Is forced labour in prisons ethical?

[Spice]

I don't know anything about it, is there some sort of official source on what task/(s) are allowed?

Various prisons, or "camps", as well as variations from state to state, as well as federal incarceration facilities and private incarceration facilities, there are many, many points if consideration. But they are all monitored -- some better than others -- and there's even separate facilities fir the criminally insane. Learn how it works before making a decision on what's ethical and what's not. Also learn how the variations translate to "rehabilitation."

 

[Spice]

Do you think it would have done his mental health any good to have been stuck in solitary confinement?

Now to solitary confinement? Which by the way is often the safest place to be. Also some request it prior to their release date to get their minds recalibrate for the outside. Solitary confinement is no longer the sweat box as depicted in the movie Coolhand Luke, though I remember those in-ground metal boxes at the camp my father worked at.

 

[Spice]

Myself, I'd give them the choice along with some benefit of their servitude.

That is oftentimes a factor-- according to the crime and sentence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it's interesting how, so far, the question of ethics has only focused on the question of whether it's ethical to force inmates to work and not at all (AFAICT) on the question of whether it's ethical for a government or private prison to undercut other suppliers by using a workforce that's paid far less than minimum wage and has no right to withhold their labour.

Prison labour isn't just services directly for government like making licence plates and cleaning up trash on the highway. It's also things like call centres and producing goods for sale.

 

[Revoltingest]

Now to solitary confinement? Which by the way is often the safest place to be.

Not necessarily.
Safe from prisoner assault, yes.
But not safe from assault by guards,
or from mental torment.

Also some request it prior to their release date to get their minds recalibrate for the outside. Solitary confinement is no longer the sweat box as depicted in the movie Coolhand Luke, though I remember those in-ground metal boxes at the camp my father worked at.

Solitary confinement can have
widely disparate effects on people,
depending upon the person, privileges,
& time spent.

 

[libre]

The potential benefit would be to partially offset the cost of incarceration. So, as a somewhat trivial example, I spent a month at a California "honor farm" (aka detention center). Presumably, at least some the produce was available for consumption by the inmates.

Fair enough.

We used to have prison farms here in Ontario and the federal government closed them down, it was actually something prison activists protested against because it robbed prisoners of one of a few avenue where they could acquire real skills and fulfillment.

In my view I see offsetting the cost of incarceration with forced labour would be popular due to political expediency in times of austerity rather than out of necessity, as one may have been able to argue for some allied countries in say the 30s or 40s.

I would be concerned that forced labour would reinforce punitive aspects of the justice system away from rehabilitation.
Norway abolished forced labour in it's prisons over 50 years ago and their model seems much more moral to me than any of the countries that employ forced labour today.

 

[idea]

70% of American prisoners have not been convicted, could be innocent.

Lots of $$ making schemes unfortunately. Now that pot is legal, the free prisonlabor is comingfrom immigrants.

"About 30% (197,000) of persons in jail in 2022 were convicted, serving a sentence or awaiting sentencing, while 70% (466,100) were unconvicted, awaiting court action on a current charge or being held for other reasons. This was similar to 2021, when 29% of inmates were convicted and 71% were unconvicted.Sep 20, 2023"

BJS Releases Preliminary Statistics on Incarcerated Populations in 2022 | Office of Justice Programs

BJS Releases Preliminary Statistics on Incarcerated Populations in 2022 WASHINGTON ― Local jails nationwide held 663,100 persons in custody at midyear 2022, 4% more than at this time the year before (636,100), according to a new release of preliminary data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics...

www.ojp.gov

 

[danieldemol]

So you believe children should not have to have chores, involving little to no monetary compensation, to learn responsibility, cooperation, and to learn we all must "pay our way" in life?

I give my child chores, but I dont stick them in solitary confinement if they refuse to do them.
Instead I explain the need for us all to play our part and urge them not to be lazy if they stop. Its been far more productive in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

That doesn't make them useless to society! That's a stigma that needs serious correction.

I never said they were useless to society, only that they may well be unfit to work for various reasons.

Do you believe we should abolish retirement due to your in my view false dichotomy of fit to work or useless?

 

[danieldemol]

They have their evaluations to determine a lot of various things. Again, depending on the crime and sentence.

Should it not be determined on their fitness to work as opposed to their crime and sentence?

