Is it possible that Christianity is true, yet the Bible contains errors?

[Subduction Zone]

So, according to you, the Tanakh is not totally accurate? How do you explain that to practicing Jews?

I am pretty sure that the majority of Jews have not been literalists for quite some time. He will know much better than I do. But from my understanding they see the Torah and Tanakh as living works. Taking them too literally makes them "dead".

 

[Tomef]

I'm sure this has been asked before. But not since I joined. I'm mainly concerned with Biblical authority and/or inerrancy. What's the verdict so far as you can tell?

Is Christianity true because the Bible says so?

Or does the Bible say so because it describes the truth of Christianity?

One of the reasons for collecting the letters included in the NT, and writing the gospels, was to codify orthodox doctrines. That was an early attempt to have only one kind of Christianity. But quite a few different ideas had spread in the decades between Jesus’s death and the gospels being written, so you could say there were lots of different Christianities, and the NT cannon was an attempt to narrow that down to one official religion.

 

[jimb]

I am pretty sure that the majority of Jews have not been literalists for quite some time. He will know much better than I do. But from my understanding they see the Torah and Tanakh as living works. Taking them too literally makes them "dead".

"Taking them too literally makes them "dead" " is simply a subjective opinion. And a sad one.

The writer of Hebrews said "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Taking them too literally makes them "dead" " is simply a subjective opinion. And a sad one.

The writer of Hebrews said "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

Quote mining the Bible is an abuse of the Bible:

"There is no God" The Bible.

By the way, why are you assuming that Hebrews 4 12 refers to the Bible? It might refer to the Old Testament, but even that is inaccurate since the Old Testament is not the same as the all of the Hebrew holy books, Christians left some of them out, and may have even included a book or so that was not part of the Hebrew works considered by them to be "scripture". The Bible never tells you what "scripture" is. That quote cannot refer to any of the Gospels or later texts since they were not written at that time.

 

[jimb]

Quote mining the Bible is an abuse of the Bible:

"There is no God" The Bible.

By the way, why are you assuming that Hebrews 4 12 refers to the Bible? It might refer to the Old Testament, but even that is inaccurate since the Old Testament is not the same as the all of the Hebrew holy books, Christians left some of them out, and may have even included a book or so that was not part of the Hebrew works considered by them to be "scripture". The Bible never tells you what "scripture" is. That quote cannot refer to any of the Gospels or later texts since they were not written at that time.

Why don't you quote the Bible accurately instead of deliberately distorting what it says by choosing four words out of context? I believe that this is the section that you're partially quoting...

Fools say to themselves, “There is no God.”
They sin and commit evil deeds;
none of them does what is right.

The Lord looks down from heaven at the human race,
to see if there is anyone who is wise and seeks God.

Everyone rejects God;
they are all morally corrupt.
None of them does what is right,
not even one.

Psalm 14:1-3

Nowhere does the Bible say that there is no God in context. If you're trying to look clever, the result is just the opposite.

Regarding Hebrews 4:12, it says "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart."

If you ask people what is meant by "the word of God", you will invariably hear "the Bible". You're just playing with semantics (with obvious intent).

Finally, what about these verses?

Matthew 21:42, "Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? "

Matthew 22:29, "Jesus answered them, “You are deceived, because you don’t know the scriptures or the power of God."

Matthew 26:54, "How then would the scriptures that say it must happen this way be fulfilled?”

Matthew 26:56, "But this has happened so that the scriptures of the prophets would be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled."

Mark 12:10, "Have you not read this scripture: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone."

Mark 12:24, "Jesus said to them, “Aren’t you deceived for this reason, because you don’t know the scripturesor the power of God?

Mark 14:49, "Day after day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, yet you did not arrest me. But this has happened so that the scriptures would be fulfilled.”

Luke 4:21, "Then he began to tell them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled even as you heard it being read.”

Luke 22:37, "For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me is being fulfilled.”

Luke 24:27, "Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures"

Luke 24:32 "They said to each other, “Didn’t our hearts burn within us while he was speaking with us on the road, while he was explaining the scriptures to us?”

Luke 24:45, "Then he opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures"

John 2:22, "So after he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the saying that Jesus had spoken."

John 5:39, "You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me"

John 7:38, "let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’”

John 7:42, "Don’t the scriptures say that the Christ is a descendant of David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?”

