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Iraq Palestinians head to Iceland

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
at the risk of being sarcistic, but no room in the ummah?

Going back to the OP, let's answer this question before going off-topic into the history of Palestine because i'm planning to have other topics for these other major cases.


Why don't Arabs welcome their Palestinian Arab brothers?

To accept compulsory population transfer in principle would set a dangerous precedent for international relations, and many nations would use such an excuse to cleanse themselves from "unwanted minorities". In other words, if it is accepted in principle that one can transfer and dispossess the Palestinian people so that Jews can have a "Jewish state," then
Why would it be unacceptable to "transfer" 10 million Mexican Americans to Mexico? or
To "transfer" a million Kosovan Albanians to Albania?, or
Even to "transfer" 6 million American Jews to the "Jewish state"?
Ironically, Serbia, under Milosevic's leadership in 1999, used a similar argument to cleanse itself from its "unwanted Albanian minority", (of course under the pretext that Kosovo was central to Serbia's ancient heritage and religious past).

Consequently, the act of compulsory population transfer (Ethnic Cleansing) has been accepted internationally as a war crime, and on that basis both Serbia and Iraq were subjected to international condemnations, and U.N. resolutions were enforced by military action to stop and reverse these war crimes.

For the moment, let's assume that the above argument are nonsense to the average Israeli or Zionist. Let us analyze why the integration of Palestinian refugees into neighboring host countries is not viable for the following economic and political reasons:

Economic reasons

It should be emphasized that 75% of the new Jewish immigrants to Israel, after the 1948 war, operated looted Palestinians houses, farms, cars, truck, banks, and the infrastructure resource such as water networks, the power grids, railroads, airports, wells, the telegraph network, and the schools, roads, and ports.

In other words, Israel has had the looted Palestinian capital as collateral, German compensation money for war crimes committed during WW II, and over 120 billion dollars in American taxpayers' money to help settle the new Jewish immigrants. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees and their corresponding host countries had no such good fortune. If Palestinians are to be helped to settle someone else's country, they have to take somebody else's property, which is unfair and unjust to others.

From an economical standpoint, the biggest economic boost the "Jewish State" had was the looted and stolen Palestinian properties.

For a second, let's assume that such repatriation is possible in the host countries, and calculate the cost of such repatriation. For example, let's assume that we need to provide a reasonable health care insurance (not government subsidized) for each Palestinian refugee in Jordan (which hosts close to 3 million Palestinian refugees), and let us also assume that such insurance costs a $100/month per refugee. So the total yearly cost of providing health care insurance to all refugees in Jordan is at least 3.6 billion dollars = $100 * 12 months * 3 million refugees. Note that we have not yet analyzed the costs of providing infrastructure services, i.e. roads, water networks, power grids, education, transportations, ports, airports, ...etc. While contemplating these staggering numbers, keep in mind that the annual budget for the Jordanian government is little over 6 billion dollars, compared to 53 billion dollar for Israel.

While the average Jordanian citizen has some kind of collateral (such as land, real state, ... etc. ) to support his or her future well being, the average Palestinian refugee has nothing but his or her tent as collateral, and even the tent belongs to the United Nations. Consequently, the net worth (in economic terms) of the average Palestinian is almost nil, which negatively impacts tax revenues in the host countries. In fact, the huge number of refugees stifled economic growth in these host countries for several decades-since many essential services had to be diverted to help the refugees.

Ironically, the absence of the Palestinian economic base has motivated the average Palestinian to invest in his or her intellectual capital. It's really amazing how many Palestinians live the lives of many Jews in the past. In general, Europeans used to restrict land purchases by their Jewish citizens, which in return motivated many Jews to invest in their intellectual capital.

For the moment assume that the above economic formula is nonsense to the average Israeli or Zionist, then let's ask the following questions:

If it's easy for the host Arab countries to integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic and social structure, then why after three decades of Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has Israel been unable to improve the lives of the Palestinian refugees under its direct control?