 

[danieldemol]

Now you've changed your scenario from forced labor to hard labor. Huge difference!

How do you prevent hard labor if the workers can't strike when issued a task to hard for them to bear?

'Penal labour is a term for various kinds of forced labour[1] that prisoners are required to perform, typically manual labour. The work may be light or hard, depending on the context.[2] Forms of sentence involving penal labour have included involuntary servitude, penal servitude, and imprisonment with hard labour.'

Source: Penal labour - Wikipedia

 

[The Hammer]

Is forced labour in prisons ethical? My intuitive hunch is probably not, so why do we allow it exactly?

No, I don't think so

 

[libre]

70% of American prisoners have not been convicted, could be innocent.

Lots of $$ making schemes unfortunately. Now that pot is legal, the free prisonlabor is comingfrom immigrants.

"About 30% (197,000) of persons in jail in 2022 were convicted, serving a sentence or awaiting sentencing, while 70% (466,100) were unconvicted, awaiting court action on a current charge or being held for other reasons. This was similar to 2021, when 29% of inmates were convicted and 71% were unconvicted.Sep 20, 2023"

BJS Releases Preliminary Statistics on Incarcerated Populations in 2022 | Office of Justice Programs

BJS Releases Preliminary Statistics on Incarcerated Populations in 2022 WASHINGTON ― Local jails nationwide held 663,100 persons in custody at midyear 2022, 4% more than at this time the year before (636,100), according to a new release of preliminary data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics...

www.ojp.gov

That statistic is concerning, but you should note that it for jail specifically, not prison.

 

[danieldemol]

Now to solitary confinement? Which by the way is often the safest place to be.

Have you ever been in solitary confinement in a prison context?
The recommendation of the Australian Human Rights Commission was that it only be used as a last resort if i recall;

'77. Multiple studies confirm that the use of solitary confinement in institutional settings is often harmful. There is ‘unequivocal evidence’ that solitary confinement has a profound impact on health and wellbeing, and that children and young people are particularly susceptible.'

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0QFnoECA8QBg&usg=AOvVaw3SmaDYS-BAtohawgCepXeG

 

[Spice]

I give my child chores, but I dont stick them in solitary confinement if they refuse to do them.
Instead I explain the need for us all to play our part and urge them not to be lazy if they stop. Its been far more productive in my view.

I don't see how solitary confinement plays into chores -- unless a fight breaks out and they try to kill each other -- then time-out and grounding would be called for.

 

[Spice]

I never said they were useless to society, only that they may well be unfit to work for various reasons.

Do you believe we should abolish retirement due to your in my view false dichotomy of fit to work or useless?

You're way off base on this one. Retirement has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to be useful at a certain age! Shame on you!

 

[Spice]

Should it not be determined on their fitness to work as opposed to their crime and sentence?

You truly don't get this at all, do you? Someone who has been found guilty of mass murder will not be evaluated for work-release. Work-release is like an employment opportunity that the prison officials say an inmate may or may not apply for rather than being confinded to in-house work.

You just need to do some research......

 

[Spice]

Have you ever been in solitary confinement in a prison context?
The recommendation of the Australian Human Rights Commission was that it only be used as a last resort if i recall;

'77. Multiple studies confirm that the use of solitary confinement in institutional settings is often harmful. There is ‘unequivocal evidence’ that solitary confinement has a profound impact on health and wellbeing, and that children and young people are particularly susceptible.'

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/ahrc_-_follow-up_to_un_cat_concluding_observations_15.09.23_0.docx#:~:text=While%20the%20term%20'solitary%20confinement,institutional%20settings%20is%20often%20harmful.&ved=2ahUKEwiar4ODgOGFAxV1bmwGHbsXBT0QFnoECA8QBg&usg=AOvVaw3SmaDYS-BAtohawgCepXeG

Have you ever been to a prison at all? Have you ever known someone incarcerated well enough to get letters and phone calls daily? To hear what went on last night? To listen as they try to shut out their reality for a few minutes? Do you have an inkling of any idea what's it really and truly like?

I'm done here.

 

[Eddi]

What would happen if you were in prison and you were told to do some work but refused?

What they gonna do?????

Lock you up inside a prison inside a prison?????

 

[Stevicus]

What would happen if you were in prison and you were told to do some work but refused?

What they gonna do?????

Lock you up inside a prison inside a prison?????

You spend a night in the box. (See post #41.)