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Is Israel good for Jews around the world?

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Israel is surrounded by enemies who can trace their roots in the Middle East as a people for thousands of years. Those nations have survived internal and external conflicts for thousands of years and they continue to prevail and survive as a people.

The idea of the modern state of Israel was to provide a "home for the Jews".

The conflict between Israel and all other countries in the region has lasted since the foundation of the State of Israel until the present. The neighbors are Muslim countries. Islam is the second largest religion in the world, and the fastest growing.

A large percentage of Muslims around the world view Israel as hostile to Muslims, and many people in the west are deeply divided regarding Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

Does Israel provide a safe heaven for Jews in Israel or a death trap in the long run?

Does Israel provide any benefit to Jews around the world, or does it make them a target for those who feel wronged by Israel?
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Is this a case of "hot potato" or of "don't ask, don't tell"?

Israel and its relationship with the Middle East has arguably shaped US foreign policy more than any other single factor since Israel's foundation.

This is an important issue in my opinion, and I would like to know your thoughts in the matter.
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
Is this a case of "hot potato" or of "don't ask, don't tell"?

Israel and its relationship with the Middle East has arguably shaped US foreign policy more than any other single factor since Israel's foundation.

This is an important issue in my opinion, and I would like to know your thoughts in the matter.
No one has courage to debate or say the truth as they scare of a very sharp weapon is called Anti-Semitism !! ( mouths are full of thick foams made in ....... ).
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I believe the first reply is at the same unfortunate level of the OP. Welcome to the kindergarten of society and politics. Please take notes.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Just when I was starting to hope that one Israel-bashing anti-Semitic thread would just wither up and die a quiet death....

Now we can look forward to more pages of crass slanders, conspiracy theories, and slurs, until some Mod decides it's all gotten out of hand and closes the thread for review....

That never gets predictable....
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
Is this a case of "hot potato" or of "don't ask, don't tell"?

Israel and its relationship with the Middle East has arguably shaped US foreign policy more than any other single factor since Israel's foundation.

This is an important issue in my opinion, and I would like to know your thoughts in the matter.
Did you believe me now Godwilling when I said :((No one has courage to debate or say the truth as they scare of a very sharp weapon is called Anti-Semitism !! ( mouths are full of thick foams made in ....... ). ))
Already three missiles have launched till now and more are comonig in the way !! ( you should believe me and trust my words in future as you have experienced and saw by your own eyes these sharp weapons "WMD" )..God saves you from them.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Just when I was starting to hope that one Israel-bashing anti-Semitic thread would just wither up and die a quiet death....

Now we can look forward to more pages of crass slanders, conspiracy theories, and slurs, until some Mod decides it's all gotten out of hand and closes the thread for review....

That never gets predictable....
I am puzzled. How does a comment made by someone who is clearly a supporter of Jewish people and a friend of many, and who shares the same concerns about Israel expressed by most of my Jews friends, anti-Semitic.

Isn't that a defeatist and perhaps paranoid attitude?

The questions I ask are as a result of my Jews friends, colleagues, and acquaintances expressed concerns.

I asked the question because most of my Jewish friends are of a certain demographic, and I am well aware that Jewish people, like most other people, are not monolithic in their thinking.


I asked the question because I would like your opinion. I don't have any preconceived ideas, and your opinion will not tarnish my knowledge of, and feelings about Jewish people. It will simply help me form an opinion of your view of the world.

Please help me understand how I have offended you and how my question is anti-Semitic. If I have offended you, I shall apologize. I do not post to offend, to indoctrinate, or to proselytize. I post to learn, only to learn.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I am puzzled. How does a comment made by someone who is clearly a supporter of Jewish people and a friend of many, and who shares the same concerns about Israel expressed by most of my Jews friends, anti-Semitic.

Isn't that a defeatist and perhaps paranoid attitude?

The questions I ask are as a result of my Jews friends, colleagues, and acquaintances expressed concerns.

I asked the question because most of my Jewish friends are of a certain demographic, and I am well aware that Jewish people, like most other people, are not monolithic in their thinking.


