Is God a humanist?

[designedhumanist]

Think about this. Cast your imagination to the future and see us in our next major evolutionary change. Its not important what it really looks like, so lets just make a few things up for the sake of argument. Lets go about 5 million years in the future just for fun (not necessarily enough time to make significant change, but indulge me). Say we have more complex brains that allow us to see much more of the spectrum like infrared or ultraviolet that we've been studying for so long as a species. Say we've developed a much more resistant skin to survive our shattered ozone...

Now, consider some of the other species on the planet. They will have 5 million years to evolve as well. How many of them will evolve into a species something like us now? Some of them are pretty close as it is. A better memory and language are about all that's missing from most mammals. Its not completely unreasonable to expect that some alternate species of canines, for example, begins to learn more complex communication skills in order to occupy an ever increasing equality to humans.


So god is probably a 'life-ist' as opposed to a humanist.

First of all, I think that human evolution has moved outside of the natural system of selection into our own human system in which we are starting to gain control over things like disease and genes, and we will continue to get more control. I believe this was the intention of God--he gave us our ability to do this.

A quote from the book, GOD The Ultimate Humanist (amazon) that talks about our divinely guided evolution:
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]...if our specific characteristics were generated and selected through this natural process, where are the other species that are similar to us in their ability to feel emotion, use their imagination and cognitive abilities, change their environment and act outside of instinct? No other species has these abilities in any way similar to ours. We are the only creatures that can imagine a different reality than the one we are living, and the only ones that can change it by acting on that imagination. While we are busy smashing subatomic particles together in the Large Hadron Collider a hundred meters under the border of Switzerland and France, our nearest genetic relatives are busy throwing feces at each other in a steel cage in the zoo.[/FONT]

 

[Sir Doom]

First of all, I think that human evolution has moved outside of the natural system of selection into our own human system in which we are starting to gain control over things like disease and genes, and we will continue to get more control.

Granted, we have learned to adapt our environment to ourselves instead of the other way around. But this is only because of two major factors (in my observations, anyway) One, we have evolved a very universal form. Our bodies are all-terrain vehicles with the exception of flight (although we jump and climb pretty well which is a close second). Two, we have oral and written language capacity. That means that we are not limited by the physical memories of our lifetime. We learn from our dead ancestors. No other species has developed this capacity to my knowledge. This allows us to learn from memories we don't even have.

However, neither of these factors eliminates the process of physical evolution. Our environment may be changing to suit us by our design, but that will only guide the evolution in a different path, not eliminate it. That's why I imagined the traits that I did. They were based directly upon our environmental changes.

I believe this was the intention of God--he gave us our ability to do this.

I would tend to agree that if god is responsible for life on this planet, he absolutely intended for intelligence to develop. However, I think you have the second part backwards. He gave intelligence to life and we are (so far) the best example of why. You seem to be suggesting that god examined all the species on the planet and said, "Hey look these hairless apes seem pretty good." ZAPP! "Have some intelligence!" That's a complete departure from evolution. Why would god bother with all of that when the process for ever-increasing intelligence was already there?

A quote from the book, GOD The Ultimate Humanist (amazon) that talks about our divinely guided evolution:
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]...if our specific characteristics were generated and selected through this natural process, where are the other species that are similar to us in their ability to feel emotion, use their imagination and cognitive abilities, change their environment and act outside of instinct? No other species has these abilities in any way similar to ours. We are the only creatures that can imagine a different reality than the one we are living, and the only ones that can change it by acting on that imagination. While we are busy smashing subatomic particles together in the Large Hadron Collider a hundred meters under the border of Switzerland and France, our nearest genetic relatives are busy throwing feces at each other in a steel cage in the zoo.[/FONT]

I suggest you read more than one book to determine your beliefs. That's just a suggestion. Do what you will, of course. I reject this quote as nothing more than the biased opinion of someone who wishes humanity was somehow special in the grand scheme of things and is twisting the data to facilitate this. Siting the behavior of caged chimps as a benchmark for our superiority is pretty ludicrous. I wonder if the author has ever examined human behavior in a caged environment. I would guess not or they might not have made such a misplaced assumption. I would love to debate this author, by the way. Can you contact them and tell them to make an RF account so I can freely discuss these matters with them?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

No.

God is a Godist.

You're a psychic -wary-

 

[designedhumanist]

I suggest you read more than one book to determine your beliefs. That's just a suggestion. Do what you will, of course.

