• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is GOD real?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That's not how rationality works. It doesn't change from person to person. It isn't "hey, it makes sense to me!" To be rational, you must conform to the laws of logic, you must employ critical thinking and skepticism. What you're really doing is engaging in word games. You don't want to be seen as irrational so you're just changing the definition of the word and laying claim to it.

Rationality is based on facts. What you and I accept as fact maybe different. I can't force you to accept something as fact regardless of how firmly I belief it is a fact. And vice versa, therefore what we accept as rational may not be the same.

None of which makes it rational. You had an experience, you defined the experience the way you wanted it defined. You did not test your premises, nor your conclusions, to see if they were the most reasonable explanation for whatever happened to you.

All based on what I have decided were the facts of my experiences.

Or simply leave it at "I don't know" and stop trying to attach further significance to it.

But that is what humans do. That is all we do. Attach significance to our experiences. I see this and understand this and realize how arbitrary it all is. Man creates the knowledge, defines the knowledge and determines what the facts are. We did this with God and now do the same with objective reality.

But that's the problem, you should be. Everyone should be. Reality matters.

You decide what matters. you can decide it for yourself. You can't decide it for me.

No, you accept what you experience as an initial starting place, then you go on to test your experiences and evaluate them rationally. If someone who was color blind simply accepted their senses, they'd come to the conclusion that there was no color in the world and they would be incorrect. It is only through further evaluation that we can come closer to the truth.

Lets say there is a God sense. You don't have it, someone else does. For example Christians claim the Holy Spirit is their God sense. Someone with out this sense would conclude there is no God and they would be incorrect. It is only through further evaluation we can come closer to the truth.

But your personal view really doesn't matter to anyone but you. There is a larger objective reality out there, what actually exists beyond our beliefs and desires and dreams, it's what continues to exist once we stop applying our beliefs to it. That's what really makes a difference because it's the reality in which we all actually live. Can the Christian God exist? Sure. Is it likely? No. Can the Hindu gods exist? Sure. Is it likely? No. How any of it makes you feel is entirely irrelevant to whether it's actually so. People need to be more concerned with what actually is and less with what they wish was. It doesn't actually get them anywhere.

We are not capable of observing objective reality, we can't experience it. There exists no objective proof for it. Yet you insist it exists. The only thing we know is subjective reality based on our own experiences.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Rationality is based on facts. What you and I accept as fact maybe different. I can't force you to accept something as fact regardless of how firmly I belief it is a fact. And vice versa, therefore what we accept as rational may not be the same.

Facts aren't based on what you accept but on what is actually true. Whether you accept it or not is entirely irrelevant. Someone can believe the speed of light is 47mph. They're just wrong. It isn't a fact in any way, shape or form, no matter how much they wish it was so. Rationality is indeed based on facts. Just believing something doesn't make it a fact, any more than rejecting something makes it not a fact.

All based on what I have decided were the facts of my experiences.

Your opinions about your experiences, you mean. It's only when you can demonstrate that your experiences actually happened as you believe they did that it becomes a fact.

But that is what humans do. That is all we do. Attach significance to our experiences. I see this and understand this and realize how arbitrary it all is. Man creates the knowledge, defines the knowledge and determines what the facts are. We did this with God and now do the same with objective reality.

Just because people do it doesn't mean it's the rational thing to do. People attach irrational and factually incorrect significance to their experiences, we both agree with that. The only way for these things to be rational is for them not to do so. People doing something irrational doesn't suddenly become rational because everyone is doing it.

You decide what matters. you can decide it for yourself. You can't decide it for me.

I'm not trying to. What is important to you has no bearing on what is objectively rational though.

Lets say there is a God sense. You don't have it, someone else does. For example Christians claim the Holy Spirit is their God sense. Someone with out this sense would conclude there is no God and they would be incorrect. It is only through further evaluation we can come closer to the truth.

But that's just something that you pulled out of thin air, it isn't demonstrated. Let me know when this "God sense" has actually been shown to be real, until then I'm not going to play hypotheticals.

We are not capable of observing objective reality, we can't experience it. There exists no objective proof for it. Yet you insist it exists. The only thing we know is subjective reality based on our own experiences.

Perfectly? Probably not. We can work to come closer and closer to observing objective reality though. We can understand our own shortcomings and work to overcome them as best we can. That's what science does. There are reasons we have to think critically about our experiences so we can accept those things that are objectively best supported and reject those things that are not, thereby getting closer to reality. If you want to live in a self-imposed fantasy land, feel free, certainly nobody can stop you, but you're not rational when you do so.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Facts aren't based on what you accept but on what is actually true. Whether you accept it or not is entirely irrelevant. Someone can believe the speed of light is 47mph. They're just wrong. It isn't a fact in any way, shape or form, no matter how much they wish it was so. Rationality is indeed based on facts. Just believing something doesn't make it a fact, any more than rejecting something makes it not a fact.