I asked the question because I would like your opinion. I don't have any preconceived ideas, and your opinion will not tarnish my knowledge of, and feelings about Jewish people. It will simply help me form an opinion of your view of the world.

Please help me understand how I have offended you and how my question is anti-Semitic. If I have offended you, I shall apologize. I do not post to offend, to indoctrinate, or to proselytize. I post to learn, only to learn.

Do forgive my skepticism.

You started a thread wherein you hypothesized that Judaism was an invention of the Babylonians, wherein you steadfastly ignored both Jewish history and scholarship in favor of deeply insulting theories. You began a thread with the false statement that Judaism claims it is "the one true religion of God," and steadfastly ignored posts to the effect that you were in error. You began an anti-circumcision thread that specifically targeted circumcision for religious reasons. In an earlier thread you began wherein you made the claim that all practitioners of religion see their own faiths as absolute universal truth and all others as false, when Jews posted to the contrary about Judaism, you replied with dismissal and claims that Jewish scripture specifically upheld your view-- though you showed no expertise or facility with either Jewish text and language, or Jewish exegetical tradition to support that claim. In all these threads, and in others, you have baited Jews with deliberate misrepresentations of the concept of chosenness, with portrayals (both veiled and direct) of Judaism as racist, supremacist, and inauthentic. All of this is not even to mention numerous threads you have begun and posted in to bait Christians and Muslims and other religious practitioners. I am not sure I have ever seen a post by you in regard to religion that was even respectful, let alone expressive of support or approbation.

And with all this at the back, you began a thread postulating Israel not as a home for the Jewish People but as a death trap: obliquely suggesting that the better course of action would be to simply withdraw from the area.

Would you have us believe that you would just as likely have posted a thread asking whether Muslims around the world were well served by using the Palestinians as hapless pawns against Israel, or whether Islam is well served by letting this conflict over a minute speck of Jewish land amidst a sea of Muslim nations degenerate into fodder for terrorist groups and other violent radicals?

Would you have us believe that you would just as likely have posted a thread noting the very difficulties you mentioned in your OP here, and then applauding the dedication of the Jewish People in not being driven out of their ancestral homeland after eighteen hundred years of waiting to get back there?

Would you have us believe, even, that you would just as likely have posted a thread noting the very difficulties you mentioned in your OP here, and saying something to the effect of, "I see that the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel is something of deep importance to you. To me, it seems as though this comes at a great price. Can you help me to understand why you feel that this price is worthwhile?"

I doubt it. Your aim-- as expressed by your consistent actions on this forum-- does not appear to be to educate yourself or to express support or validation of others: it appears to be to bait, to play games, to make unfounded accusations, to inflame dispute and baseless hatreds; and in the case of Judaism, to portray Jewish text, Jewish history, Jewish tradition, Jewish culture, Jewish people in the fashion you clearly wish to see them, rather than as they are or as they have consistently tried to present themselves. You claim to have Jewish friends, but (presuming you are being truthful about having Jewish friends at all) if you speak to them as you speak to us here, they must either be deaf or self-loathing.

If this particular thread was, indeed, your first legitimate attempt to ask a respectful question, with the intent of actually listening to and respecting answers given, then it is a shame, because it seems to me that you have no one but yourself to blame for the presumptions of malignancy with which we Jewish posters have greeted this thread.

Respect breeds respect. A presumption of benevolence, or even innocence, is based on prior positive behavior (or at least lack of prior negative behavior). You have not respected us. You have not treated our faith, our text, our history, or our culture with dignity. Why ought we now to believe you are our supporter and ally?
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Do forgive my skepticism.