John 10:35, "If those people to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ (and the scripture cannot be broken),"

John 13:18, “What I am saying does not refer to all of you. I know the ones I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture, ‘The one who eats my bread has turned against me.’

John 17:12, "When I was with them I kept them safe and watched over them in your name that you have given me. Not one of them was lost except the one destined for destruction, so that the scripture could be fulfilled."

John 19:24, "So the soldiers said to one another, “Let’s not tear it, but throw dice to see who will get it.” This took place to fulfill the scripture that says, “They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing they threw dice.” So the soldiers did these things.

John 19:28, "After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!”

John 19:36, "For these things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled, “Not a bone of his will be broken.”

John 19:37, "And again another scripture says, “They will look on the one whom they have pierced.”

John 20:9, "(For they did not yet understand the scripture that Jesus must rise from the dead."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's just in the Gospels! There are other instances, but these should be sufficient to thoroughly disprove your claims.

If you want to discuss this further, = >DO YOUR HOMEWORK <=

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why don't you quote the Bible accurately instead of deliberately distorting what it says by choosing four words out of context? I believe that this is the section that you're partially quoting...

Fools say to themselves, “There is no God.”
They sin and commit evil deeds;
none of them does what is right.

The Lord looks down from heaven at the human race,
to see if there is anyone who is wise and seeks God.

Everyone rejects God;
they are all morally corrupt.
None of them does what is right,
not even one.

Psalm 14:1-3

Nowhere does the Bible say that there is no God in context. If you're trying to look clever, the result is just the opposite.

Regarding Hebrews 4:12, it says "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart."

If you ask people what is meant by "the word of God", you will invariably hear "the Bible". You're just playing with semantics (with obvious intent).

Finally, what about these verses?

Matthew 21:42, "Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? "

Matthew 22:29, "Jesus answered them, “You are deceived, because you don’t know the scriptures or the power of God."

Matthew 26:54, "How then would the scriptures that say it must happen this way be fulfilled?”

Matthew 26:56, "But this has happened so that the scriptures of the prophets would be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled."

Mark 12:10, "Have you not read this scripture: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone."

Mark 12:24, "Jesus said to them, “Aren’t you deceived for this reason, because you don’t know the scripturesor the power of God?

Mark 14:49, "Day after day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, yet you did not arrest me. But this has happened so that the scriptures would be fulfilled.”

Luke 4:21, "Then he began to tell them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled even as you heard it being read.”

Luke 22:37, "For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me is being fulfilled.”

Luke 24:27, "Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures"

Luke 24:32 "They said to each other, “Didn’t our hearts burn within us while he was speaking with us on the road, while he was explaining the scriptures to us?”

Luke 24:45, "Then he opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures"

John 2:22, "So after he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the saying that Jesus had spoken."

John 5:39, "You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me"

John 7:38, "let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’”

John 7:42, "Don’t the scriptures say that the Christ is a descendant of David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?”

John 10:35, "If those people to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ (and the scripture cannot be broken),"

John 13:18, “What I am saying does not refer to all of you. I know the ones I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture, ‘The one who eats my bread has turned against me.’

John 17:12, "When I was with them I kept them safe and watched over them in your name that you have given me. Not one of them was lost except the one destined for destruction, so that the scripture could be fulfilled."

John 19:24, "So the soldiers said to one another, “Let’s not tear it, but throw dice to see who will get it.” This took place to fulfill the scripture that says, “They divided my garments among them, and for my clothing they threw dice.” So the soldiers did these things.

John 19:28, "After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!”

John 19:36, "For these things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled, “Not a bone of his will be broken.”

John 19:37, "And again another scripture says, “They will look on the one whom they have pierced.”

John 20:9, "(For they did not yet understand the scripture that Jesus must rise from the dead."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's just in the Gospels! There are other instances, but these should be sufficient to thoroughly disprove your claims.

If you want to discuss this further, = >DO YOUR HOMEWORK <=

None of those say what scripture is. You keep assuming that it is about the Christian Bible, but that did not exist at that time.

And you got the wrong verse. So I guess that there still is no god.

 

[1213]

Sorry, I missed your reply.

No problem.

Yes, the dates of birth are different by at least ten years between the account in Matthew, he had it during when Herod the Great was king of Judea and still alive, some people argue for a later date of death, but we know when he quit ruling Judea. That was in 4 BCE. So it would either have to be in 4 BCE or some time before that. In Luke the time of Jesus's birth is also well dated by the historical events associated with it. That was in 6 CE. Ten years later.

