Is God(s) a Rational Argument?

[Jeremiahcp]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.


***I will not define the term god for you, if want make to a case that God(s) is irrational or rational you will need to explain yourself. It is OK for you to express your opinion in this matter as this debate is not about the evidence. Part of the debate and discussion process is exploring various aspects of the god term. Even though there is no call for evidence you are still expected to make a reasonable argument for why you think it is rational or irrational.

 

[Valjean]

The concept is not arrived at by reason. It's not developed from evidence. It can't be examined or tested. It can't be falsified, and depictions of God are wildly diverse.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

The concept is not arrived at by reason. It's not developed from evidence. It can't be examined or tested. It can't be falsified, and depictions of God are wildly diverse.

The OP explicitly says this is not a discussion about the evidence. Are you suggesting that other then lack of evidence you find it rational?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.


***I will not define the term god for you, if want make to a case that God(s) is irrational or rational you will need to explain yourself. It is OK for you to express your opinion in this matter as this debate is not about the evidence. Part of the debate and discussion process is exploring various aspects of the god term. Even though there is no call for evidence you are still expected to make a reasonable argument for why you think it is rational or irrational.

Nothing irrational. People believe in a lot of things existent and non-existant to help them with everyday life. If I squeezed my brain to find anything irrational about god, hmm. I actually can't think of any. I don't believe god exists. Maybe believing in nothing to live a better life is irrational? But who says it's irrational but the person who doesn't understand it?

Who knows.

 

[Valjean]

Jeremiahcp
The OP explicitly says this is not a discussion about the evidence. Are you suggesting that other then lack of evidence you find it rational?

Not at all. Who would come up with such a strange, completely unsupported idea? I believe it's an accidental artifact of certain neurologic peculiarities of hominids.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Not at all. Who would come up with such a strange, completely unsupported idea? I believe it's an accidental artifact of certain neurologic peculiarities of hominids.

"Who would come up with such a strange, completely unsupported idea? "

It was poke to try and get you to actually address the OP.

 

[Valjean]

God is not a concept that would logically occur to an entirely rational person. There is nothing to suggest it as an explanatory mechanism.

Were it somehow grounded in reason, you'd expect less theological diversity.

 

[Stevicus]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.


***I will not define the term god for you, if want make to a case that God(s) is irrational or rational you will need to explain yourself. It is OK for you to express your opinion in this matter as this debate is not about the evidence. Part of the debate and discussion process is exploring various aspects of the god term. Even though there is no call for evidence you are still expected to make a reasonable argument for why you think it is rational or irrational.

I think "irrational" is a word that gets overused. Everyone is a little bit irrational to some degree. We wouldn't be human if we weren't.

If we're talking about "god" as being the creator of the universe, the Earth, and humanity, then there's any number of infinite possibilities as to what may be. Why pick one explanation over another? We don't really know for certain, so it's all really just a guessing game - which is perfectly fine, in and of itself. But when someone states that they're "certain" that their guess is right, then that may start to border on the irrational, especially if they're unwilling to step outside themselves for a moment and consider the possibility that they might be wrong.

I always found the following scene from The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc rather interesting. Joan of Arc is in a prison cell conversing with her "Conscience" (played by Dustin Hoffman), and she's trying to convince him that she saw all these signs from God which told her that she should fight in a war against the English. She found this sword in a field which she thought was a sign from God, and it's discussed in the scene.

(Mind you, he wasn't saying "God doesn't exist," but he was pointing out that what she thought was "God" probably wasn't.)

 

[Twilight Hue]

Rationality would imply something is well thought out. I don't think rationality applies as much as impulse and emotion in cases where any unsupported concept is taken as being real and interactive when nothing is actually there as it's portrayed to be.

 

[sayak83]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.


***I will not define the term god for you, if want make to a case that God(s) is irrational or rational you will need to explain yourself. It is OK for you to express your opinion in this matter as this debate is not about the evidence. Part of the debate and discussion process is exploring various aspects of the god term. Even though there is no call for evidence you are still expected to make a reasonable argument for why you think it is rational or irrational.

It appears prima facie irrational to believe in a God who acts in history without physical evidence that he has acted in history (apart from humans motivated to act based on such a belief) . So physical evidence is important for some kinds of God concepts.

 

[McBell]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.


***I will not define the term god for you, if want make to a case that God(s) is irrational or rational you will need to explain yourself. It is OK for you to express your opinion in this matter as this debate is not about the evidence. Part of the debate and discussion process is exploring various aspects of the god term. Even though there is no call for evidence you are still expected to make a reasonable argument for why you think it is rational or irrational.