You started a thread wherein you hypothesized that Judaism was an invention of the Babylonians, wherein you steadfastly ignored both Jewish history and scholarship in favor of deeply insulting theories. You began a thread with the false statement that Judaism claims it is "the one true religion of God," and steadfastly ignored posts to the effect that you were in error. You began an anti-circumcision thread that specifically targeted circumcision for religious reasons. In an earlier thread you began wherein you made the claim that all practitioners of religion see their own faiths as absolute universal truth and all others as false, when Jews posted to the contrary about Judaism, you replied with dismissal and claims that Jewish scripture specifically upheld your view-- though you showed no expertise or facility with either Jewish text and language, or Jewish exegetical tradition to support that claim. In all these threads, and in others, you have baited Jews with deliberate misrepresentations of the concept of chosenness, with portrayals (both veiled and direct) of Judaism as racist, supremacist, and inauthentic. All of this is not even to mention numerous threads you have begun and posted in to bait Christians and Muslims and other religious practitioners. I am not sure I have ever seen a post by you in regard to religion that was even respectful, let alone expressive of support or approbation.

And with all this at the back, you began a thread postulating Israel not as a home for the Jewish People but as a death trap: obliquely suggesting that the better course of action would be to simply withdraw from the area.

Would you have us believe that you would just as likely have posted a thread asking whether Muslims around the world were well served by using the Palestinians as hapless pawns against Israel, or whether Islam is well served by letting this conflict over a minute speck of Jewish land amidst a sea of Muslim nations degenerate into fodder for terrorist groups and other violent radicals?

Would you have us believe that you would just as likely have posted a thread noting the very difficulties you mentioned in your OP here, and then applauding the dedication of the Jewish People in not being driven out of their ancestral homeland after eighteen hundred years of waiting to get back there?

Would you have us believe, even, that you would just as likely have posted a thread noting the very difficulties you mentioned in your OP here, and saying something to the effect of, "I see that the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel is something of deep importance to you. To me, it seems as though this comes at a great price. Can you help me to understand why you feel that this price is worthwhile?"

I doubt it. Your aim-- as expressed by your consistent actions on this forum-- does not appear to be to educate yourself or to express support or validation of others: it appears to be to bait, to play games, to make unfounded accusations, to inflame dispute and baseless hatreds; and in the case of Judaism, to portray Jewish text, Jewish history, Jewish tradition, Jewish culture, Jewish people in the fashion you clearly wish to see them, rather than as they are or as they have consistently tried to present themselves. You claim to have Jewish friends, but (presuming you are being truthful about having Jewish friends at all) if you speak to them as you speak to us here, they must either be deaf or self-loathing.

If this particular thread was, indeed, your first legitimate attempt to ask a respectful question, with the intent of actually listening to and respecting answers given, then it is a shame, because it seems to me that you have no one but yourself to blame for the presumptions of malignancy with which we Jewish posters have greeted this thread.

Respect breeds respect. A presumption of benevolence, or even innocence, is based on prior positive behavior (or at least lack of prior negative behavior). You have not respected us. You have not treated our faith, our text, our history, or our culture with dignity. Why ought we now to believe you are our supporter and ally?

Point taken. My intentions are not to bait and most definitely not anti-Semitic. I apologize for how I must have come across, given your response. My intention was to ask thought provoking questions as I understood/understand them.

My Jewish friends are very critical of Israel and what I have articulated are their expressed thoughts as I mentioned previously. And as I mentioned previously my inquiry is motivated by my understanding that they represent a specific demographic of Jewish people and not all Jewish people.

I would never speak to my friends disrespectfully. They can be self-deprecating, but that does not give me the right or the desire to use that self-deprecation against them. My friends are wonderful, influencial people who use their influence for what I consider to be wonderful aims.

They have always been very inclusive with me, generous with their knowledge and resources, and I reciprocate in kind.

You pointed out that I "baited" Christians and Muslims alike. Even if that were the case, that would be a strong indication that I do not discriminate.

Furthermore, my knowledge of ancient Judaism stems mostly from my days as a fundamental Christian and the interpretation of the Bible that I was "fed". I have come to learn of the many errors and lies, and it appears that I have more to shed.

My ignorance, if it is determine that I am, is not for lack of trying to learn directly from the sources, even if my style appears more hostile than genuine.

My using the word "depth trap" was not meant to be disrespectful but to convey my fear. Human nature is what it is, and that includes empire building when the opportunity presents itself. I fear that Israel would be all alone and vulnerable when the US loses it political and military dominance in the world.

