Iranian lesbian denied asylum by Britain.

[kai]

That is the link Caladan already gave several pages ago, which spawned most of this discussion.

And as it quite clearly states:
Before delving deep into the question of female circumcision, we would like to make it clear that "female circumcision" means removing the prepuce of the clitoris, not the clitoris itself.

Something Caladan and Darkness obviously didn't read, as they rushed to fabricate the claim I supposedly said it's ok to incise the clitoris.



Then your position is at least consistent. Unlike the other mindless sheeple who rant and rave about the hysteria of FGM (and it's supposed link to Islam), whilst most likely having no problem with Jews doing the same to boys.

lets get one thing straight i dont care what they are slicing or cutting off children i am against it.

 

[Autodidact]

It occurs, whether you wish to accept it or not. Contrary to the commonly peddled line, people are not "born gay", it's simply an act they choose to commit.

Contrary to your own conceit, you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Obviously if they are around others committing the same act, then they're more likely to commit it

Really? So if you hang around gay people, would you be more likely to have gay sex?

. Doesn't mean everyone who knows a person who commits said acts would commit them also, but it is an act which is spread in such a way.

Do you find it difficult to keep up an unbroken chain of lies and false information, or does it come naturally to you?

Just like smoking, if kids are around other kids who smoke, they're more likely to smoke. Doesn't mean they must smoke, but there's more of a chance.

Baloney.

btw, what's the gayest place in the world?

Saudi Arabia.

 

[Autodidact]

If you mean a genetic disposition, then I highly doubt that. One might also have a genetic disposition to be violent, to be a drug addict, an alcoholic, commit infidelity etc. Those things are acts though, and committing them is a choice, not something you're born with.

Or to compose beautiful music, or receive prophecy, or excel at mathematics. Now I wonder why, whenever Abu needs to compare homosexuality to something, he always chooses horrible things?

People who commit these acts are not healthy, so that goes without saying.

Lie.

[qutoe]It is an act, and it is a bad act (habit).[/quote] Primarily, and more than anything else, it's a predisposition to find love, intimacy and sex with a person of the same sex. As a result of that predisposition, which is not chosen, a gay person may choose to have same sex relationships which include sex, which is a choice. There is nothing wrong with such a choice, and the only thing that's bad is your disgusting bigotry.

It's a choice and people choose to commit those acts.

Yes, your bigotry and prejudice is a choice, and you choose to exhibit your horrible immorality for all to see.

Nobody is born committing such acts, it's something they decide to do at some point in their lives.

Nobody is born a bigot, it's something they decide to become at some point in their lives.

Whether it's encouraged by whispers from the evil one, or by a genetic disposition, does not alter the fact it's an act and a choice.

Only an evil source could cause such evil thoughts and lies.

btw, Abu's post provides a neat illustration of how bigotry and superstition often go hand in hand.

 

[Autodidact]

If you lived in a society where they're allowed to freely practice their abomination, you'd know why I said this. They go around trying to recruit innocent young teenagers into their despicable way of life.

So apparently lying and spreading hatred are Islamic then? Good to know.

 

[Autodidact]

But isn't sodomy acts worse than heterosexual adultery from the Islamic view?
So if there are no babies involved, you think it's not wrong and not harmful in that case? Again, what if it was protected intercourse?
I didn't ask you about the Islamic verdict. You are now justifying why a certain act is wrong because it's harmful. I asked you, why would incest be wrong based on the harm justification, if one of the partners was infertile or they took protective measures?

One of the weirdest thing about homophobes is their obsession with sex. As soon as someone says "lesbian," (the subject of this thread) their dirty minds immediately go to other people's sex lives. Lesbianism and homosexuality are no more about sex than heterosexuality is. Is your relationship nothing but sex? A lesbian is a woman whose primary romantic interest is in other women, that's all. She may or may not have any sex. If she does, she does so in a relationship with another woman. There is nothing adulterous or evil about it. It's just a different form of loving--that's all.

Is there something about Islam that makes you all so dirty-minded, or is it just you?

 

[Autodidact]

80. And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)?
81. "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)."
82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: "Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!"
83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment). (Surah Al-Araf)

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “Allah curses the one who does the actions of the people of Lut” repeating it three times.

He said in another Hadith: “If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers”.
Another Hadith: "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses”.

As I said more than one time here, the specified penalty is controversial between the scholars.

Read more: IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
​

Wow, that's a really dumb religion you got there. What did you say it was called?

