Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[CG Didymus]

What I'm hearing is more stuff you don't like and I'm not hearing what you do like. Off hand that should mean that your life's goal is complaining about other people. Please help me out to understand what you consider valid, and if your life's goal really is in fact complaining then we can simply go our separate ways.

As if you didn't evaluate the other religions. What didn't you like about Catholics? What didn't you like about Evangelistic/Born-Again Christianity? Why aren't you a Mormon? What don't you like about any sect of Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Islam and the rest? What don't you like about the Baha'i Faith? Then... What do you like about them? Why do you like the Baha'i Faith the best? And, since you do like the Baha'i Faith the best, then you must not have liked something about the others.

I don't like the Baha'i Faith concept of "progressive" revelation. I don't think it accurately describes how religions came to be and how religious thought evolved. Although I think it would be great to live in a world without weapons where people live in peace, still people needed weapons just to protect themselves from predators and to kill other animals for food. Then they also needed weapons to protect themselves from other humans.

How are the teachings of the Baha'i Faith going to change that? God's supposed laws against murder or anything else have prevented the behavior. How are the laws of the Baha'i Faith going to stop it? If not, then we won't have a peaceful world. Execute or imprison murderers... Burn arsons... Tatoo thieves and put them out of the city or town, fine adulterers and homosexuals... but will the behaviors ever stop?

In any large city where there are hundreds of Baha'is, can nine people really run and control and pass judgements fairly on all the Baha'is in their city? What if the whole city were Baha'is? How would you even hold feast? That's why I keep asking if there are places in the world that have a large number of Baha'is that are applying as many of the teachings as possible, and that it is actually working.

I knew some of the people from the Dialogue Magazine, and once the printed "A Modest Proposal", they got in trouble with the Baha'i administration and got shut down. There were things that some Baha'is didn't like about how the Baha'i Faith was doing things. They were stopped. Why? Because they didn't go through proper channels? But openly criticized the Baha'i Faith? Have people used proper channels and gotten anywhere?

Anyway, what I would like is if people in all religions would practice what they preach... love, humility, and all those goody-goody things. Of course, someone like me, would still not necessarily believe and complain about the weird teachings of most all religions, but I couldn't say anything bad about the way the religious people behave. But, since most don't practice what they preach, I complain about that too.

You people say you believe, then live it. Too many Christians, Baha'is and some others come off as spiritual know-it-alls... as if they have seen the light and the rest of us are blind. Be humble, be respectful, be joyous in your love for all people and you'll have my respect. But I'll still point out things in your religion I don't believe in and don't like.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes it is my opinion that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet who brings forth only bad fruit.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

What is the bad fruit? You said only bad fruit. Can you look at His work and actions and say they were all bad?

P.S. The fact that Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Christ and you do not 'believe' He was the return of Christ does not qualify as bad fruit.
If you could prove that He made a false claim that might qualify as bad fruit, but you cannot prove that, so it is only a personal opinion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes I don't think dying outside Jerusalem makes Baha'u'llah a false prophet.

But by not going to Jerusalem, how can he claim to be the Jewish Messiah? Did the man of sin do his thing? Was there a great tribulation? Did the battle of Armageddon happen?

And where was Jesus supposed to return to? To Persia? And then get sent as a prisoner to Palestine? But this man calling himself the "Glory of God" is supposed to also be the one promised in all the major religions. What was the Mahdi supposed to do... and where was he supposed to come from? Baha'is have that covered very well, since they evolved out of Shia Islam. But where was Maitreya and Kalki from Buddhism and Hinduism supposed to come from? And was there supposed to be two of them? The Bab and Baha'u'llah?

They've got a lot of proving to do. And they try to. But, for me, they don't have very good explanations. Oh, and about "fruit", Mormons, Scientology, any New Age religion, the Ahmadiyya... they all have good fruit. But I doubt Baha'is believe the things taught in any of those religious movements. Good fruit ain't enough. But it's not like Baha'is, or any other religious group have all good fruit. I'm sure they've got their share of some bad apples.

Oh, and I almost forgot, where does it say that when the "Christ" returns, he would teach that the manifestation known as Jesus, didn't really resurrect and there is no such spirit-being known as Satan. Maybe Baha'is are right. Maybe everything they teach is true. But then that makes what most Christians believe to be true, and what is said in the NT, false.

Of course, Baha'is try and get around that by saying Christians misinterpreted the Bible and NT and took things literal, that were meant to be taken symbolically. Really? Satan and the resurrection were meant to be taken symbolically? Maybe false... Maybe made up... But, to me, it sure seems like the NT teaches that Satan is real, and the resurrection really happened. So, if the NT is true and the Baha'i Faith is saying it is not literally true, then that's some pretty rotten fruit. And if the Baha'is are right, then the rotten fruit is on Christianity teaching for centuries, that those things are true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In any large city where there are hundreds of Baha'is, can nine people really run and control and pass judgements fairly on all the Baha'is in their city? What if the whole city were Baha'is? How would you even hold feast? That's why I keep asking if there are places in the world that have a large number of Baha'is that are applying as many of the teachings as possible, and that it is actually working.