The US dominance will cease to exist as that of all previous empires has. It is just a matter of time. My question has to do with my concern for a people and not sentiments against a people.

It is understandable that your sentiments about it would be much more sensitive than mine, but perhaps that may leave me with a clearer perspective, one that I have not yet fully developed because I assume that I do not know all of the facts.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Nietzsche memorably observed that the first refuge of an anti-Semite is beginning apologetically by mentioning 'his many Jewish friends'.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Nietzsche memorably observed that the first refuge of an anti-Semite is beginning apologetically by mentioning 'his many Jewish friends'.
I don't blame you for feeling some paranoia, but can you show me where I have given you any indication that I am anti-Semitic?

I consider friends those that are willing to challenge my thoughts and preconceptions. The ones that simply act as sounding boards are not friends. Those have no commitment to me so they do not risk having to challenge my preconceived notions.

If you dismiss as anti-Semitic anyone who challenges your beliefs because you are Jewish, you will likely surround yourself with more groupies than friends.

I know I am not anti-Semitic, or anti anything for that matter, and you are free to stick steadfastly to your beliefs.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Lets see what we had so far.

You started a thread that Judaism was invented by the Babylonians: Check.
You started a thread singling out the supposed supremacy of Judaism: Check.
You started an anti circumcision thread: Check.
You started a thread with a clear purpose to provoke Jews on the issue of the State of Israel: Check.

You know. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, but you obviously have a slight obsession with getting a negative reaction from Jews. Now you have it, don't expect any favours from us and don't whine when you got your reaction.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Lets see what we had so far.

You started a thread that Judaism was invented by the Babylonians: Check.

That is a religious argument and most of the Jews that I know are secular Jews. Furthermore, the ones that are not secular attend to their temples (not synagogue)as a socio/cultural activity. None of those Jews would even hesitate to say to me, "who cares who invented it. It's just our own mythology like the Greeks had theirs, the Christians have theirs".

So, I pose the question, and you may choose to answer it however you see fit.

You started a thread singling out the supposed supremacy of Judaism: Check.
That is part of the religious doctrine I learned as a fundamental Christian. They add that the people of Israel broke their covenant with God and that is why God had to send his son to be killed.

I have also heard some Jews say that the Jews continue to be the chosen people of God. I did not invent the stuff. I asked if you believe that as well.

You started an anti circumcision thread: Check.
The majority of males circumcised in North America are not Jewish. Not all Jewish males are circumcised, although I understand that the majority are. So, I am not sure why you want to make circumcision an exclusively defining feature of Judaism. I do not.



You started a thread with a clear purpose to provoke Jews on the issue of the State of Israel: Check.
That is your opinion. I started a post wanting to know your views on an issue which many of the Jewish people I know appear to share a concern.

You know. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, but you obviously have a slight obsession with getting a negative reaction from Jews. Now you have it, don't expect any favours from us and don't whine when you got your reaction.
I will take your, "I usually give people the benefit of the doubt" statement for what it is. I don't have any obsession with getting a negative reaction from anybody, although I appear to be getting it from you.

I did not ask for any favours. I offered you an opportunity to reply to my questions and you have chosen to reply as you have. I don't think that what I have stated could be considered "whining". People that mean to offend, as Ann Coulter does for example, are happy when they get a negative reaction from those they offend.

People that offend when it is not their intention, swallow their pride and apologize.

Even if my intentions were not to offend, I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else in this or any other post.

I have learned that I must be more sensitive with my questions and articulate my questions in a more neutral manner, given that the issues I question about are deep routed beliefs.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Point taken. My intentions are not to bait and most definitely not anti-Semitic. I apologize for how I must have come across, given your response....

I would very much like to believe that you are uninterested in baiting us, and that your agenda is not anti-Semitic.

I am simply not sure that what you say here chimes with what you have said and how you have acted elsewhere. Part of what concerns me is that on several occasions, when Jewish posters here-- myself included-- have offered opposing Jewish views to what you have posted concerning Judaism or Jewish text or Jewish thought, you have either ignored it or attempted to outright refute it, or mocked it.

