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Is Healthcare a "right" and should it have limits on how much is consumed and by whom?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You said access. Access does not require affordability.
Affordability is very strongly tied to access. And resorting to the ER is not proper healthcare, and it's downright abusive and exploitative towards both ER facilities and those who work in them, and takes away time and resources from those having and actual emergency, the intention and purpose of having and emergency room to begin with. And how can you access something if you just simply cannot afford it?
Standard is 2 weeks in even the worst jobs.
There is no federal standard or law, not unless you meet certain requirements to qualify for FMLA leave.
So in your mind... forever. No limit?
No. If it's a chronic condition with poor prognosis that is why we have disability income programs (if they pay enough or not is another issue). But we do have laws granting extended medical leave and protecting the jobs of those who need medical leave.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
So, you consider...

As I said in the above post, you really need to get educated before you comment.​

... as a personal insulting attack?

Yes. Because what you really mean is 'you need to learn to agree with me before you comment."
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Affordability is very strongly tied to access.


Nope.

And resorting to the ER is not proper healthcare, and it's downright abusive and exploitative towards both ER facilities and those who work in them, and takes away time and resources from those having and actual emergency, the intention and purpose of having and emergency room to begin with.

Which is an ER procedure issue.

And how can you access something if you just simply cannot afford it?

Access does not mean one can get what they want when they want it.


There is no federal standard or law, not unless you meet certain requirements to qualify for FMLA leave.

I never said it was a law just that it is a standard.


No. If it's a chronic condition with poor prognosis that is why we have disability income programs (if they pay enough or not is another issue). But we do have laws granting extended medical leave and protecting the jobs of those who need medical leave.

If those laws go into half year or years it is an unjust law.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I would think eating would be more of a "right" than health care. Maybe we should force the farmers to put food on our tables for free.

Universal health care is not free.
It's paid for through taxes.
Everyone pays for it.

It's in fact no different then simple insurance.
You pay a fee every month and the insurance company then takes care of your bills if and when you have to invoke your insurance.

The only difference between government run and private run, is that the government doesn't act as a middle man that needs to make a ridiculous profit to appease its shareholders and by extentions does NOT have any incentive to not pay your bills when you need to invoke the insurance.

Ask yourself why the US is pretty much the only "first world" country where breaking your leg can literally bankrupt you.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It isn't a right as you do not have a right to other peope's labour.

The police force, the fire department, road maintenance,.... all things accomplished to "other people's labour".

So when's the last time the police send you a bill to come to your house and arrest a burgler?
Or when's the last time the fire department send you a bill to come to your house and extinguish a fire and rescue your kids from a burning building?

You should think things through before you write them down.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Universal health care is not free.
It's paid for through taxes.
Everyone pays for it.

It's in fact no different then simple insurance.
You pay a fee every month and the insurance company then takes care of your bills if and when you have to invoke your insurance.

The only difference between government run and private run, is that the government doesn't act as a middle man that needs to make a ridiculous profit to appease its shareholders and by extentions does NOT have any incentive to not pay your bills when you need to invoke the insurance.

Ask yourself why the US is pretty much the only "first world" country where breaking your leg can literally bankrupt you.

Kinda like they run the VA. That's certainly a model of efficiency.

The police force, the fire department, road maintenance,.... all things accomplished to "other people's labour".

So when's the last time the police send you a bill to come to your house and arrest a burgler?
Or when's the last time the fire department send you a bill to come to your house and extinguish a fire and rescue your kids from a burning building?

You should think things through before you write them down.

The volunteer rescue squads are now charging for ambulance rides to the hospital. After receiving the bill, I'm taking Uber if I have to go...
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member

Irrelevant as it is someone's work aka labour.


So is a cop who goes in pursuit of a robber. That cop is actually also risking his life.
So that's not someone's labour?

Or the fireman that risks his life rescueing your kids from a burning building? That's not labour?

If all vehicle manufactures stopped production modern civilization would stop.

And if all farmers stopped we will starve.
And if the moon falls out of the sky, life will end.

But perhaps we should at least try and be realistic when we engage in "what if's"?

No it isn't. Individuals die all the time. Still have a GDP and a civilization. New people takes those jobs. It is called death, reproduction and life. AKA the life cycle.


:rolleyes:

Do you realise that countries with universal health care spend LESS per capita on healthcare and achieve BETTER results then the US?

There's actually no need to even go to the "is it a right" argument thingy....
The fact is that government run universal healthcare is less expensive and results in higher quality and better reach and less wait times when done properly.

I don't get people like you.... I mean, this is your HEALTH we are talking about.
Why do think it's a better idea to put your HEALTH in the hands of private companies who exists only to make a profit? Companies who have incentive to find reasons NOT pay your medical bills, because that would mean more profit? Companies who ONLY serve as "middle man", who have NO direct impact on the health care offered, but which ONLY exist to take a slice of the profit (and thereby resulting in higher prices)?

In short: why do you allow YOUR HEALTH to be the product on the back of which companies, who have nothing to do with health care, are raking in billions of dollars? What do these private insurance companies add of value to your health care? Seriously?

