Interviewing @sun rise

[JustGeorge]

There was a book written, The Wayfarers, about such people. I've not read it for some time, but my memory is that it's automatic.

In that case, I can see it being very inconvenient if one is in the wrong place..

I don't know. The only thing I can think of is the more tolerant we are about people's differences the better for everyone.

I wonder how many folks in the Western world have this going on, only to be labeled mentally ill. On the bright side, I don't think one would care at that point..

In 2002, we started a weight management program based on the principles of "Food Addicts In Recovery". Bread and sweets are considered "Trigger foods" in that program and our diet was based on those principles. I've since read that some diets are healthier than others and avoiding white bread for example.

Yes, that's true.

Do your spiritual beliefs affect your diet in any other ways?

I really don't understand the distinction of the first 3. One the 4th, there is tremendous power and the wish to use it. If the power is misused, there is a tremendous fall. Beyond that I can read this reference but do not have the experience to try to say more. Meher Baba: The Stages Of The Path

What does that 'fall' look like, do you think?

 

[sun rise]

I wonder how many folks in the Western world have this going on, only to be labeled mentally ill. On the bright side, I don't think one would care at that point..

I don't know. But someone I do had an experience that unbalanced him for a short time and was committed to a mental hospital. So being overwhelmed by an experience can be transitory.

Do your spiritual beliefs affect your diet in any other ways?

My understanding is that what comes out of the mouth is MUCH more important than what goes in at least in the west. But I also understand that certain foods can, in eastern terms, affect sattwic, rajasic or tamasic tendencies in a person.

What does that 'fall' look like, do you think?

All I can say is that Meher Baba said that a fall could be to the stone state or as an ordinary human who had to start the reincarnation phase all over again. He also indicated it was very rare.

 

[JustGeorge]

I don't know. But someone I do had an experience that unbalanced him for a short time and was committed to a mental hospital. So being overwhelmed by an experience can be transitory.

Yes, its true... I wonder what it would be like if we had more supports for 'spiritual crisis' and didn't jump straight to 'mental crisis'.

My understanding is that what comes out of the mouth is MUCH more important than what goes in at least in the west. But I also understand that certain foods can, in eastern terms, affect sattwic, rajasic or tamasic tendencies in a person.

Have you ever experimented with the Eastern concept of the energies of food?

All I can say is that Meher Baba said that a fall could be to the stone state or as an ordinary human who had to start the reincarnation phase all over again. He also indicated it was very rare.

I've read about the same in my studies... it sounds terrifying.

Its always nice to talk to someone else who believes in reincarnation... Any clue where you're headed next? Where would you like to go, or do you feel your cycles are near completion?

 

[sun rise]

Yes, its true... I wonder what it would be like if we had more supports for 'spiritual crisis' and didn't jump straight to 'mental crisis'.

Some day. We used to be "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet". But now India is pretty high-tech and many in the West are aware of the limits of Western culture and looking for alternatives.

Its always nice to talk to someone else who believes in reincarnation... Any clue where you're headed next? Where would you like to go, or do you feel your cycles are near completion?

Time for a boggle. Meher Baba says that people have 8,400,000 reincarnations on top of the uncounted lives as metal, stone, suns, plants and animals. People on the spiritual path can be taken "under the veil" and not know at all how far along they are. So my answer is that my mind is boggled at the number of lives and I have no idea how far along I am.

 

[JustGeorge]

Time for a boggle. Meher Baba says that people have 8,400,000 reincarnations on top of the uncounted lives as metal, stone, suns, plants and animals. People on the spiritual path can be taken "under the veil" and not know at all how far along they are. So my answer is that my mind is boggled at the number of lives and I have no idea how far along I am.

Wow! That is a lot. Do you think that's a literal or figurative number?

 

[sun rise]

Wow! That is a lot. Do you think that's a literal or figurative number?

I take it as literal but what do I know?