If your actions reflect ignorance about Judaism, rather than antipathy, I would want to know why your reactions do not seem to have been those of one who seeks to learn more about something about which he is unlearned, or one who is respectful about inquiries to a tradition with which he is unfamiliar. And, though you point out that baiting Christians and Muslims as well as Jews indicates that you do not discriminate, I am really not sure that this is much of a defense-- at least, not one that really helps you out.

I appreciate that you have apologized. I see that, and I am not willing to discount it out of hand. And in the spirit of that apology, I will respond to what I believe you were originally trying to ask. But I am still more than a little skeptical and cautious: I really hope that what has appeared to be a legitimate, if egregious, error of ignorance addressed with refreshing humility does not turn out to be a further gambit to draw out opportunities for trashing Judaism and/or Israel.

First of all, prior to addressing the inquiry itself, I think it is worth noting that, gauging from your descriptions of your friends, the Jews you seem to have met are highly secular and very uneducated about their own traditons, history, and culture. That is not meant to be a statement denoting contempt, only fact-- unfortunately, such ignorance is all too common in the American Jewish community today. But it does mean that you should take their information on Judaism, and also Israel, with a large grain of salt.

In any case, I think you need to understand that Israel will always be "worth it" to the Jewish People. It's our homeland. We belong there as much as the French belong in France, or the Japanese in Japan; and we can no more leave there and make another country for ourselves elsewhere (even were there land for such an endeavor) than the Italians could leave Italy to move to Canada, or than the Norwegians could abandon Norway for Chile.

I am not sure I could describe to you what it's like to be a Jew and to come to Israel. I lived there for a year, and I think of going back all the time. To live in a place where life follows the Jewish calendar. Where the language of the street and the music and the classrooms and the public arenas is our own language. Where I never felt judged or gawked at for wearing a kippah; where I could count on there being kosher food wherever I went; where cultural references included not only modern Western culture but the literature and thought of my own people. To walk where our deepest roots of history are: you go to Israel and you feel the connection to it in your bones. It's not like anywhere else, for a Jew. There's no understating it. And those who dismiss it either haven't been there; or they are so radically, deeply cut off from what it means to be a Jew that they can't perceive what the rest of us do.

It is certainly true that Israel has been more at odds with its neighbors than not for most of its history thus far-- more turmoil and bloodshed than many countries would stand for today, that is certain. And we know all too painfully what sacrifice each young Israeli makes with their years in the army-- and those families whose children don't return from their armed service.

And it's also true that Israel is not without its problems. It has serious civil rights problems with some of its citizens (especially its Arab citizens) facing varying degrees of discrimination; it has some problems with how religion interacts with civil society; it has problems of bureaucratic and political corruption; and it has other issues as well. Most Jews who have been educated on the issues agree that it is unacceptable for the Jewish State not to face these problems and rectify them. But every nation has its problems, especially nations formed less than a hundred years ago; and Israel also has many areas in which it does very well, which often tend to be overlooked in the Western world. Its citizens, on the average, enjoy a very high quality of life; it has thriving industries-- especially technology, Israeli inventors and scientists being responsible for many innovations we all benefit from; it has fantastic educational opportunities and a high literacy rate; and (troubled though its politics be) it is a democracy, in an area almost entirely devoid of other democracies.

But that the endeavor of the Jewish State is "worth it" to us is of no question. Yet if it were not the Jewish State, and rather some other country in similar circumstances, I would still think it sound policy for the US to back it. It is democratic-- in fact, many minorities, like women and GLBTs, have rights in Israel that they don't enjoy in any other country in the Middle East or North Africa or many other nations in the world. It has a healthy relationship of trade, tourism, and strategic defense with the US. And Israel, proportionally, sends out more international humanitarian aid missions than almost any other country.

Give it time. Israel's been a country for sixty-four years. America hasn't come close to solving all its problems, and it's had two hundred thirty-six years. Not to mention other, even older countries.
 