If it's easy for the host countries to integrate the refugees (despite their limited resources), then surely it should be much easier for Israel to do so?

Paradoxically, many Palestinian refugees' economic situation has actually worsened under Israeli occupation, and if it were not for United Nations' food rations, many refugees would have starved by now! In fact, malnutrition among Palestinian Children in the occupied West Bank and the occupied Gaza Strip has increased by 1600% since September of 2000.

It's unfair to claim that many Arab countries did not integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic, social, and even political structures. Out of the 5.9 million Palestinian refugees, there are 3.5 million refugees who still live in refugee camps (usually known as "registered refugees"). So despite all of the above obstacles, some 2 million Palestinian refugees (almost half the number of the Israeli Jews) are already integrated into the host countries' economic, political, and social structures.
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Political Reasons
For the above economic reasons, Palestinian refugees were obliged to compete for all available resources in the host countries and continue to do so. The average Palestinian (ironically, like many Jews in the West) knows that he or she has to work twice as hard as the local worker just to keep his or her job. On average, Palestinians (for economic and political reasons) are not welcomed in the host countries, and that generates anti-Palestinian feeling. For instance, take the discriminatory practices of the Lebanese government where Palestinians are excluded from 73 job types, such engineering, health care, financing, ... etc.


Although this behavior is deplorable, it is a natural reaction by any state to any external threat to its resources, and this is a common experience among Jews when they emigrate to the "Jewish state". It should be noted that it is still a tense situation between Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and African Israeli Jews, and the blood of the latter was not welcomed in Israeli blood banks for a very long time.

It should be noted that even if the Palestinian refugees are integrated into the host countries, that won't stop Palestinians from demanding their right to return to their homes in Israel. Palestinians are extremely proud of their national identity, and continuously assert their unique cultural and political differences at the earliest possible opportunity. This deep sense of nationalism is widely shared most Palestinians, especially among the affluent families, who are already integrated in Western and Arab societies, i.e. in the US, Europe, Canada, ... etc. Actually, many of them still marry from the same indigenous localities, and maintain their unique dresses, folklore, and accents.


The major obstacle that many Israelis and Zionists have in their dealings with Palestinians is that they think that 8.5 million Palestinians have no national rights, such as the right of self determination. Paradoxically, they believe that 4.5 million Jews in Israel have the right of self determination! From the start, the struggle between Zionism and the Palestinian people was a struggle between two distinct and conflicting nationalistic movements.

Most, if not all, host countries are hesitant to grant political rights (such as the right to vote) to non-citizens, especially if the "newcomers" could overnight change the political landscape. This political problem was the case in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria soon after the 1948 war. For example, Jordan's citizens became (overnight) a minority in their own country. To ask the average Jordanian to accept this situation on a permanent basis, without anything in return, is to create a "political time bomb". Unfortunately, this "political time bomb" has already exploded in Jordan and Lebanon, and its after shocks are still felt today.

There is no question of the fact that some political movements have benefited politically and economically from not integrating the Palestinian refugees. We agree that all host countries used (and will continue to use) the refugees as a tool to collect international aid and bribes. We also concur that suppressing Palestinians makes political and economic sense to some regional leaders. On the other hand, it's not fair to point the finger of blame at the host countries for not solving a problem that Israel has created. By blocking the Palestinian refugees' return to their homes, farms, and businesses, Israel has made this problem persist and fester for many generations, and it has to put up the lion's share of the effort needed to solve it.


Why don't Arabs welcome their Palestinian Arab brothers?
 
Oh really? i guess we can't help it that some people are willing to give up their culture. It's really naive to believe that one have to give up his/her culture in order to live in another.
I agree wholeheartedly. But, to put things into perspective, what do you think would happen to an Icelander who tried to immigrate to the Middle East while keeping her culture?
 