What do they do, really, aside from making sure prices (as well as your fees) are through the roof?

On top of it all, you still receive medical bills as those insurance companies won't be covering all expenses anyway.

It's completely insane.

I had surgery a few years ago. I had radio scans, MRI, surgery, 3 follow up appointments and 40 physiotherapy sessions for revalidation. TOTAL cost for me: 140 bucks and 3 weeks PAID sick leave.

Yes, I pay higher taxes to fund the health care system. Truth is through, that the portion of my taxes that is destined for that system, is only a fraction of what premium insurance in the US would cost. And even with that premium insurance, you'ld still pay MORE then that 140 bucks and have no paid sick leave.

It's utterly retarded.


Which only shows that the sick people have no concern for their fellow workers by exposing them to illness. All you have demonstrated is quarantine is necessary

It seems you completely missed the point there.
Without paid sick leave and with health care costs being through the roof... staying home sick is a financial disaster. See, this is why you need a proper affordable system. So that when someone is sick, they can get quick and good care, stay home a few days and then return to work.

This minimizes the worker's loss in productivity and it keeps the other workers from getting sick as well.

It's literally in everybody's benefit: the sick worker, the other workers, the employer and the economy (which is basicly everybody else)

There is a difference between a social safety net and something being a right. The later forces people to provide a service lest they violate someone's rights. The former does not.

I think that's just semantics. And as I said before, the question of "rights" isn't even necessary.
The argument already stands on its own, purely by the aspects of overall costs, minimizing loss of productivity, and overall quality of the care itself.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
But I am also of the opinion that there should be a per capita limit as otherwise the treasury would be bankrupt paying for what people want (as opposed to need)

A proper health care system doesn't refund cosmetics or "wants".
So a boob job because you want bigger boobs: no.

It only refunds needs. And also only insofar as the procedure / meds / whatever has been evaluated and acknowledge by an independend team/comission of medical professionals.

So homeopathy or crystal healings: no.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yeah, the wealthy get wealthier...but only by making those who work for them 'rich,' too. By 'rich,' I mean 'able to live and buy stuff."

If you (general you) don't want to take the risks and work the hours required to do that, and you (again, general you) just want a job that pays you enough to by the stuff you need and want, then consider what will happen to that job if you destroy the guy who hires you.


Yes. Because what you really mean is 'you need to learn to agree with me before you comment."


It's not about whether I agree or disagree with you. It is about making comments like the above.

But, as I said, if you are offended by my method of writing, don't address comments to me.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So when's the last time the police send you a bill to come to your house and arrest a burgler?
Or when's the last time the fire department send you a bill to come to your house and extinguish a fire

In the late1800's fire departments, and police, would often ignore problems at places that had not paid in advance for protection.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It's not about whether I agree or disagree with you. It is about making comments like the above.

But, as I said, if you are offended by my method of writing, don't address comments to me.

Y'know, responding to a comment like: If you (general you) don't want to take the risks and work the hours required to do that, and you (again, general you) just want a job that pays you enough to by the stuff you need and want, then consider what will happen to that job if you destroy the guy who hires you."

By saying 'you need to learn more about the topic,' is not addressing the topic, or responding to the concern. It is simply an ad hominem.

If you think that a comment is missing information, then provide the information. If all you are going to do is tell your respondent that s/he is ignorant, without explaining where that ignorance lies, you are simply insulting him or her.

Exactly what is it about the comment, above, that displays ignorance? THAT would be a far more productive use of your typing time than a post-by snipe about how the writer was too ignorant (or perhaps stupid) to be worth your time.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Y'know, responding to a comment like: If you (general you) don't want to take the risks and work the hours required to do that, and you (again, general you) just want a job that pays you enough to by the stuff you need and want, then consider what will happen to that job if you destroy the guy who hires you."

By saying 'you need to learn more about the topic,' is not addressing the topic, or responding to the concern. It is simply an ad hominem.

If you think that a comment is missing information, then provide the information. If all you are going to do is tell your respondent that s/he is ignorant, without explaining where that ignorance lies, you are simply insulting him or her.

Exactly what is it about the comment, above, that displays ignorance? THAT would be a far more productive use of your typing time than a post-by snipe about how the writer was too ignorant (or perhaps stupid) to be worth your time.
You just wish to argue.

Bye for now
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
"Rights" are a concept made up my humans. No one has any intrinsic inherent right to anything. The founders of America were wrong and high off of Enlightenment philosophy which got a lot wrong about human nature, imo. However, governments have a duty to provide for the people they serve as extensions of the community that represent the needs of citizens. So I would say that governments have the duty to provide needed services that contribute to the wellbeing of the citizenry and society. That would include basic necessities such as healthcare, clean water and housing. Otherwise you just have a sickly impoverished underclass that is barred from reaching their full potential as human beings simply due to the financial circumstances they were born into. That is unjust.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member

So is a cop who goes in pursuit of a robber. That cop is actually also risking his life.
So that's not someone's labour?