The current Administrative Order is temporary, a transition. It is not known as to how it will evolve into what Bahha'u'llah offered.

So there will be the Universal House of Justice, which will be under Baháʼu'lláh's protection, that it would be freed of error, and that obedience to it would be obligatory.

There are the Secondary 'Houses of Justice' which are currently known as the National Spiritual Assemblies.

Then there will be the local Houses of Justice, which are to be established in each community, currently Local Spiritual Assemblies.

The large number of Baha'is in certain locations has already been addressed. They have committees and hold neighbourhood feast and functions. Every now and again they will meet as the entire group together at an appropriate sized venue.

Great thing is, it's flexible and it will happen as the needs of the age arise.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

So there will be the Universal House of Justice, which will be under Baháʼu'lláh's protection, that it would be freed of error, and that obedience to it would be obligatory.

The Baha'i Universal House of Justice free from error? It has already made errors in my view such as suppressing the allegedly holy writings.

How can a person investigate the truth independently when a vast amount of truth about the Babi and Baha'i writings is hidden behind the veil of the Persian and Arabic tongue? In my view unless they have the capacity of fluently acquiring these languages (which many of us do not possess the time for) they simply can't.

 

[Brian2]

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

What is the bad fruit? You said only bad fruit. Can you look at His work and actions and say they were all bad?

P.S. The fact that Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Christ and you do not 'believe' He was the return of Christ does not qualify as bad fruit.
If you could prove that He made a false claim that might qualify as bad fruit, but you cannot prove that, so it is only a personal opinion.

All Baha'is I have spoken to have to deny the Bible in order to be Baha'i.

 

[Brian2]

But by not going to Jerusalem, how can he claim to be the Jewish Messiah? Did the man of sin do his thing? Was there a great tribulation? Did the battle of Armageddon happen?

And where was Jesus supposed to return to? To Persia? And then get sent as a prisoner to Palestine? But this man calling himself the "Glory of God" is supposed to also be the one promised in all the major religions. What was the Mahdi supposed to do... and where was he supposed to come from? Baha'is have that covered very well, since they evolved out of Shia Islam. But where was Maitreya and Kalki from Buddhism and Hinduism supposed to come from? And was there supposed to be two of them? The Bab and Baha'u'llah?

They've got a lot of proving to do. And they try to. But, for me, they don't have very good explanations. Oh, and about "fruit", Mormons, Scientology, any New Age religion, the Ahmadiyya... they all have good fruit. But I doubt Baha'is believe the things taught in any of those religious movements. Good fruit ain't enough. But it's not like Baha'is, or any other religious group have all good fruit. I'm sure they've got their share of some bad apples.

Oh, and I almost forgot, where does it say that when the "Christ" returns, he would teach that the manifestation known as Jesus, didn't really resurrect and there is no such spirit-being known as Satan. Maybe Baha'is are right. Maybe everything they teach is true. But then that makes what most Christians believe to be true, and what is said in the NT, false.

Of course, Baha'is try and get around that by saying Christians misinterpreted the Bible and NT and took things literal, that were meant to be taken symbolically. Really? Satan and the resurrection were meant to be taken symbolically? Maybe false... Maybe made up... But, to me, it sure seems like the NT teaches that Satan is real, and the resurrection really happened. So, if the NT is true and the Baha'i Faith is saying it is not literally true, then that's some pretty rotten fruit. And if the Baha'is are right, then the rotten fruit is on Christianity teaching for centuries, that those things are true.

It's true that Baha'u'llah did not do the works that Jesus and the OT said He would do when He returns.
It's also true that Baha'u'llah did not come in the manner described for the return of the Messiah.
It's also true that Baha'is have to deny what Jesus said and what is written in the NT and OT and teach that Christian teachings are false.

 

[Trailblazer]

And where was Jesus supposed to return to? To Persia?

Jesus was not supposed to return to earth at all, not according to Jesus, only according to Christians, since they misinterpreted the New Testament verses that refer to the return of Christ, so they believed that these verses were referring to the same man Jesus.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Christ would return to Elam, not to Jerusalem, as Christians believe.

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

Oh, and I almost forgot, where does it say that when the "Christ" returns, he would teach that the manifestation known as Jesus, didn't really resurrect and there is no such spirit-being known as Satan.

The Bible does not say that because the Bible was written for another age, not for this age, and people who were living in that age were not ready to hear all truth during that age.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Maybe Baha'is are right. Maybe everything they teach is true. But then that makes what most Christians believe to be true, and what is said in the NT, false.