.lava

Veteran Member
from desert to Iceland, that's a big change.

i would like to tell friends one thing. i am a Muslim because i chosed to be. if i wear modesty it is not because of my culture. if it was not then i would be considered as dishonest. so yes, if a person did not have chance to know himself, he might turn into someone else just by changing location. i consider that as lack of personality. if people prefer to hold onto their religion they do it for God, not for Iceland, not for Iraq. it is not impossible to keep on being who you are and add good things to yourself from a new culture.

look at New York, there are any kind of culture and people, even with their national clothing...they are together.

.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Sorry for being late in my reply. Sometimes i need to find a good time for me to reply on these long topics to really put some valuable information, and that can't happen when i come for a quick visit. I finally got a break from school for 10 days. Awesome! :D

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So? just because it was part of Othman Empire that would make it less than a country? I really don't understand what are trying to say here.
I am saying it was not a country it was a administrative area that encompassed all the areas of the levant as one
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You didn't see the maps?

yes i am wondering which ones you are looking at ? are you looking at maps from Ottoman times? or after the formation of Jordan and Syrria,Iraq etc

It also shows countries after Othman empire time and Syria, Jordan, and other countries are there in the map beside Palestine.


the clue here is "AFTER Ottoman" times it was only after Ottoman times that the whole area became seperate countries the map of 1916 shows the whole area as Syrria



(why do some pictures post OK then others dont)
 
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kai

ragamuffin
But ther areas were well known to be separate countries even before the Othman Empire catches them. The area of Syria and Jordan were called Bilad Al-sham, which means land of Sham, and then there was Palestine next to it. I really don't understand your reasoning. You are talking as if the entire area was just scatered cities without any separate identity which can separates them. The West didn't make up these places, the people were there and the countries were there as well even though they were under the othmanic empire.


i cant seem to post maps so heres the link

a map from 1481 to 1683 shows the whole area as Syrria


The Maps of Ottoman Empire
 

kai

ragamuffin
Can you please give me sources "links" for these claims?


i will try and track these down to their source ,they can all be found on wiki but i hesitate to post a source with any bias. (unlikehttp://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html) i wouldnt like to use an Israeli source as i am not favouring anyone here just looking at history, having said that they all have an origin in the statement.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree wholeheartedly. But, to put things into perspective, what do you think would happen to an Icelander who tried to immigrate to the Middle East while keeping her culture?

They will start learning some arabic, and might enjoy drinking and eating local foods and drinks. They wil start learning the culture and respect it, but they will not lose their identity and melt into the society, but his/her children might partially do, because they will have a very rich life, having two different rich culture to be proud of without letting that interfer with the peace between them and their society.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the clue here is "AFTER Ottoman" times it was only after Ottoman times that the whole area became seperate countries the map of 1916 shows the whole area as Syrria



(why do some pictures post OK then others dont)

We definitely can talk about this in the other thread.

Why don't Arabs welcome their Palestinian Arab brothers?

what is that some kind of blog? or is it someones post? what kind of site is that

It's what it's ..

Mission Statement

i will try and track these down to their source ,they can all be found on wiki but i hesitate to post a source with any bias. (unlikehttp://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html) i wouldnt like to use an Israeli source as i am not favouring anyone here just looking at history, having said that they all have an origin in the statement.

What do you mean?
 

kai

ragamuffin
So if the causes of Zionism had not risen, meaning European anti-Semitism, then Palestinian nationalism might not have evolved into what it is today. It's worth noting that the Palestinian people, prior to WW I, always identified themselves as being part of "The Great Syria" (Suriyya al-Kubra), however, that drastically changed when Britain intended to turn Palestine into a "Jewish National Home", see the Balfour Declaration for more details.