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Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
I appreciate that you have apologized. I see that, and I am not willing to discount it out of hand. And in the spirit of that apology, I will respond to what I believe you were originally trying to ask. But I am still more than a little skeptical and cautious: I really hope that what has appeared to be a legitimate, if egregious, error of ignorance addressed with refreshing humility does not turn out to be a further gambit to draw out opportunities for trashing Judaism and/or Israel.

Thank you for accepting my apology. My style of inquiry intended to provoke thought and responses. Unfortunately, it appears to have offended more than one person, and I have learned a valuable lesson on what not to do.

First of all, prior to addressing the inquiry itself, I think it is worth noting that, gauging from your descriptions of your friends, the Jews you seem to have met are highly secular and very uneducated about their own traditons, history, and culture. That is not meant to be a statement denoting contempt, only fact-- unfortunately, such ignorance is all too common in the American Jewish community today. But it does mean that you should take their information on Judaism, and also Israel, with a large grain of salt.

Please don't say that. I told you they are my friends, they are highly educated individuals, and prominent members of society who advocate for the rights of citizens, and especially citizens of the Jewish community. They are secular because many of them do not believe in God or are agnostic, and not because they are ignorant. Ignorant would be the last word you would think of using regarding these Jews. Furthermore, most of them religiously celebrate every Jews holiday, although I don't know one that observes the Sabbath. For them, Judaism is a cultural tradition which they observe and defend even if many of them do not believe in God.

In any case, I think you need to understand that Israel will always be "worth it" to the Jewish People. It's our homeland. We belong there as much as the French belong in France, or the Japanese in Japan; and we can no more leave there and make another country for ourselves elsewhere (even were there land for such an endeavor) than the Italians could leave Italy to move to Canada, or than the Norwegians could abandon Norway for Chile.
I respect your view, but you know that not all Jews have the same view, and having different views does not make them less Jewish. Their view may make them less Zionist and less religious, but not less Jewish.

I am not sure I could describe to you what it's like to be a Jew and to come to Israel. I lived there for a year, and I think of going back all the time. To live in a place where life follows the Jewish calendar. Where the language of the street and the music and the classrooms and the public arenas is our own language. Where I never felt judged or gawked at for wearing a kippah; where I could count on there being kosher food wherever I went; where cultural references included not only modern Western culture but the literature and thought of my own people. To walk where our deepest roots of history are: you go to Israel and you feel the connection to it in your bones. It's not like anywhere else, for a Jew. There's no understating it. And those who dismiss it either haven't been there; or they are so radically, deeply cut off from what it means to be a Jew that they can't perceive what the rest of us do.
My friends wear kippahs at weddings, funerals, and religious celebrations and I have on several occasions when invited, and no one has ever ridiculed any of us, and that thought does not even enter our minds. I am sorry if you have those issues where you live, but the place where we live has a very strong and prominent Jewish presence and Judaism here is non-issue, as Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, and others are also non-issues. There are many synagogues, temples, Jewish community centers and Hebrew Academies.

It is certainly true that Israel has been more at odds with its neighbors than not for most of its history thus far-- more turmoil and bloodshed than many countries would stand for today, that is certain. And we know all too painfully what sacrifice each young Israeli makes with their years in the army-- and those families whose children don't return from their armed service.

And it's also true that Israel is not without its problems. It has serious civil rights problems with some of its citizens (especially its Arab citizens) facing varying degrees of discrimination; it has some problems with how religion interacts with civil society; it has problems of bureaucratic and political corruption; and it has other issues as well. Most Jews who have been educated on the issues agree that it is unacceptable for the Jewish State not to face these problems and rectify them. But every nation has its problems, especially nations formed less than a hundred years ago; and Israel also has many areas in which it does very well, which often tend to be overlooked in the Western world. Its citizens, on the average, enjoy a very high quality of life; it has thriving industries-- especially technology, Israeli inventors and scientists being responsible for many innovations we all benefit from; it has fantastic educational opportunities and a high literacy rate; and (troubled though its politics be) it is a democracy, in an area almost entirely devoid of other democracies.