It certainly would make the Christian interpretation of certain verses in the the NT false, making what they believe about certain things false.

So, if the NT is true and the Baha'i Faith is saying it is not literally true, then that's some pretty rotten fruit. And if the Baha'is are right, then the rotten fruit is on Christianity teaching for centuries, that those things are true.

The good news is that you have free will so you can choose which one to believe, or to believe neither one. The clock is ticking.

 

[Trailblazer]

All Baha'is I have spoken to have to deny the Bible in order to be Baha'i.

No, we do not have to deny the Bible. We only have to deny the Christian interpretation of the Bible, which we believe to be false.

“Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets, pp. 25-30

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Baha'i Universal House of Justice free from error? It has already made errors in my view such as suppressing the allegedly holy writings.

How can a person investigate the truth independently when a vast amount of truth about the Babi and Baha'i writings is hidden behind the veil of the Persian and Arabic tongue? In my view unless they have the capacity of fluently acquiring these languages (which many of us do not possess the time for) they simply can't.

Utter nonsense. Plain and simple.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All Baha'is I have spoken to have to deny the Bible in order to be Baha'i.

More utter nonsense. Plain and simple.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my view unless they have the capacity of fluently acquiring these languages (which many of us do not possess the time for) they simply can't.

There is enough material translated to keep an English speaking person occupied for a lifetime.

There is so many pearls of understandings in each of the translated writings to keep a person captivated for eternity.

There is no excuses, eventually we will say to our own selves, strange how our own lack of motivation to pursue the truth for our own selves, becomes the fault of others.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How can a person investigate the truth independently when a vast amount of truth about the Babi and Baha'i writings is hidden behind the veil of the Persian and Arabic tongue?

I will give you a list of books that answer all a human could ever currently want to know. ( I say currently, as many would think the unity of all the universe is a bit out there, but it is already written, there is people on other planets)

One really only needs two books.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, and
The Kitáb-i-Íqan.

To fathom the importance of this Faith.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts.

To understand the History

The Dawnbreakers.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I will give you a list of books that answer all a human could ever currently want to know. ( I say currently, as many would think the unity of all the universe is a bit out there, but it is already written, there is people on other planets)

One really only needs two books.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, and
The Kitáb-i-Íqan.

To fathom the importance of this Faith.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts.

To understand the History

The Dawnbreakers.

Regards Tony

I disagree, for one because I and others want to know more and for two because one needs all the facts to make a fully informed decision in my view.

 

[blü 2]

People may judge for themselves. whether or not Baha'u'llah is a true or false Prophet.

On 9 May 1892, Bahá'u'lláh contracted a slight fever which grew steadily over the following days, abated, and then finally resulted in his death on 29 May 1892 (Dhu'l Qa'dah 2, 1309 AH). He was buried in the shrine located next to the Mansion of Bahjí.)
Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia
Wikipedia › wiki › Bahá'u'lláh

Baha'u'llah died at Acre in Israel, and was buried in the shrine located next to the Mansion of Bahji, which is located in Acre in Israel, which is about 200 miles away from Jerusalem.
Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia
Wikipedia › wiki › Shrine_of_Bahá'u'lláh
The Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh, located in Bahjí near Acre, Israel, is the most holy ... It contains the remains of Bahá'u'lláh and is near the spot where he died in the Mansion of Bahjí.

This being about 200 miles away from Jerusalem.


Notice what Christ Jesus had to say about Jerusalem in the book of Luke 13:33--" Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem"
This meaning that no prophet shall die outside of Jerusalem.

Now as for Baha'u'llah dieing 200 miles away from Jerusalem, Christ Jesus thereby proving Baha'u'llah is a false prophet.

The Prophets of God, either died a natural death or was stone to death by people in Jerusalem.

But here we find Baha'u'llah, died On 9 May 1892, Bahá'u'lláh contracted a slight fever which grew steadily over the following days, abated, and then finally resulted in his death on 29 May 1892.

So it is that Baha'u'llah didn't die a natural death, as in dieing of old age, But by contracted a slight fever which grew steadily over the following days, which caused his death on May 29,1892.

But yet Christ Jesus has said in Luke 13:34--"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

34-- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not"

So we find the Prophets of Gods died at Jerusalem, at the hands of the people in Jerusalem or by a natural death of old age.

Where as Baha'u'llah died by a fever that took his life 200 miles outside of Jerusalem.

So Baha'u'llah didn't die by a natural death of old age or by the hands of people in Jerusalem, But by a fever. As there were no prophets of Gods that ever died by any diseases.

But by a natural death of old age or at the hands of people in Jerusalem.

Which again proves Baha'u'llah as a false prophet.