 

[Darkness]

These verses are talking about a particular time when these groups where enemies to Islam, not in general, not that in general the jews are our enemies, or that the pagans are our enemies. Some people interpret it that way to fit their screwed up intentions and desires. Every thinking muslim who have studied Islam knows this.

The Quran is clear for anybody who studies it with honesty, and doesn't let his own hatred and desires influence the outcome. There is true Islam and false Islam. Hadiths like the one talking about circumcision is not strong sourced as far as i know. We don't follow any Hadith. These incidents are due to ignorance and backward thinking, that's why it happens in messed up places. We had TV campaigns against circumcision here in Egypt.

As for the scholar's opinion. Like it have been said they are not superhuman, they all make mistakes. Also, it is his job to explain each Hadith that is available, that doesn't mean that he agrees with it, or encourage people to follow it, it means he is giving an explanation for it. If he is encouraging people to follow it, it would mean he is wrong. Just like anybody could do mistakes in his job, just because this is his job doesn't mean he can't make mistakes in it.

I am thrilled that you interpret it in that manner. I still have to read the Qur'an from front to back and come to my own interpretation of its words. The same goes for Judaism and Christianity, in that I believe each of the Abrahamic religions has its own incendiary language. You may interpret it in a peaceful way, because you have a moral compass, but I think using that sort of incendiary language is fuel for the poor, the destitute and the hopeless to find meaning in violence. To balance my statements out and perhaps utilise some self-criticism, I believe that everything I said about incendiary language could also apply to a secular belief system, such as Marxism. The idea of Marxism, that the mere act of owning a business privately is an egregious affront to human dignity, is ripe for violent methods. And Marxism certainly has to pay its dues for all the violence caused worldwide.

 

[Autodidact]

I still don't understand the irrationality of the view of homosexuality being some sort of bad disease that's corrupting everything. Yet it is believed even when no evidence to support it is presented.

You can always tell if someone is a fundamental theist, if they project a bizarre irrational hatred or fear of homosexuality.

It's like: Homosexuality is wrong, because it just is!!! (and God said so)

It's the difference between a morality based on logic, compassion, equality and honesty, and a morality based on an arbitrary set of ancient purity taboos.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not sure wether or not this is addressed to all of us who view homosexuality as wrong or not, so i'll clarify few things just in case.

I don't see it as something that corrupts society in itself, it is also not a disease, because as i understand diseases are harmful to the person, which is not the case here, or at least haven't been proved so until now, so i can't call it a disease. I view these urges as something natural, and something that anybody is subject to have, even if he/she are generally heterosexuals.

The only thing is, that i believe in God, and i believe in the Quran, which prohibits this. So, i believe that God expects us to control these urges. If you don't or can't, i don't believe you should be punished. I only look at it as a sin like my religion teaches.

There's something I don't understand, Badran. You told me that you took a nuetral, unbiased look at Islam, decided that it's rules made sense, so you remained a Muslim. Here we have a rule that makes no sense and in fact creates harm, don't you agree?

 

[Autodidact]

So the only thing which is making you see Homosexuality as a "sin" is the Koran? If so, which verse (or text) is it which states that Homosexuality is so? My apoligies if this has already been asked but I've not read through this entire thread.

And the Hadiths.

 

[Autodidact]

These two things have nothing to do with Islam at all.

They are practised by ignorant Muslims, Christians, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs etc. Basically people from all religions and cultures. The consistent factor being that it's amongst ignorant uneducated people.

What baloney! Right, they have nothing to do with Islam. It's wild coincidence that the more Muslim a country is, the more these things happen, that they happen in most Muslim countries, that the people who do them always say they're doing them because of Islam, and Islamic governments refuse to take action against them. Right.

 

[Badran]

There's something I don't understand, Badran. You told me that you took a nuetral, unbiased look at Islam, decided that it's rules made sense, so you remained a Muslim. Here we have a rule that makes no sense and in fact creates harm, don't you agree?

I understand what you are saying. The rule as i understood it, would have never caused anybody any harm, if they took it as it is, because it doesn't include most of the things you here and the things you see people do, claiming that they are doing it on the behalf of Islam. When i looked at the rule, there where two options as to why this might be considered a sin, the procreation thing, or simply like this, that God is the maker, he has rules that we should follow. Some of them are for reasons concerned with our practical life, and some concerned with him alone. This is a concept that i accepted, that if indeed there is a god, i can understand that i will do things for him, and that there are things that i will not do just for him too. This rule here for me, is just that God has made the world, two genders, his order is that these two genders mate. Just like we are supposed to pray for him, and do certain things just for him. If we don't do that, we have sinned. People have been discriminative against homosexuals all over the world, and in different ways, for different reasons.