 

[sun rise]

These are terrifying times, too...

Terrifying, yes, certainly. But there's a song that captures what I feel about what we're going through and conveys my sense of optimism about what is coming no matter what it looks like now. And it is one source of my "The world is on fire". It uses a mash-up of Greek and Hindu figures. The song ends::
...
The long awaited dawn arrived
To a universe reborn
All who could endure the storm
Emerged as one transformed.
From the silence newly born.

Sometimes grace is beautiful
Sometimes it shatters all
Sometimes new life can only come
When old life takes a fall
And love's behind it all
And love's behind it all.
And love alone is all.

 

[JustGeorge]

Terrifying, yes, certainly. But there's a song that captures what I feel about what we're going through and conveys my sense of optimism about what is coming no matter what it looks like now. And it is one source of my "The world is on fire". It uses a mash-up of Greek and Hindu figures. The song ends::
...
The long awaited dawn arrived
To a universe reborn
All who could endure the storm
Emerged as one transformed.
From the silence newly born.

Sometimes grace is beautiful
Sometimes it shatters all
Sometimes new life can only come
When old life takes a fall
And love's behind it all
And love's behind it all.
And love alone is all.

I've noticed your stable optimism in the Chaos that seemingly envelopes so much of society right now.

What caused this optimism? How do you maintain it?

 

[sun rise]

What caused this optimism?

The root was growing up in the post-WWII world where we had defeated the forces of darkness at a terrible cost. The next event was not being blown up during the Cuban Missile Crisis when I had been convinced we were all going to die and soon. It was only later that we learned that one Soviet submariners action prevented a nuclear war that could have ended everything. It's to me a real fascinating story - video link below.

Next: Meher Baba. He addressed what is going on in a number of messages. Two examples: All this world confusion and chaos was inevitable and no one is to blame. What had to happen has happened; and what has to happen will happen. There was and is no way out except through my coming in your midst. I had to come, and I have come. I am the Ancient One. and The wave of destruction must rise still higher, must spread still further. But when, from the depths of his heart, man desires something more lasting than wealth and something more real than material power, the wave will recede. Then peace will come, joy will come, light will come. "

How do you maintain it?

A more precise question is "how do you recover when something happens to shatter your optimism?". Because I of course react to what is going on. The first piece is not to deny or minimize my emotional reaction. But also not to give it extra life by indulging negativity as much as I can. Then I work on shifting my focus to positive news stories that the regular media mostly ignores, watching/listening to songs like the one I posted before, looking at positive images, reading, reminding myself of my understanding, playing with our dog and so forth. In short, I work at holding optimism and recovering when something happens and I lose it.

 

[sun rise]

As a followup to my last post about what I do to regain optimism, today I came across a funny bored panda page and a couple of positive news stories that I found mood lifting and optimistic (including funny optimism)

Poverty Rate in India Drops Below 5% First Time Ever as Rural-Urban Divide Shrinks

While India contains several of the world's largest cities, there are still 1.8 rural Indians for every 1 urbanite.

www.goodnewsnetwork.org

What went right this week: Europe’s ‘historic’ nature law, plus more - Positive News

Europe passed a landmark nature law, Finland almost ended homelessness, and a Scottish land deal empowered communities, plus more good news

www.positive.news

43 Funny Animal Pics That Were Meant To Be Made Into Memes (laughter is wonderful medicine)

 

[JustGeorge]

The root was growing up in the post-WWII world where we had defeated the forces of darkness at a terrible cost. The next event was not being blown up during the Cuban Missile Crisis when I had been convinced we were all going to die and soon. It was only later that we learned that one Soviet submariners action prevented a nuclear war that could have ended everything. It's to me a real fascinating story - video link below.

Pretty scary... does today's political scene remind you at all of those days?