Only true for you because you believe in a definition. Whatever you accept as fact there is always room for doubt. Which means your acceptance of a fact is a matter of opinion. Whatever you otherwise wish to claim about it.

Your opinions about your experiences, you mean. It's only when you can demonstrate that your experiences actually happened as you believe they did that it becomes a fact.

Which is only what I've being trying to tell you. It is what is required to persuade your opinion about it being a fact.

Just because people do it doesn't mean it's the rational thing to do. People attach irrational and factually incorrect significance to their experiences, we both agree with that. The only way for these things to be rational is for them not to do so. People doing something irrational doesn't suddenly become rational because everyone is doing it.

It becomes rational, or accepted as rational if everyone agrees to accept the same set of facts it is based on. Actuality is only necessary by virtue of definition. In reality the only requirement is agreement. You agree based on your opinion of what is necessary for acceptance.


I'm not trying to. What is important to you has no bearing on what is objectively rational though.

Sure if it exists. If it doesn't exist then it would have no bearing on our subjective experience.

But that's just something that you pulled out of thin air, it isn't demonstrated. Let me know when this "God sense" has actually been shown to be real, until then I'm not going to play hypotheticals.

So is objective reality. I'm willing to play with both hypotheticals. No body says you have to.

Perfectly? Probably not. We can work to come closer and closer to observing objective reality though. We can understand our own shortcomings and work to overcome them as best we can. That's what science does. There are reasons we have to think critically about our experiences so we can accept those things that are objectively best supported and reject those things that are not, thereby getting closer to reality. If you want to live in a self-imposed fantasy land, feel free, certainly nobody can stop you, but you're not rational when you do so.

No,

objective - intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.

Do you believe you can exist external to your mind? That's the only way you or science could experience or know about an objective reality.

All anyone can know is their subjective experience. What we have is an interpretation by the mind much of which we have no control over. What ever you accept as fact is the result of your mind's interpretation. Some of it you may have control over, some of it you don't.

Birds can sense the earth's magnetic fields. Bats see by sound. So much of the world other species have senses for we do not. Yet we claim to have the authority to determine objective reality. Mankind remains as arrogant as ever.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I have no problem being the result of random chance. I accept reality as it is. My personal feelings don't enter into it. You've got a superiority complex, you want to be special. You're not.

No actually.....to be counted among the least of servants....
would get my two feet in the Door.

The alternative is a grave.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
No actually.....to be counted among the least of servants....
would get my two feet in the Door.

The alternative is a grave.

The grave isn't an alternative since nobody has any choice. Everyone dies. Deal with it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The grave isn't an alternative since nobody has any choice. Everyone dies. Deal with it.
I believe in life after death.
I will be dealt with as I have dealt with others.
Likely to be grouped with others like myself.
How else to be happy?...how else to be fair?

No life beyond the grave?......good luck with that.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The grave isn't an alternative since nobody has any choice.

True, and even if one has a belief in some form of afterlife or continuation, there is no avoiding the reality that death parts us from everything and everyone we have known and grown attached to in this life.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I believe in life after death.
I will be dealt with as I have dealt with others.
Likely to be grouped with others like myself.
How else to be happy?...how else to be fair?

No life beyond the grave?......good luck with that.

You can believe in anything you want. You can believe in leprechauns and unicorns for all I care. Until you can demonstrate that such things actually exist in objective reality, none of these beliefs are any better than any other.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
True, and even if one has a belief in some form of afterlife or continuation, there is no avoiding the reality that death parts us from everything and everyone we have known and grown attached to in this life.

That's the thing, I don't care what anyone believes unless they can demonstrate that it is objectively so. Saying "I believe in God" or "I believe in an afterlife" means no more to me than someone saying "I believe in the Easter Bunny".
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You can believe in anything you want. You can believe in leprechauns and unicorns for all I care. Until you can demonstrate that such things actually exist in objective reality, none of these beliefs are any better than any other.

Belief can be based on faith.
I prefer likelihood.
Billions of copies of a device designed to learn and we all fail?
No one survives the last breath?

Odds are good....a few will carry on.
 
In the end, it is up to the religious to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that God exists, since they are making the claim. However, since God has not been proven in such a way, as well as the fact that a supreme being cannot be proven to be nonexistent beyond reasonable doubt. This is why evolution vs. creationism debates are big jock contests. Neither side can prove his/her point, and, therefore, it is possible that a deity exists, but also impossible.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
A line of reason is all you will ever see.

So then the problem is yours....where to draw the line.
 
Spirit and soul are also a matter of belief. Who knows?
It is good to note that the spirit, according to the Hebrew words "neshamah" (נְשָׁמָה), "qadiym"/"qadim" (קָדִם), "rûach" (רוּחַ), and "shâ'aph" (שָׁאַף), is the breath. Also, the Hebrew word "nephesh" (נֶפֶשׁ) defines the soul as more to do with the passions, emotions, will, and functions of the mind.
 
Top