First of all, If you want to have a real debate, being rude is not the way to start. I hope the rest of your arguments are not as clearly fallacious and malicious as the one above.

 

[designedhumanist]

Granted, we have learned to adapt our environment to ourselves instead of the other way around. But this is only because of two major factors (in my observations, anyway) One, we have evolved a very universal form. Our bodies are all-terrain vehicles with the exception of flight (although we jump and climb pretty well which is a close second)...

However, neither of these factors eliminates the process of physical evolution. Our environment may be changing to suit us by our design, but that will only guide the evolution in a different path, not eliminate it. That's why I imagined the traits that I did. They were based directly upon our environmental changes.

I disagree. We do not have a universal form. We are able to survive in the habitats we do only because we have the intelligence and imagination to manipulate them. Animals don't have imagination or they could envision a different reality and act upon it like we can. It is not only intelligence that is necessary. The natural world acts on instinct, we can override most of ours.

Your also disagree with your idea that we are evolving in the same way as nature. Using your example, if someone develops the ability to withstand higher UV levels, our population with adopt that trait. Or would we just develop technology to protect ourselves from it? Maybe in some doomsday scenario we might revert to true evolution, but in our modern societies we have made evolution almost irrelevant. Many millions of people who should have died under your theory are still alive and reproducing because of our ability to use cognitive ability to circumvent natural processes.

 

[designedhumanist]

You seem to be suggesting that god examined all the species on the planet and said, "Hey look these hairless apes seem pretty good." ZAPP! "Have some intelligence!" That's a complete departure from evolution. Why would god bother with all of that when the process for ever-increasing intelligence was already there?

I seem to be, and am clearly, suggesting that God has a purpose for us.

 

[designedhumanist]

(Citing) Siting the behavior of caged chimps as a benchmark for our superiority is pretty ludicrous. I wonder if the author has ever examined human behavior in a caged environment. I would guess not or they might not have made such a misplaced assumption.

I, as the author, suggest that there is an enormous gap between us and the natural world. While we share biological processes and participate in the ecosystem, we are the unique species on the planet that is outside of natural controls and can actually permanently destroy the environment, as such we are a risk to nature's self-correcting systems if we don't recognize this position.

The chimp example is to highlight the difference in our ability, not just intelligence, but our imagination. If you put generally balanced men in a prison with good conditions(like a zoo) what happens? Did Nelson Mandela go crazy and attack his fellow prisoners? Under extreme conditions, behavior turns instinctual, yes I agree. That is not what I was discussing. Like your argument for human evolution, it only works under extreme conditions, not our normal reality.

 

[waitasec]

I seem to be, and am clearly, suggesting that God has a purpose for us.

is it an intended purpose or purpose by default and by what criteria do you determine this claim?

 

[waitasec]

I, as the author, suggest that there is an enormous gap between us and the natural world. While we share biological processes and participate in the ecosystem,

can you elaborate on that and explain how this is to be ignored?

we are the unique species on the planet that is outside of natural controls and can actually permanently destroy the environment, as such we are a risk to nature's self-correcting systems if we don't recognize this position.

so because we have the ability to rationalize, we are out side of natural control? have you considered that we (all living creatures) are at the mercy of disease, extreme weather, and natural disasters?

 

[designedhumanist]

is it an intended purpose or purpose by default and by what criteria do you determine this claim?

I believe it is an intended purpose. I don't believe that things exist without a reason to exist and if you accept that we were created or our development was influenced, it seems logical to believe that it was done for a reason, not on a meaningless whim.

 

[designedhumanist]

can you elaborate on that and explain how this is to be ignored? ...so because we have the ability to rationalize, we are out side of natural control? have you considered that we (all living creatures) are at the mercy of disease, extreme weather, and natural disasters?

I am not ignoring that our human system originated in the biological system and that we depend on and are subject to nature. I am saying that nature is a system that has very specific self-regulating mechanisms to deal with behavior(instinct) and mutation for adaptation to changing conditions. We have the ability to operate outside of that system, as shown by our ability to choose to ignore instinctive responses, continuously modify the environment in unnatural (GM) and harmful ways, circumvent the selection processes of evolution(modern medicine) and be universal opportunists and square pegs in the food chain, environments and natural species systems. We are anathema to the natural system because we don't have to obey most of its regulatory functions.