The problem with that is, I don't think you know those times correctly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No problem.

The problem with that is, I don't think you know those times correctly.

Then you are mistaken. It is historians that know those dates. Not me. Do not try to make this a personal attack on your part.Do you need links to what real historians that only want to know the truth say? You appear to want to believe a lie. Why do you always want to believe falsehoods?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

1) Apparently you skipped the word "if", as in "if, according to you..."
2) How else would you phrase "totally accurate"? 100% accurate? Completely accurate?

I know what I mean by "totally accurate", otherwise I wouldn't write it.

Very well. Let's talk about the Goliath pericope beginning at I Samuel 17:4. Quoting Wikipedia ...

The oldest manuscripts, namely the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel from the late 1st century BCE, the 1st-century CE historian Josephus, and the major Septuagint manuscripts, all give Goliath's height as "four cubits and a span" (6 feet 9 inches or 2.06 metres), whereas the Masoretic Text has "six cubits and a span" (9 feet 9 inches or 2.97 metres).[13][1] Many scholars have suggested that the smaller number grew in the course of transmission (only a few have suggested the reverse, that an original larger number was reduced), possibly when a scribe's eye was drawn to the number six in line 17:7.[14]​

And then there's the question of Elhanan ...

In 2 Samuel 21, verse 19, the Hebrew Bible tells how Goliath the Gittite was killed by "Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite". The fourth-century BC 1 Chronicle 20:5 explains the second Goliath by saying that Elhanan "slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath", constructing the name Lahmi from the last portion of the word "Bethlehemite" ("beit-ha’lahmi"), and the King James Bible adopted this into 2 Samuel 21:18–19, but the Hebrew text at Goliath's name makes no mention of the word "brother".[16] Most scholars dismiss the later 1 Chronicles 20:5 material as "an obvious harmonization" attempt.[17] [ibid]​

The questions to be resolved would include ...

• Do any of the available manuscripts accurately translate a hypothetical urtext?
• Did this urtext accurately convey some extant oral history?
• Did the battle introduced in chapter 17 occur?
• Was it to be resolved by a battle between Goliath and David?
• Was Goliath's height (a) four cubits and a span, (b) six cubits and a span, or (c) neither?
• Was Goliath killed by David or by Elhanan?

There are many other questions that could be asked but, simply from the above, it would seem the odds of any of the renderings being "100% correct" are astonishingly small. I assume you agree.

So, according to you, the Tanakh is not totally accurate? How do you explain that to practicing Jews?

That depends on many things, not the of which is what you mean by "practicing Jews." The fact is that Jews, often aided by an amazing body of diverse commentary, "argue" about textual matters all the time -- hence: "two Jews, three opinions." See, for example, TheTorah.com.

If you wrote more clearly then you would be more clearly understood.

Fair enough.

 

[jimb]

None of those say what scripture is. You keep assuming that it is about the Christian Bible, but that did not exist at that time.

And you got the wrong verse. So I guess that there still is no god.

Well, you're wrong. There is a God.

I'm putting you on "ignore". You just want to argue for arguments sake.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, you're wrong. There is a God.

I'm putting you on "ignore". You just want to argue for arguments sake.

No,, I would like to have a proper discussion. Putting someone on ignore because you have no answers to reasonable questions is not the wisest move either. By the way, my use of inappropriate quote mining was to show that you were doing the same thing. None of the more in depth quotes helped you. None of them told you what "scripture" is. You are just assuming that it refers to the Christian Bible.

 

[1213]

It is historians that know those dates.

Ok, I don't see any good reason to believe they know them correctly.

 

[Muffled]

For the myths of Genesis to be true God would have had to have lied endlessly, not just once. Even worse you should have a higher standard for God to follow, not a lower one.

I have no idea where yo are getting this from. I don't know of any lies by God in Genesis.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have no idea where yo are getting this from. I don't know of any lies by God in Genesis.

That is because you appear to strive to keep yourself ignorant of the sciences. How can you properly comment on them

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Well, specifically, “morning” had nothing to do with the Hebrew day.

If the Hebrew writer (probably Moses) meant a literal day, he would have specifically written, ‘from evening to evening.’

Besides, evening to morning is not 24 hours, is it?

Such wonderful logic you have...

1. how many mornings and evenings are there in one day? Is it not one of each?

2. When the earth was still empty and void, was it light or dark? Was it not dark? Therefore, as a process of logic, evening (or darkness) came first in the timeline in Moses description did it not?