But that the endeavor of the Jewish State is "worth it" to us is of no question. Yet if it were not the Jewish State, and rather some other country in similar circumstances, I would still think it sound policy for the US to back it. It is democratic-- in fact, many minorities, like women and GLBTs, have rights in Israel that they don't enjoy in any other country in the Middle East or North Africa or many other nations in the world. It has a healthy relationship of trade, tourism, and strategic defense with the US. And Israel, proportionally, sends out more international humanitarian aid missions than almost any other country.

Give it time. Israel's been a country for sixty-four years. America hasn't come close to solving all its problems, and it's had two hundred thirty-six years. Not to mention other, even older countries.
My concern is not for the inner functions of the country. I have no criticism of it because I agree with you that it is a very young democracy, which in addition is in a constant state of war.

My concern is for the Jewish people. I was a military man, and I see Israel's foreign policy as unsustainable and as a recipe for disaster in the long run from a military standpoint. Furthermore, its foreign policy alienates many Jewish people and fuels the fires of anti-Semites.

The children of several Jewish people I know have served in Israel, and others say that the practice is madness. Some of the ones who oppose the practice are members of the New Israel Fund.

Aside from your sentiments about a home for the Jews, which I respect, do you have any concerns about the long term prognosis on the country?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Please don't say that. I told you they are my friends, they are highly educated individuals, and prominent members of society who advocate for the rights of citizens, and especially citizens of the Jewish community. They are secular because many of them do not believe in God or are agnostic, and not because they are ignorant. Ignorant would be the last word you would think of using regarding these Jews. Furthermore, most of them religiously celebrate every Jews holiday, although I don't know one that observes the Sabbath. For them, Judaism is a cultural tradition which they observe and defend even if many of them do not believe in God.

Again, I don't in any way mean to suggest or express contempt or derision for your friends. I am not saying that they are bad people, nor am I saying that they are ignorant in general, or stupid people. But it seems clear that they lack Jewish education-- which again, makes them number among many American Jews, and some not from America as well. There is a serious problem of undereducation in the Jewish community today, so it's not like I am suggesting they are themselves at fault.

Do your friends speak Hebrew? Have they really learned Torah? Have they studied Talmud or Midrash or Jewish thought? Whether they keep the commandments or not, do they know how to do so, and do they have clearly reasoned objections as to the ones they don't keep (for example, you don't have a single Jewish friend who keeps the Sabbath-- not only the most important of all Jewish holidays, but one of the most central duties/privileges/rituals of Judaism: why don't they do so? What is their reasoning and justification for not observing the Sabbath? Have they ever observed it? Do they really understand what observing it means?) Have they been to Israel? Lived there? Do they really know Jewish history? Are they well read in the literature of our people?

If so, then I am surprised, and I withdraw my presumption. But I would be very surprised indeed. Undereducation is terribly rampant in our Jewish society today, and I have met very, very few secular Jews who are truly Jewishly literate and have made their decisions with full comprehension of the tradition and our history. They do exist, but they are extremely rare. And the vast majority of secular Jews-- especially those who tend to express anti-Israel opinions-- tend not to be adequately Jewishly educated. Like I said, there are always the exceptions; but they are rare, I find.

I respect your view, but you know that not all Jews have the same view, and having different views does not make them less Jewish. Their view may make them less Zionist and less religious, but not less Jewish.

I am not suggesting it makes them less Jewish. I would never suggest such a thing. As I said before, I am not suggesting it makes them bad or stupid people, either. I am merely suggesting that it seems likely that their opinions arise from being inadequately Jewishly informed.

If they are, in fact, adequately Jewishly informed, and do in fact have educated and nuanced reasons behind their political beliefs, then yes, their statements are a part of the spectrum of Jewish opinions, albeit a fairly small part.

My friends wear kippahs at weddings, funerals, and religious celebrations and I have on several occasions when invited, and no one has ever ridiculed any of us, and that thought does not even enter our minds. I am sorry if you have those issues where you live, but the place where we live has a very strong and prominent Jewish presence and Judaism here is non-issue, as Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, and others are also non-issues. There are many synagogues, temples, Jewish community centers and Hebrew Academies.

