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Featured Is Defense of the Gospel a Legitimate Activity?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by thomas t, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    We teach as fact that the universe created itself when it didn't exist, and for
    no reason whatsoever.
    And we teach that most of the values espoused in the bible are sexist,
    racist, homophobic, transphobic, oppressive, patriarchal, imperialist,
    superstition etc..
    Religion IS taught in American schools - but it's a new form of religion,
    state sanctioned.
     
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  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    That particular atheist has a strange idea of what constitutes 'lying'. I get that they think the other side is incorrect, but that doesn't equate to them 'lying'.
     
  3. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Hopefully not as fact. But are you suggesting science is inappropriate to teach at school?

    At school? That seems strange. Who is wasting teaching time dissecting the Bible?

    There are lots of ways the education system should be reformed. But increasing support for Christianity wouldn't be one I would see as sensible or supportable.
    Still, I have to ask...how does this relate to the OP?
     
  4. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Paul did say one could focus more on God if celibate....but that's not all.

    He said it's better to marry for those that have desire, want a spouse.

    Both. 2 messages, not just 1.


     
  5. Irate State

    Irate State Äkta människor

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    How does it work all faiths telling the truth?
     
  6. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Apologetics is the industry that -- because religious texts say a lot of things that they ought not to say and don't really support the religious beliefs that the apologist adheres to -- tries to explain away all the nonsense.

    It is my view that if scripture is truly "inspired by God," then it cannot be wrong, and therefore needs no explanation. An omnicient deity can hardly be supposed to be so careless.

    Therefore, again in my view, apologetics is finding ways to justify the lies that others have told. I've yet to find anything (even by the highly-vaunted apologist William Laine Craig) that I couldn't logically tear down as soon as I find out where the false axiom was inserted. (This is actually usually quite easy with Craig.)
     
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  7. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Science IS appropriate. It's super important too. Whether its taught or not
    has a bearing upon what sort of nation you have.
    But there's problems here: I read this the other day about Masada and the
    Romans. Someone wrote in Wikipedia to the effect "There is no evidence
    the defenders of Masada committed suicide." Now that's scholarly, sort of.
    But like a lot of scholars this one is implying,or can be read as implying, that
    such and such 'never happened.'
    This is the problem with the tree of knowledge.
    People don't have to 'dissect the bible', the course of knowledge taught can
    do that without mentioning its name. To the point where you can't read a bible
    without applying a different methodology altogether.
    I am not advocating Christian education - that age has past, and the results
    are starting to come in since about 1900 as to what sort of world we are
    making for ourselves. Note my profile stats on this.
     
  8. Psalm23

    Psalm23 Member

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    If not for the caption of the picture, these two ladies in my opinion look rather peaceful and happy together. It is a beautiful thing to me when people of different religions can come together and share with each other in peace and love :blush::sparklingheart:
     
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  9. Irate State

    Irate State Äkta människor

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    So meta, an apologetic comment in a post about apologetics. Plus the good ole' run of the mill cherry picking.
     
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  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Agreed. As well as how it is taught.

    Scholarly, perhaps, but not scientific. And given Wiki's nature, perhaps not even scholarly.
    However, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Masada is an interesting topic, and there are issues with the original history of Flavius Josephus that I'm happy to articulate if you are interested. Not falling on any side of the controversy, really, but if you subscribe to the 'traditional' view of the defenders mass suiciding, and some of the other associated 'information' Flavius presented, there are some hard to reconcile considerations.

    I'm not a scholar, though. But classical history is a hobby.

    What's the problem? Not quite sure what you meant here, honestly.

    There have recently been moves by conservative governments in Australia to better establish curriculum 'acknowledging our Judeo-Christian roots' and in some ways the argument amounted to the Bible and Christianity being profoundly impactful, and that because of this they could (and should) be studied as any other profoundly impactful movement and text would be. I find the whole thing completely disingenuous (studying them 'like other impactful movements and text' would raise plenty of controversies, and I think this is more about re-introducing biblical beliefs into secular schooling). Wasn't sure what you meant, and whether this is the kind of thing you are talking about.

    I took the following from your profile, based on your comment earlier...
    There is an element of self-fulfilling prophecy in this, though. The further the world moves from Christianity, the more opinion will move from Christian values. That doesn't mean the world is moving away from 'values' per se, though, or becoming less moral.

    As a simple example, I see some of the treatment and segregation of LGBTQ+ people (in terms of laws, etc, as well as general treatment) as pretty immoral. So a move of approval/acceptance from 40 to 72% is a move to a MORE moral position, to me. I get that you disagree, and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am merely making the point that OF COURSE a society with decreasing levels of Christianity would move away from Christian moral values.

    (I'm broad-brushing, and treating Christian's as homogeneous here, when they are obviously not, so apologies)

    You also need to account for the willingness of people to volunteer information. 'Married men having affairs' is an interesting one. 9% suggest it's okay now, apparently. But more than 9% of married men have affairs. And that is NOT new. Heck, more than 9% of women do as well, so not sure why us masculine types are being singled out (but I'll assume it's just the poll question).
     
  11. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    The point with Masada (must go there one day) is the scholarly comment.
    Kenneth Atkinson, no "archaeological evidence that Masada's defenders committed mass suicide" exists.