For Christ Jesus did say in Luke 13:33--"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem"

That being outside of Jerusalem, which puts Baha'u'llah dieing 200 miles away from Jerusalem as a false prophet.

His followers (as I understand it) regard him as a prophet, someone with knowledge and authority about a particular religious point of view.

Given there are alternatives, no person acclaimed a prophet by Group A is more or less prophetable than someone acclaimed a prophet by Group B. Although this is self-evident, further affirmation is found in the frequency by which certain groups warn against "false prophets" ie views about religion different to their own.

So it seems to me Baha'u'llah is at least as entitled to prophet status as anyone else in the industry.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I disagree, for one because I and others want to know more and for two because one needs all the facts to make a fully informed decision in my view.

My wife read this prayer an became a Baha'i on the spot.

"O God! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

There is a great lesson in that statement, especially when we consider Faith in God is a gift.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

My wife read this prayer an became a Baha'i on the spot.

"O God! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

There is a great lesson in that statement, especially when we consider Faith in God is a gift.

Regards Tony

In my view that's not making a *fully informed* decision. It is simply hearing some words that resonate with the person after which having heard what they wanted to hear assume that the originator of the quote could say no wrong without checking all their works to make sure as I see it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my view that's not making a *fully informed* decision. It is simply hearing some words that resonate with the person after which having heard what they wanted to hear assume that the originator of the quote could say no wrong without checking all their works to make sure as I see it.

Everything needed is in that prayer. There is wisdom in that advice, as to how the gift requires our heart to connect.

My opinions were much like yours of her decision. It took me many years to see the gift My wife had shared with me by embracing that prayer on that day.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I will give you a list of books that answer all a human could ever currently want to know. ( I say currently, as many would think the unity of all the universe is a bit out there, but it is already written, there is people on other planets)

One really only needs two books.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, and
The Kitáb-i-Íqan.

To fathom the importance of this Faith.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts.

To understand the History

The Dawnbreakers.

Regards Tony

I do believe that you, as a Baha'i, find truth and God in the writings and teachings of the Baha'i Faith. But I also believe that other people get the same thing out of the teachings of their religion. And all those teachings from the various religions have significant differences.

Therefore, a Born-Again Christian is not going to find the teachings of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, the Baha'i Faith or even some of the other Christian sects compatible with their Born-Again Christian beliefs.

A few of the things that contradict those Christian beliefs are found in one of those books, The Kitáb-i-Íqan. What is said about Noah is not found in the Bible. As I've said several times, the Baha'i belief that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed also contradicts the Bible. And what the Baha'is believe about Satan and the resurrection of Jesus contradicts the NT.

I know that a Baha'i can say, and really believe, that they believe in Jesus, the Bible and Christianity and all the other Holy Books and all the other religions, but do they really? Blaming the contradictions on misinterpretations by taking things literal when they were meant to be symbolic works for Baha'is. But for a believer in any of those other religions, it is denying their Scriptures and denying that their religion is teaching the truth.

In essence, that leaves only one religion as being true. What I don't understand is how some Baha'is, maybe most of them, don't see that. They seem to really think that they are accepting of all the other religions. Now I can see how Baha'is are accepting of all people from any of the other religions. But which religion doesn't do that? If a person wants to dump their old beliefs and take on the beliefs of another religion, I'm sure that's fine with any religion.

And, to me, that's all Baha'is are really doing. They are saying, at best, at some point in the past all the other religions were true, but not anymore. They have all had their day and have become obsolete, corrupted and their Scriptures misinterpreted. Sure, Baha'is from all religions and all places are in unity and are as one family. But what has made them "one" is getting rid of their old religious beliefs.

If it works for you, fine. But, for me, Baha'is are teaching that all the other religions no longer have the truth and are wrong.... while, at the same time, teaching that all religions are one.

 

[CG Didymus]

Everything needed is in that prayer. There is wisdom in that advice, as to how the gift requires our heart to connect.

My opinions were much like yours of her decision. It took me many years to see the gift My wife had shared with me by embracing that prayer on that day.

Regards Tony

There are spiritual people I call "Golden Rule" kind of people. They treat everyone, no matter where they're from or what they believe, with love and kindness. Those people don't get bogged down with figuring out the details. And worrying about which religion has the right beliefs. Liberal people in any religion tend to be like that. The Baha'is I knew and liked and could get along with were on the liberal side.

What I think is tough for Baha'is, is to be like those "Golden Rule" and love-everybody type of people, and then to also be a strict follower of all that the Baha'i Faith teaches and requires of its people. Sometimes it's getting too much into the details and a strict belief of a person's religion that seems to take away that heart stuff. Too many Baha'is seem no different than those Christians that are doctrine and dogma preachers, instead of having that open and loving heart. Are the details and beliefs of the religion more important than having that loving spirit?