part of their mind (in which they take for granted in their everyday lives): --- Faith and Trust despite having little or no evidence. Unbelievers use their limited faith everyday without certainty.

The same way the people following the Emperor call him "son of god" first.

Not even close. It is the same way that the people of Yahweh, down throughout the centuries, have echoed the truth in the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings of God's Creation, the Great Flood, the parting of the Red Sea, the majesty of King David with Israel's conquests, and the salvation of Jesus Christ for all mankind. Neither God, the angels, Satan, nor demons ever called any emperor the "Son of God"; but they most certainly did for Yahshua (aka Jesus Christ)! The emperors died and stay dead; Jesus died and rose again. I say that alone settles the question: Will the real Son of God please stand (rise) up?!

Remember this book had a different Christology then the other books written before that book. Its not the end all to the definition. Its just an opinion by Hellenistic people far removed from Galilean Aramaic apocalyptic Judaism, and Jesus and Johns life.

You do know that the writers of the four Gospels strongly disagree with you on who Jesus is. When it comes to Jesus being the Son of God and not The God (Ton Theon), I see harmony in all four Gospels:

"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matthew 8:29)
"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;" (Mark 1:1)
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
"And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." (John 1:34)​

You see, Hebrew speaking sons of Yishrael also wrote these truths down on parchments in order to distinguish from the opinions of the skeptics then and today; because these disciples were eye-witnesses to these events. And (let us not forget) that Yahweh, God Almighty guided their lives to ensure that the historical records (The Holy Bible) survive to this very day for faith and trust.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yawn.
I wonder why people keep bringing up the trinity like it's the only way for Jesus to be God. Non-Trinitarian churches adhere to the idea of Jesus being God as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I hate to say this, but that "a" is throwing trinitarians' argument off. The Buddha was called a God because of His position as a teacher and the metaphorical language (just as in scripture; both eastern religions). It is a role that His disciples called the Buddha. They did not call Him a Creator.

Likewise, it was a role that Jesus associated Himself "with" the Father. The reason He and He alone can associate Himself with the Creator is because He is the spokesman of God. God gave Him permission to speak on His (the Creator's) behalf.

Any Holy person can be a god, according to how many stories back then were set up. Jesus never said He was The God; the Creator. If you can find where He says "I [Jesus] am The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Moses" (or however it's listed) in scripture, that would help a lot. Also, if you can find in scripture were it is not implied in analogy (as One) since Jesus and Christian's are One with each other, rather stated bluntly that Jesus said of Himself "I AM the Creator" that would help too.

Until then, I think Jehovah's Witness have a good point. Though, I don't believe it makes a difference whether or not He is God given the whole plan of salvation is from His Father. Why limit God based on whether Jesus is the Father or not?

Are you and other anti-trinitarians aware that the Bible in numerous places say Jehovah is A GOD? Does this make Him a lesser God, or one of many Gods?

Many JW's and anti-trinitarians say that since Jesus is called "a god" in John 1:1 of the NWT, that proves Jesus is a creature.
Really?

Jehovah's Witnesses fail to comprehend the fact that Jehovah is called also "A GOD" many times: Jehovah even calls himself A GOD! If Jesus is A GOD, so is the Father!

Gen. 16:13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

Deut. 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

1 Sam. 2:3 "Boast no more so very proudly, Do not let arrogance come out of your mouth; For the Lord is a God of knowledge, And with Him actions are weighed.

1 Sam. 17:46 that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

1 Chr. 17:24 "And let Thy name be established and magnified forever, saying, 'The Lord of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel; and the house of David Thy servant is established before Thee.

Neh. 9:17 "And they refused to listen, And did not remember Thy wondrous deeds which Thou hadst performed among them; So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt. But Thou art a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness; And Thou didst not forsake them.

Ps 5:4 For Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with Thee.

Ps 7:11 God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.

Ps. 68:20 God is to us a God of deliverances; And to God the Lord belong escapes from death.

Ps 86:15 But Thou, O Lord, art a God merciful and gracious, Slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness and truth.

Ps 89:7 A God greatly feared in the council of the holy ones, And awesome above all those who are around Him?

Isa. 30:18 Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.

Isa. 45:15 Truly, Thou art a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!

Jer. 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the Lord, "And not a God far off?

Jer. 51:56 For the destroyer is coming against her, against Babylon, And her mighty men will be captured, Their bows are shattered; For the Lord is a God of recompense, He will fully repay.

Dan. 2:28 "However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.

Mic 7:18 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.

Even the Watchtower's NWT calls Jehovah "A GOD."

"He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living..." Luke 20:38 (NWT)