    It's relevant to unpack such statements. This comes across as an attempt to sound academic, profound,
    revisionist and contrarian. Most people who believe the story of the last stand at Masada don't expect to
    find the remains of the last defenders, still with their knife wounds preserved. In fact there's no 'archaeological
    evidence' for Caesar's assassination, Alexander's final day or the remains of Nelson, compete with the bullet
    still in his back, bathed in brandy. It's enough to get the gist of what happened from historians. Saying 'there's
    no evidence' is often meant as a sly way of saying 'it never happened.' And that's an abuse.

    So yeah, science has its place, but some of it gets abused. "No evidence" doesn't mean what lots of people
    think it means. And this is a problem with our education.
     
  12. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Okay...I think I understand your point, to some degree.

    It's a point worth making. At the same time, it is worth questioning people on why they believe what they believe. Why do people believe Elazar Ben Yair was a hero, for example? This isn't purely about archaeological evidence, but about the scarcity of any evidence. And whilst most people who believe the story of the last stand might not expect to find the remains of the last defenders, that is pretty much EXACTLY what Professor Yigael Yadin was looking for back in the 60's, at a very high cost.

    People should be aware of why they believe things, and it's interesting to me in terms of the psychology involved. Why we accept some information and not other, about a topic we might be interested, or even invested in.

    Not quite true, but pretty close to true. Still, a lack of 'archeological' evidence is not the same as saying a 'lack of evidence'. There are multiple sources who either describe the assassination (eg. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus) or who refer to it (eg. Cicero). Do you think it's credible to suggest it didn't happen?

    There is almost no consensus on his final days. Anyone suggesting 'what happened' should realise this, and that their opinion is (at best) only loosely supportable by any evidence at all.

    Hmm...my history on Nelson is a little weaker. I have never looked into the story about his body being preserved in brandy (although I've heard the tall tale about the brandy all vanishing from the barrel during the trip home, suggesting the corpse of Nelson was thirsty).
    I'm also aware that there was a myth about the body being perfectly preserved, but that the surgeon had written to the Admiralty (I think?) to suggest it wasn't at all suitable for public viewing.

    Sorry...not sure what the controversy is on that particular one, although I'm interested in such things if you have time to waste and want to explain it to me.

    That might be a problem with our people, rather than our education. Not sure. Then again, I'm a former teacher, and some people I worked with had trouble with Grade 6 maths, so let's not pretend teachers are chosen for their academic rigour.
    Still, I'd close with the point that 'science', including branches like archaeology, sociology, etc, are far more aware of the 'facts' than common folk are. Which is exactly the same as every other branch of science (eg. astronomy) and always has been. Are you suggesting that with a better education system, people would truly understand the conclusions and nuance within the various sciences? That seems to fly in the face of my understanding of people.
     
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  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    That contradicts what god told everyone to do. He told everyone to be fruitful and multiply. Paul is the one who introduces this idea of celibacy and getting married if you have desires. That's basically just about everyone.
    And yet that is something god never promoted, and Jesus never taught it. God from day one, to animals and people, he said go forth and multiple. Disaster happens? Go forth and multiple. Global flood? Go forth and multiply. God also promised many descendants to Abraham. That can't happen if god puts celibacy over being fruitful and multiplying. Which clearly he doesn't because this idea celibacy getting someone closer to god is nowhere to be found until Paul. This is a direct contradiction of what the Bible commands earlier.
    Apologetics are the only way around this one. And even then, it's shoddy logic and basically dishonest and you have to omit one to uphold the other.
     
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  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Some have been known to take delight in the sinner/infedel being eternally punished by god. Sure, that's probably not what was going on in that picture, but those two religions have long been bitter enemies, and torturing and killing heretics is a traditional past time of both. And they go on rejoicing god's will is done.
     
  15. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Nah, just say'n we need to be careful with our knowledge, and wary of our 'scholars' and their
    agendas. There's tons of that I encounter in biblical studies. I grew up being told 'There's no
    evidence King David existed.' Only there is now, sort of. But the damage for many has been
    done - the bible becomes little more than a myth.
    Current ones include the population of biblical Israel (large) compared to 'archaeological'
    assessments. This has been upturned by studies in the Timna valley. But again, the damage
    is done.
    We look to 'scholars' now, not the bible.
    I try to talk to people about Genesis 1 and meet this brick wall of preconceived notions about
    the subject.
     
  16. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I would consider most of your profile stats to be improvements in moral understanding of people.
     
  17. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    But in doing so you are confirming my point. In terms of traditional morality,
    as expressed in religion, tribal, old rural and many immigrant's POV we are
    today less moral than we once were.
    I see our modern society as being largely TOXIC to children and much the
    same for many women who want commitment and children. As many migrants
    point out - Westerners are a lot harder and cynical than themselves.
     
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I'm more of a classic Warhammer kind of guy. I got a phat Lizard army lead by Lord Kroak in a cold blooded Temple Guard unit that is armed to the teeth! Ow yeah! :D
    And a ridiculous amount of Skinks too, followed by a couple nasty beasts like Kroxigors and some dino's. :D

    In my analogy though, the warhammer generals would have to be thinking that they are actually fighting an actual war, instead of playing a fantasy game. :)
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    It's a photoshopped cartoon.
    And you missed the point.
     
  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that quote by Dawkins.
    They are an accurate description of the character that is portrayed in the bible.
     
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