Is it your thought that "rational" must be "true"?
What I mean is do you believe that in order for a train of thought to be rational it also has to be true?

People rationalize all manner of untrue things.
but it is still rationalizing...

 

[icehorse]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.

I always liked the ending of the first Men In Black movie. To the bacteria in a scientist's petri dish, the scientist is a god. To the unfortunate livestock in factory farms, the "farmer" is a god. (and about as "merciful" as the more popular renditions.)

So it's plausible to me that the universe we know, that started 13+ billion years ago with the big bang, IS in fact a large experiment created by beings that would appear godlike to us.

But the definitions of god described by all of the major religions are, IMO, laughable.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.

That's like asking, "Overlooking the price, what is it precisely that you find unaffordable about this dress?"

It makes no sense. The lack of evidence is the whole point of why belief in God is irrational.

 

[wizanda]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.

Anthropomorphism; because if there is a core to reality, it is going to be slightly more than people on clouds.

[GALLERY=media, 7193][/GALLERY]

 

[Ebed]

Actually, it is irrational not to believe in God, inherent within man is the cognizant awareness that He exists, the things made are a witness to His glory, yet man devises many schemes to evade the obvious and supress the truth... Bang, everything creates itself out of nothing... an absurdity that many believe... Cosmologically the existence of an self eternal being ~ God, is the Only rational belief.... The fool says there is no God, and it is foolishness to entertain their folly

Hence

A post from: The Bible by the Numbers of pi

The First occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 souls

Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were Sixty-Six; 72 - Hebrew Total 3858

72/6 = 12 Tribes

3858th vs. Numbers 7:7 Two wagons and Four oxen he gave unto the sons of Gershon, according to their service. 14

Two+Four = 6

~

The Second and Last occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 days

Leviticus 12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean Two Weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying Sixty-Six days. 17 - Hebrew Total 4493

17 = 7th prime

4493rd vs. Numbers 26:3 And Moses and Eleazar the priest spake with them in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 29

~~~



46:26

07:07

12:05

26:03

46+26+7+7+12+5+26+3 = 132

66*2 = 132

~~~

Genesis 46:26
כל הנפש הבאה ליעקב מצרימה יצאי ירכו מלבד נשי בני יעקב כל נפש ששים ושש

Hebrew - Word Value
1 כל 50
2 הנפש 435
3 הבאה 13
4 ליעקב 212
5 מצרימה 385
6 יצאי 111
7 ירכו 236
8 מלבד 76
9 נשי 360
10 בני 62
11 יעקב 182
12 כל 50
13 נפש 430
14 ששים 650
15 ושש 606

-> Total 3858

Leviticus 12:5
ואם נקבה תלד וטמאה שבעים כנדתה וששים יום וששת ימים תשב על דמי טהרה

## Word Value
1 ואם 47
2 נקבה 157
3 תלד 434
4 וטמאה 61
5 שבעים 422
6 כנדתה 479
7 וששים 656
8 יום 56
9 וששת 1006
10 ימים 100
11 תשב 702
12 על 100
13 דמי 54
14 טהרה 219

-> Total 4493

Yad 10 Hey 5 Waw 6 Hey 5 = 26 YHWH

1+5+6+5 = 17

Baruch HaShem


Hebrew Bible

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Actually, it is irrational not to believe in God, inherent within man is the cognizant awareness that He exists, the things made are a witness to His glory, yet man devises many schemes to evade the obvious and supress the truth... Bang, everything creates itself out of nothing... an absurdity that many believe... Cosmologically the existence of an self eternal being ~ God, is the Only rational belief.... The fool says there is no God, and it is foolishness to entertain their folly

Hence

A post from: The Bible by the Numbers of pi

The First occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 souls

Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were Sixty-Six; 72 - Hebrew Total 3858

72/6 = 12 Tribes

3858th vs. Numbers 7:7 Two wagons and Four oxen he gave unto the sons of Gershon, according to their service. 14

Two+Four = 6

~

The Second and Last occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 days

Leviticus 12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean Two Weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying Sixty-Six days. 17 - Hebrew Total 4493

17 = 7th prime

4493rd vs. Numbers 26:3 And Moses and Eleazar the priest spake with them in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 29

~~~



46:26

07:07

12:05

26:03

46+26+7+7+12+5+26+3 = 132

66*2 = 132

~~~

Genesis 46:26
כל הנפש הבאה ליעקב מצרימה יצאי ירכו מלבד נשי בני יעקב כל נפש ששים ושש