 

[Darkness]

I understand what you are saying. The rule as i understood it, would have never caused anybody any harm, if they took it as it is, because it doesn't include most of the things you here and the things you see people do, claiming that they are doing it on the behalf of Islam. When i looked at the rule, there where two options as to why this might be considered a sin, the procreation thing, or simply like this, that God is the maker, he has rules that we should follow. Some of them are for reasons concerned with our practical life, and some concerned with him alone. This is a concept that i accepted, that if indeed there is a god, i can understand that i will do things for him, and that there are things that i will not do just for him too. This rule here for me, is just that God has made the world, two genders, his order is that these two genders mate. Just like we are supposed to pray for him, and do certain things just for him. If we don't do that, we have sinned. People have been discriminative against homosexuals all over the world, and in different ways, for different reasons.

Why do you think God cares whether somebody is actively homosexual? Human beings create children, but we never posit that the children should obey their parent's based on their fiat.

 

[Sahar]

so in reality there's something for everyone, you just find a scholar that's suits your thinking.

I am showing what other scholars have to say, to give a balanced view. Anyway based on Dr Ahmed Kutty's fatwa and similar fatwas, I am totally against any female circumcision.

 

[kai]

I am showing what other scholars have to say, to give a balanced view. Anyway based on Dr Ahmed Kutty's fatwa and similar fatwas, I am totally against any female circumcision.

glad to hear it

 

[Sahar]

One of the weirdest thing about homophobes is their obsession with sex. As soon as someone says "lesbian," (the subject of this thread) their dirty minds immediately go to other people's sex lives. Lesbianism and homosexuality are no more about sex than heterosexuality is. Is your relationship nothing but sex? A lesbian is a woman whose primary romantic interest is in other women, that's all. She may or may not have any sex. If she does, she does so in a relationship with another woman. There is nothing adulterous or evil about it. It's just a different form of loving--that's all.

Is there something about Islam that makes you all so dirty-minded, or is it just you?

Wow, that's a really dumb religion you got there. What did you say it was called?

I really hope that you don't expect me to take your posts seriously.

 

[Sunstone]

If you lived in a society where they're allowed to freely practice their abomination, you'd know why I said this. They go around trying to recruit innocent young teenagers into their despicable way of life.

Heterosexuals don't?

 

[Abu Rashid]

. What baloney! Right, they have nothing to do with Islam. It's wild coincidence that the more Muslim a country is, the more these things happen, that they happen in most Muslim countries, that the people who do them always say they're doing them because of Islam, and Islamic governments refuse to take action against them. Right.

Only one person is peddling baloney here, and it's you!

On the issue of honour murders for instance, Christian South America is probably the most prominent place that it occurs. Most of the countries in the world with legislation that excuses honour murders are Judeo-Christian, not Muslim.

Difference is the media couldn't give a crap about Brazilian men murdering their females for infidelity and then getting off virtually unprosecuted for it.

Doesn't make the same kinds of headlines that it does if the magic word "Muslim" is in the headlines.

And it happens quite regularly in English-speaking societies but they just palm it off as "crimes of passion", such a beautifully romantic term for murder.

And the legislation in so called Muslim countries (which are run by mostly European law codes anyway, not by Islam) didn't appear until the period of european colonialism. The Napoleonic code was the first introduction Muslim countries had to the concept of diminished responsiblity for honour murders. Doesn't excuse those despicable countries that continue to implement it, but look at the history of it.

 

[Caladan]

There are many respected scholars who say that it's un-Islamic practice, not just "an anonymous internet user".

I have no doubt. at some point a Muslim scholarly consensus is going to have to be reached into which direction to take the Islamic world or rather religion, either into a path with coming to terms with the spirit of change and social development or remaining static and dig in into archaic habits which alienate Muslims.
right now, Islam has alot to reform, perhaps more than all other major religions, many Muslims understand the need to accomodate their religious identity to where the world is going, other radical movements are trying to pull to the opposite direction.
as for our 'anonymous user', first he said that female gential mutilation is unIslamic, only to later say that its OK to not cut off the clitoris completely...

 

[Abu Rashid]

only to later say that its OK to not cut off the clitoris completely...

Still openly spouting fabrications I see, when I've not only asked you to produce one single statement by me saying cutting of the clitoris is acceptable, but I also brought the full quote from the Islamic site you *partially* quoted earlier, which clearly says it refers only to the skin that covers the clitoris and not the clitoris itself.

You only damage your own reputation by persisting with such falsifications.