Next: Meher Baba. He addressed what is going on in a number of messages. Two examples: All this world confusion and chaos was inevitable and no one is to blame. What had to happen has happened; and what has to happen will happen. There was and is no way out except through my coming in your midst. I had to come, and I have come. I am the Ancient One. and The wave of destruction must rise still higher, must spread still further. But when, from the depths of his heart, man desires something more lasting than wealth and something more real than material power, the wave will recede. Then peace will come, joy will come, light will come. "

Many have not heard of Meher Baba(indeed, it was through you I learned of him). How do you think he affects/affected the world for those who are unable to receive his message?

A more precise question is "how do you recover when something happens to shatter your optimism?". Because I of course react to what is going on. The first piece is not to deny or minimize my emotional reaction. But also not to give it extra life by indulging negativity as much as I can. Then I work on shifting my focus to positive news stories that the regular media mostly ignores, watching/listening to songs like the one I posted before, looking at positive images, reading, reminding myself of my understanding, playing with our dog and so forth. In short, I work at holding optimism and recovering when something happens and I lose it.

Sounds like a healthy way of doing things...

 

[sun rise]

Pretty scary... does today's political scene remind you at all of those days?

The world is not so strongly bipolar as it was then. And back then nukes were not chest beating material as Putin indulges in today. So I don't think it likely that we'll have an all out exchange but it's possible a nuke might be used somewhere.

Many have not heard of Meher Baba(indeed, it was through you I learned of him). How do you think he affects/affected the world for those who are unable to receive his message?

He explicitly said his message is silent and that people in this era need to put their beliefs into action. He also said he did not come to found another religion. What he did indicate to release energy to help humanity take a step forward. Those who are open to receive that energy, whether they know or believe in him or not is not important. The reaction to new energy is important. The media is full of stories of people who cling to the lower nature and revel in greed, anger and so forth. Others feel that negativity is heavy and they wish to be free of it. The latter will respond as a flower opens to the sun.

 

[JustGeorge]

The world is not so strongly bipolar as it was then. And back then nukes were not chest beating material as Putin indulges in today. So I don't think it likely that we'll have an all out exchange but it's possible a nuke might be used somewhere.

I have trouble imagining that! Things seem very bipolar to me right now, but I don't have experience of what it was like back then...

Do you predict the current world political atmosphere will get any worse before it gets better?

He explicitly said his message is silent and that people in this era need to put their beliefs into action. He also said he did not come to found another religion. What he did indicate to release energy to help humanity take a step forward. Those who are open to receive that energy, whether they know or believe in him or not is not important. The reaction to new energy is important. The media is full of stories of people who cling to the lower nature and revel in greed, anger and so forth. Others feel that negativity is heavy and they wish to be free of it. The latter will respond as a flower opens to the sun.

Ah, that's lovely. So many religions have the stipulation of "you must be a member to benefit!" We don't see that here. You don't even have to know him at all!

Do you ever feel you are able to recognize those being affected by this energy? Is there any hope that the most negative of us will one day feel it, as well?

 

[sun rise]

I have trouble imagining that! Things seem very bipolar to me right now, but I don't have experience of what it was like back then...

I grew up in a bipolar world. First the experience of WWII when the whole world was at war between two sides. Then the Cold War which again was bipolar. Now we see it in the US. But it's also happened in various nations. Sunni and Shi'a Muslims used to live together. Ethnic groups in Africa have fought. And so it goes. And now we even see male/female political differences making some relationships impossible in the US. What has changed is that the great struggles of the world wars caused large groups of people to unite in common cause. Now that has passed and what was buried has come to the surface.

Do you predict the current world political atmosphere will get any worse before it gets better?

That's a very good question. The answer is "I don't know". I see signs that it's getting worse and I see some of the opposite.

Do you ever feel you are able to recognize those being affected by this energy? Is there any hope that the most negative of us will one day feel it, as well?