 

[jimb]

No wonder we're instructed to celebrate Shabbat every seventh day.


Biblical literalism is a faith claim, not a fact (or, even, a "probable" fact).


Outstanding! Dr, Nahum Sarna, in a paper discussing the the efforts involved in producing the then new Bible translation of the Jewish Publication Society, wrote that it's most frequent footnote was [paraphrasing] "Heb. meaning uncertain." And yet here we've finally found an RF member who can instruct us on the denotations, connotation, and vernacular of millennia old Biblical Hebrew.

"There is more to this than meets the eye." The Bible was written in three different languages: ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. (Note: there were no vowels in the Hebrew).

Secondly, there are no original source documents. The best that exist are copies, all hand-written by fallible people. That is why the copies of source documents differ.

"Heb. meaning uncertain." says a lot about the art/science of Bible translation. There is no one-to-one correspondence between the ancient languages and English (including early 17th Century Englyshe). a) Words have different meanings in context. b) verb tenses are different in the source and destination languages, c) idioms are different in the source and destination languages. There is no such thing as a purely literal translation.

Committees of translators make their best estimates to determine what the source languages mean and how that meaning can best be conveyed to our 21st Century minds. I am grateful that we have so many excellent translations available! Personally I read the NIV, the NRSVue, and the NET. The latter, in its full form, has over 60,000(!) notes to aid in understanding the text (the probable meaning of words, the possible variations, what certain words meant to the original hearers, etc.)

 

[jimb]

Or perhaps you might focus more on reading comprehension.

It's hard for you to admit that you're not perfect, isn't it?

 

[jimb]

Very well. Let's talk about the Goliath pericope beginning at I Samuel 17:4. Quoting Wikipedia ...

The oldest manuscripts, namely the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel from the late 1st century BCE, the 1st-century CE historian Josephus, and the major Septuagint manuscripts, all give Goliath's height as "four cubits and a span" (6 feet 9 inches or 2.06 metres), whereas the Masoretic Text has "six cubits and a span" (9 feet 9 inches or 2.97 metres).[13][1] Many scholars have suggested that the smaller number grew in the course of transmission (only a few have suggested the reverse, that an original larger number was reduced), possibly when a scribe's eye was drawn to the number six in line 17:7.[14]​

And then there's the question of Elhanan ...

In 2 Samuel 21, verse 19, the Hebrew Bible tells how Goliath the Gittite was killed by "Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite". The fourth-century BC 1 Chronicle 20:5 explains the second Goliath by saying that Elhanan "slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath", constructing the name Lahmi from the last portion of the word "Bethlehemite" ("beit-ha’lahmi"), and the King James Bible adopted this into 2 Samuel 21:18–19, but the Hebrew text at Goliath's name makes no mention of the word "brother".[16] Most scholars dismiss the later 1 Chronicles 20:5 material as "an obvious harmonization" attempt.[17] [ibid]​

The questions to be resolved would include ...

• Do any of the available manuscripts accurately translate a hypothetical urtext?
• Did this urtext accurately convey some extant oral history?
• Did the battle introduced in chapter 17 occur?
• Was it to be resolved by a battle between Goliath and David?
• Was Goliath's height (a) four cubits and a span, (b) six cubits and a span, or (c) neither?
• Was Goliath killed by David or by Elhanan?

There are many other questions that could be asked but, simply from the above, it would seem the odds of any of the renderings being "100% correct" are astonishingly small. I assume you agree.


That depends on many things, not the of which is what you mean by "practicing Jews." The fact is that Jews, often aided by an amazing body of diverse commentary, "argue" about textual matters all the time -- hence: "two Jews, three opinions." See, for example, TheTorah.com.


Fair enough.

Read my post #376.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"There is more to this than meets the eye." The Bible was written in three different languages: ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. (Note: there were no vowels in the Hebrew).

Note:

• As with Hebrew, Aramaic has a couple of consonants that can serve as vowels.
• My Bible has no books originally written in Koine Greek.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Personally I read the NIV, the NRSVue, and the NET.

Two out of three is not bad. I rather like the heavily annotated NET.

Isaiah 7:14 NRSVue​

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son ...​

​

Isaiah 7:14 NIV​

Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin[b] will conceive and give birth to a son ...​

Leaving aside the virgin versus jungfrau issue, note the difference between "is with child" and "will conceive."