Or the fireman that risks his life rescueing your kids from a burning building? That's not labour?



And if all farmers stopped we will starve.
And if the moon falls out of the sky, life will end.

But perhaps we should at least try and be realistic when we engage in "what if's"?


Irrelevant as it is about a right to someone's labour not fulfilled the job's duties. Your point is nonsense.





Do you realise that countries with universal health care spend LESS per capita on healthcare and achieve BETTER results then the US?

Better is subjective. Canada has a NHS system yet the US still have the better medical industry as it is now.

There's actually no need to even go to the "is it a right" argument thingy....
The fact is that government run universal healthcare is less expensive and results in higher quality and better reach and less wait times when done properly.

The OP is about rights.

I don't get people like you.... I mean, this is your HEALTH we are talking about.
Why do think it's a better idea to put your HEALTH in the hands of private companies who exists only to make a profit? Companies who have incentive to find reasons NOT pay your medical bills, because that would mean more profit? Companies who ONLY serve as "middle man", who have NO direct impact on the health care offered, but which ONLY exist to take a slice of the profit (and thereby resulting in higher prices)?

The alternative is putting healthcare is the hands of bureaucrats which is will decline the quality as funding is only based on taxes not the funds that can be used in the open market

In short: why do you allow YOUR HEALTH to be the product on the back of which companies, who have nothing to do with health care, are raking in billions of dollars? What do these private insurance companies add of value to your health care? Seriously?

As NHS has major issues which are a trade off. Quality drops for the sake of national system

What do they do, really, aside from making sure prices (as well as your fees) are through the roof?
On top of it all, you still receive medical bills as those insurance companies won't be covering all expenses anyway.

You are conflating an insurance package as if all insurance.

It's completely insane.

Nope. Just a different view of government and using a NHS system myself.

I had surgery a few years ago. I had radio scans, MRI, surgery, 3 follow up appointments and 40 physiotherapy sessions for revalidation. TOTAL cost for me: 140 bucks and 3 weeks PAID sick leave.

K. So? Not everyone is happy about getting their bills paid by other people.

Yes, I pay higher taxes to fund the health care system. Truth is through, that the portion of my taxes that is destined for that system, is only a fraction of what premium insurance in the US would cost. And even with that premium insurance, you'ld still pay MORE then that 140 bucks and have no paid sick leave.

Yup. Also an assertion as no NHS plan has been implemented so you have no idea what the tax rate will be.

It's utterly retarded.

No. It just means you have no issues using money that isn't yours while I do.




It seems you completely missed the point there.

Nope. I saw the point and added another point.

Without paid sick leave and with health care costs being through the roof... staying home sick is a financial disaster.

So are a lot of medical expense in Canada. NHS does not cover a lot up here and people still go bankrupt.

See, this is why you need a proper affordable system.

No such thing.

So that when someone is sick, they can get quick and good care, stay home a few days and then return to work.

Depends on the time required. After a point the sick can go on disability instead of staying on the dime of an employer they do zero work for.

This minimizes the worker's loss in productivity and it keeps the other workers from getting sick as well.

A replacement worker can do the same

It's literally in everybody's benefit: the sick worker, the other workers, the employer and the economy (which is basicly everybody else)

No it isn't.


I think that's just semantics. And as I said before, the question of "rights" isn't even necessary.

That was the question in the OP.

The argument already stands on its own, purely by the aspects of overall costs, minimizing loss of productivity, and overall quality of the care itself.

No it doesn't as quality drops under a NHS system as funding is limited.. The US still has the superior medical industry
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The police force, the fire department, road maintenance,.... all things accomplished to "other people's labour".

So when's the last time the police send you a bill to come to your house and arrest a burgler?
Or when's the last time the fire department send you a bill to come to your house and extinguish a fire and rescue your kids from a burning building?

You should think things through before you write them down.

You should consider the thread was about healthcare as a right. None of those are rights you mentioned above. Try again son. Context next time
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The volunteer rescue squads are now charging for ambulance rides to the hospital. After receiving the bill, I'm taking Uber if I have to go...

It is at least $120 for an ambulance here in a city of 100k. In Manitoba which has only two cities with a population above 30k it is $500 if outside those cities. Ambulances are not covered by NHS up here. Another fact people never mention.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"Rights" are a concept made up my humans. No one has any intrinsic inherent right to anything. The founders of America were wrong and high off of Enlightenment philosophy which got a lot wrong about human nature, imo. However, governments have a duty to provide for the people they serve as extensions of the community that represent the needs of citizens. So I would say that governments have the duty to provide needed services that contribute to the wellbeing of the citizenry and society. That would include basic necessities such as healthcare, clean water and housing. Otherwise you just have a sickly impoverished underclass that is barred from reaching their full potential as human beings simply due to the financial circumstances they were born into. That is unjust.
The concept of "inalienable rights" only appears in the Declaration of Independence. That is a legal document only for our initial separation from England. It does not have legal standing in the U.S.. In fact the recognition that rights came from the government was why a Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution.
 
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