 

[waitasec]

I believe it is an intended purpose. I don't believe that things exist without a reason to exist and if you accept that we were created or our development was influenced, it seems logical to believe that it was done for a reason, not on a meaningless whim.

have you considered that we adapted to our environment rather than the other way around?

 

[designedhumanist]

have you considered that we adapted to our environment rather than the other way around?

It doesn't make sense to me that we developed our abilities through a natural process. The natural selection process selects against species that don't follow the rules and those traits should have been culled.

 

[designedhumanist]

If our ability to imagine and act to change our reality against natural controls was so beneficial, why are we the only species that can do it? Wouldn't other species have developed this through random mutation and selection if it is so great for our survival?

 

[waitasec]

I am not ignoring that our human system originated in the biological system and that we depend on and are subject to nature. I am saying that nature is a system that has very specific self-regulating mechanisms to deal with behavior(instinct) and mutation for adaptation to changing conditions. We have the ability to operate outside of that system, as shown by our ability to choose to ignore instinctive responses, continuously modify the environment in unnatural (GM) and harmful ways, circumvent the selection processes of evolution(modern medicine) and be universal opportunists and square pegs in the food chain, environments and natural species systems. We are anathema to the natural system because we don't have to obey most of its regulatory functions.

i respectfully disagree. natural selection will ultimately take it's course. consider this, 'plants are migrating north and animals are migrating at different rates because of climate changes. nature knows what is happening before man knows...' and i quote neil degrasse tyson very loosely

 

[waitasec]

If our ability to imagine and act to change our reality against natural controls was so beneficial, why are we the only species that can do it? Wouldn't other species have developed this through random mutation and selection if it is so great for our survival?

but think of it this way, just because we can do it doesn't mean it's best for us. power requires responsibility and responsibility requires knowledge...we lack knowledge. we don't have the entire picture and are feeling our way in the dark.

 

[designedhumanist]

i respectfully disagree. natural selection will ultimately take it's course. consider this, 'plants are migrating north and animals are migrating at different rates because of climate changes. nature knows what is happening before man knows...' and i quote neil degrasse tyson very loosely

I agree with your last statement. I don't think we have control over our situation. However, in looking at the trend of man through history, we have continually made progress in the right direction despite countless set backs. We are moving toward better health, democracy, human rights, equality, and slowly, not quickly enough, toward sustainability and environmental protection.

Although the natural system is too complicated for us to control, we have a special responsibility for it because of our precarious position outside of its controls(and we depend on it to survive). I have faith that humanity will eventually find a way to live harmoniously with the environment but in an inherently unnatural way.

 

[waitasec]

I agree with your last statement. I don't think we have control over our situation. However, in looking at the trend of man through history, we have continually made progress in the right direction despite countless set backs. We are moving toward better health, democracy, human rights, equality, and slowly, not quickly enough, toward sustainability and environmental protection.

you are forgetting about the rest of the world...the way we treat 3rd world countries will came and bite us in the end...there is a huge imbalance and the scale is going to adjust causing nothing but havoc in the world the powerful countries have created. it will be the beginning of the end of what we know.
there is a give and take system and right now it's time to give whether we want to or not.

Although the natural system is too complicated for us to control, we have a special responsibility for it because of our precarious position outside of its controls(and we depend on it to survive).

like i said responsibility requires knowledge..a knowledge we haven't fully grasped.

I have faith that humanity will eventually find a way to live harmoniously with the environment

i share that hope.

but in an inherently unnatural way.

what do you mean, are you talking in a spiritual sense?

 

[designedhumanist]

you are forgetting about the rest of the world...the way we treat 3rd world countries will came and bite us in the end...there is a huge imbalance and the scale is going to adjust causing nothing but havoc in the world the powerful countries have created. it will be the beginning of the end of what we know.
there is a give and take system and right now it's time to give whether we want to or not.


...what do you mean, are you talking in a spiritual sense?

I talk about this in my book specifically, that we need to be concerned with the well-being of all humanity because what happens to others affects us all, maybe indirectly, but it does have a very real effect. We cannot have a balanced existence with nature and each other without all of humanity having conditions and life quality to work for our mutual benefit.

I believe that we can, through technology and knowledge, achieve a balance with nature that will only be supportable through the constant maintenance by man with unnatural means.

 

[Iti oj]

If our ability to imagine and act to change our reality against natural controls was so beneficial, why are we the only species that can do it? Wouldn't other species have developed this through random mutation and selection if it is so great for our survival?

Beavers damn
bees nest
birds nest.
chimps tools
crows dialectetc