Hebrew - Word Value
1 כל 50
2 הנפש 435
3 הבאה 13
4 ליעקב 212
5 מצרימה 385
6 יצאי 111
7 ירכו 236
8 מלבד 76
9 נשי 360
10 בני 62
11 יעקב 182
12 כל 50
13 נפש 430
14 ששים 650
15 ושש 606

-> Total 3858

Leviticus 12:5
ואם נקבה תלד וטמאה שבעים כנדתה וששים יום וששת ימים תשב על דמי טהרה

## Word Value
1 ואם 47
2 נקבה 157
3 תלד 434
4 וטמאה 61
5 שבעים 422
6 כנדתה 479
7 וששים 656
8 יום 56
9 וששת 1006
10 ימים 100
11 תשב 702
12 על 100
13 דמי 54
14 טהרה 219

-> Total 4493

Yad 10 Hey 5 Waw 6 Hey 5 = 26 YHWH

1+5+6+5 = 17

Baruch HaShem


Hebrew Bible

Did you really have to bring that silliness into my thread? You are not helping my case along at all.

 

[columbus]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.

The fact that the more fervent the theist the less his definition matches the myriad of other definitions. This lack of ability to describe God in terms that anyone but the individual understands is solid evidence that God is a character in people's individual narratives.
Not an entity with objective existence.
Tom

 

[Valjean]

Actually, it is irrational not to believe in God, inherent within man is the cognizant awareness that He exists...

If that were so I'd expect theism to be more universal -- and homogenous.
Inherent within man are all sorts of neurological quirks; apophenia, princess Alice effect, &c. Evidence of a million years of psychological selection in hunter-gatherer bands, perhaps, but not of reality.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Is it your thought that "rational" must be "true"?
What I mean is do you believe that in order for a train of thought to be rational it also has to be true?

People rationalize all manner of untrue things.
but it is still rationalizing...

"Is it your thought that "rational" must be "true"?
What I mean is do you believe that in order for a train of thought to be rational it also has to be true?"

No.

 

[Searching1981]

Overlooking the the lack of physical evidence, what is it precisely you find irrational about God(s)? Please explain why.


***I will not define the term god for you, if want make to a case that God(s) is irrational or rational you will need to explain yourself. It is OK for you to express your opinion in this matter as this debate is not about the evidence. Part of the debate and discussion process is exploring various aspects of the god term. Even though there is no call for evidence you are still expected to make a reasonable argument for why you think it is rational or irrational.

I didn't read any of the comments, but I'm sure there is a loop going on so let's try to get out of the loop.

I'm a theist but I can understand liberal atheists. We look at this universe and its inherent emptiness (what is it 99.9% space?) then we look at all the suffering, the disabilities, the inequalities and they conclude either there is no God or this God thing if it does exist is nefarious. It's understandable they are scared and would rather hope there is no God rather than something nefarious is in charge of the whole thing. Rather scary thought isn't it that something nefarious is in charge, in control of our lives and there is no way to escape it?

But, from my own transformative experiences I know there is a God. So, then you ask, "fine assume we put the veil of ignorance on and take you at your word how do you justify this Universe, this Earth?" That's a good question and I think it will get us out of the loop.

My answer, is when Christ says, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man" (John 3:13) or as some translations have, "No one has gone to the Father except He comes from the Father." I think what Jesus Christ is saying is His Father, our God, did not create this place he merely sent him to liberate it. The whole discussion with Nicodemus is important not just John 3:16.

This theory may be radical but there is evidence for it elsewhere in the Bible (forgive me if I diverge from Canon, this is merely a message board for discussion) Such as in Psalms 82, the council of the Gods who judge unjustly and will some day fall like Kings because they are false Gods. But there is more evidence of nefarious False Gods who created this and we of which we are all now liberated.

When John says, (John 3)
All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be 4 through him was life,
and this life was the light of the human race;
5 [d]the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not overcome it.

So, meditate and pay attention to what John is saying. Things to notice, Jesus gave us life and this life was the light of the human race i.e. the life Jesus gives us is different than the human race, then what is the human race? And then in a way that is ominous he says, "and the Darkness has not overcome it." Notice, he John doesn't say, "The Darkness WILL never overcome it," but merely it, "has not," at the time of writing. So, what is this darkness that hasn't (and never will because it has all been resolved) but can, has potential to overcome the human race.

John, is a Genius and my favorite of the apostles. He's really outlining the whole thing. I'll let you read between the lines if you can but the point is if you see this place nefarious and the people in it nefarious it's because they did not come from God.

Just some alternative thinking to break out of loops.