Isn't it true that Palestinians never had either a state, nor any distinct culture or language of their own?





the site is biased it places the word "Palestinian" in brackets in most places before the word Arab.

see below for examples:

In 1936, Moshe Sharett spoke in a similar vein:
ZionistFAQ.gif

"Fear is the main factor in [Palestinian] Arab politics. . . . There is no Arab who is not harmed by Jews' entry into Palestine." (Righteous Victims, p.136)





But Ben-Gurion set limits. The Palestinian people were incapable by themselves of developing Palestine, and they had no right to stand in the way of the Jews. He argued in 1918, that Jews' rights sprang not only from the past, but also from the future. In 1924 he declared:
"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders." In 1928 he pronounced that "the [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to close the country to us [Jews]. What right do they have to the Negev desert, which is uninhabited?"; and in 1930, "The [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to the Jordan river, and no right to prevent the construction of a power plant [by a Jewish concern]. They have a right only to that which they have created and to their homes." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 38)​




it rewrites history and plants the word (Palestinian) beside the word Arab to make a distinction that isnt there , i claim that before the state of Israel there was no difference in an Arab living in East Jerusalem and an Arab living in the west bank and an Arab living in Aqaba ,indeed after the formation of Israel there still wasnt any difference because they were all Jordanian untill 1967

 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But Ben-Gurion set limits. The Palestinian people were incapable by themselves of developing Palestine, and they had no right to stand in the way of the Jews. He argued in 1918, that Jews' rights sprang not only from the past, but also from the future. In 1924 he declared:

"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders." In 1928 he pronounced that "the [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to close the country to us [Jews]. What right do they have to the Negev desert, which is uninhabited?"; and in 1930, "The [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to the Jordan river, and no right to prevent the construction of a power plant [by a Jewish concern]. They have a right only to that which they have created and to their homes." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 38)​





it rewrites history and plants the word (Palestinian) beside the word Arab to make a distinction that isnt there , i claim that before the state of Israel there was no difference in an Arab living in East Jerusalem and an Arab living in the west bank and an Arab living in Aqaba ,indeed after the formation of Israel there still wasnt any difference because they were all Jordanian untill 1967


They do that with Jews as well. Anyhow, that's off-topic. Your topic is about the refugees, i don't undertand how it was converted into proving whether palestinians do exist or not. If you want to talk about that please come here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...1-palestine-clearing-up-dust.html#post1285786

Don't be afraid, i won't bite. :D
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
So if the causes of Zionism had not risen, meaning European anti-Semitism, then Palestinian nationalism might not have evolved into what it is today. It's worth noting that the Palestinian people, prior to WW I, always identified themselves as being part of "The Great Syria" (Suriyya al-Kubra), however, that drastically changed when Britain intended to turn Palestine into a "Jewish National Home", see the Balfour Declaration for more details.

Isn't it true that Palestinians never had either a state, nor any distinct culture or language of their own?





the site is biased it places the word "Palestinian" in brackets in most places before the word Arab.

see below for examples:

In 1936, Moshe Sharett spoke in a similar vein:
ZionistFAQ.gif

"Fear is the main factor in [Palestinian] Arab politics. . . . There is no Arab who is not harmed by Jews' entry into Palestine." (Righteous Victims, p.136)





But Ben-Gurion set limits. The Palestinian people were incapable by themselves of developing Palestine, and they had no right to stand in the way of the Jews. He argued in 1918, that Jews' rights sprang not only from the past, but also from the future. In 1924 he declared:

"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders." In 1928 he pronounced that "the [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to close the country to us [Jews]. What right do they have to the Negev desert, which is uninhabited?"; and in 1930, "The [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to the Jordan river, and no right to prevent the construction of a power plant [by a Jewish concern]. They have a right only to that which they have created and to their homes." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 38)​





it rewrites history and plants the word (Palestinian) beside the word Arab to make a distinction that isnt there , i claim that before the state of Israel there was no difference in an Arab living in East Jerusalem and an Arab living in the west bank and an Arab living in Aqaba ,indeed after the formation of Israel there still wasnt any difference because they were all Jordanian untill 1967

+++++++++++++++++++++

Kai, I agree with you in everything.

Ben :yes:
 
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