I have mostly lived in pretty cosmopolitan and Jewishly rich areas as well, but even in those places, I have occasionally encountered anti-Semitism, or veiled unfriendliness which seems anti-Semitically motivated. I have actually met relatively few Jews who have never at all encountered any anti-Semitism. If you really have so little anti-Semitism in your area that your friends have never encountered any, they are very fortunate indeed, but hopefully they are equally aware that their experience is very much out of the ordinary.

I have lived in one of the greatest Jewish communities in America-- the Pico-Robertson neighborhood of Los Angeles, and I now live right outside one of the other such communities: Skokie, Illinois; I have many friends who have lived in these communities and in the communities in New York, and other major communities here and abroad: the largest, most diverse, safest Jewish communities in the world. And every one I have met who has been to Israel still says that it is unlike anything they've ever known before-- that they never thought they'd had a feeling of unease or unwelcome until they came to Israel and felt what it was like to really feel at home.

My concern is for the Jewish people. I was a military man, and I see Israel's foreign policy as unsustainable and as a recipe for disaster in the long run from a military standpoint. Furthermore, its foreign policy alienates many Jewish people and fuels the fires of anti-Semites.

Anti-Semites need nothing from the Jews to fuel their fires: those fires would burn regardless of what Israel did or did not do.

And while I still maintain that many Jews who claim "alienation" from Israel because of "foreign policy" are simply uneducated in the matter, as for those who are not uneducated in the matter...sometimes Jews disagree. Sometimes outrage at some very specific legitimate issues-- such as the need to curb unauthorized small settlements in the West Bank, and to scale back certain authorized developments there also-- are decontextualized or misunderstood or otherwise used as generalizations to cover other issues that require different, more cautious or aggressive tactics. Wars are never popular, and in the very admirable search for peace, some people sometimes are blinded by their good intentions to the necessities of defense. And quite often, issues are mixed and muddled: there are indeed a number of serious public issues on which the Israeli government and perhaps Israeli society deserves criticism, and these are often erroneously merged with decisions regarding Israeli security.

Ultimately, the real issue here is that the Palestinian problem is not going to be solved by Israel giving up and running away, or by Israel pretending that everything will work out okay if they can just decide to trust terrorists. Israel does need to be prepared to negotiate in good faith with responsible partners, and some difficult choices need to be made about the realities of establishment of a Palestinian State in the West Bank (and Gaza, if Hamas ever cedes power, or relinquishes its anti-Israel agenda). But a lot of work in solving this issue needs to happen on the Palestinian side. The major impediment to peace doesn't come from Israel. It comes from the territories, and those who back radical groups, terrorist groups, and even to some degree from those governments who are trying to use the Palestinian authorities and people as pawns in the regional political game.

And while a responsible Jewish State needs to be prepared to negotiate and to make hard choices in the interests of peace, it also needs to be strong and not give in to blackmail by terrorism.

The children of several Jewish people I know have served in Israel, and others say that the practice is madness. Some of the ones who oppose the practice are members of the New Israel Fund.

NIF aren't bad folks. I'm moderately friendly with Daniel Sokatch, their CEO, and he's a good guy. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he's good people. And I can tell you, he sure would never say he is an anti-Zionist. It's true that NIF has given money to some organizations that then turned around and did some pretty treacherously anti-Israel stuff; but I'm not convinced that NIF knew anything about that. And it's also true that NIF has advocated some things I'm not sure all its own members agreed with. But it also does a lot of good work with Israeli civil rights causes, and religious pluralism in Israel.

Very left-wing organizations can attract some bitter people, the same as very right-wing organizations. Doesn't have to taint the whole organization.

Aside from your sentiments about a home for the Jews, which I respect, do you have any concerns about the long term prognosis on the country?

In a non-religious sense, I have faith in Israel. Frankly, I am far more concerned about internal civil rights issues and religious pluralism issues than with foreign policy issues: if we can get the former under control, the latter will get figured out sooner or later.
 
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