We are all destined to feel it sooner or later. Meher Baba put it this way: The sojourn of the soul is a thrilling divine romance in which the lover — who in the beginning is conscious of nothing but emptiness, frustration, superficiality, and the gnawing chains of bondage — gradually attains an increasingly fuller and freer expression of love. And ultimately the lover disappears and merges in the divine Beloved to realize the unity of the lover and the Beloved in the supreme and eternal fact of God as infinite Love.

 

[JustGeorge]

I grew up in a bipolar world. First the experience of WWII when the whole world was at war between two sides. Then the Cold War which again was bipolar. Now we see it in the US. But it's also happened in various nations. Sunni and Shi'a Muslims used to live together. Ethnic groups in Africa have fought. And so it goes. And now we even see male/female political differences making some relationships impossible in the US. What has changed is that the great struggles of the world wars caused large groups of people to unite in common cause. Now that has passed and what was buried has come to the surface.

It seems like no matter what, there's a war going on somewhere...

That's a very good question. The answer is "I don't know". I see signs that it's getting worse and I see some of the opposite.

What's getting worse? What's getting better?

Do you have any thoughts on the idea of this being the Kali Yuga?

We are all destined to feel it sooner or later. Meher Baba put it this way: The sojourn of the soul is a thrilling divine romance in which the lover — who in the beginning is conscious of nothing but emptiness, frustration, superficiality, and the gnawing chains of bondage — gradually attains an increasingly fuller and freer expression of love. And ultimately the lover disappears and merges in the divine Beloved to realize the unity of the lover and the Beloved in the supreme and eternal fact of God as infinite Love.

Beautifully put.

The theme of the Divine Lovers is perhaps my favorite symbolism... Do you have preferred 'pairs' or stories regarding this?

 

[sun rise]

It seems like no matter what, there's a war going on somewhere...

Sadly yes. Wars are the natural consequence of our lower natures expressing lust for power, greed, hatred and all the rest.

What's getting worse? What's getting better?

What's worse? The political climate in the US. Russia's statements about taking back all the nations that were part of the USSR. And so forth.

What's getting better? There's a lot of little things that often don't get into the news. One example is The violent crime rate dropping quickly. Public Benefit Corporations did not exist when I was younger. There is a transition from owning things to valuing experiences which I count as a step forward. There are stories from different perspectives about how things are getting better https://www.cato.org/commentary/things-are-getting-better-really-they-are# and 13 Ways the World Got Better in 2023 to name a couple. I track those stories on several positive web sites.

Do you have any thoughts on the idea of this being the Kali Yuga?

This is a big topic. I'll do a separate post.

The theme of the Divine Lovers is perhaps my favorite symbolism... Do you have preferred 'pairs' or stories regarding this?

There's a Persian story of "Layla" and "Majnun" But to me a more direct story is about the great sufi, Hafiz:

He was very ugly and the son of a coal merchant. One day he fell in love with a beautiful girl he saw standing on the balcony of a house. She, of course, did not even notice ugly Hafiz. He became determined to marry her, so he sought tantric powers. (Baba explained something of these powers in his talk and how they are acquired and what troubles they can cause. -- (Murshida Ivy Duce of Sufism Reoriented)

Hafiz finally succeeded in a particular forty-day penance, and on the fortieth day the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and told him to ask for anything he wanted. On seeing the incredible beauty of the Angel Gabriel, Hafiz forgot all about the girl and thought that if the Angel could be so gorgeous, how wondrous must God be, and so he said, "I want God!"

Gabriel directed him to a Perfect Master, for whom he slaved for forty years, going through hell, as it were. The Master then gave him God-realization and Hafiz became a Perfect Master.

 

[sun rise]

Do you have any thoughts on the idea of this being the Kali Yuga?

There's a lot of context involved. Meher Baba indicated my next advent, after I drop this body, will be after seven hundred years, and that will mark the end and the beginning of a cycle of cycles. All cycles of time in illusion end and begin after seven hundred to fourteen hundred years. There have been and will be millions and billions of such cycles in a cycle of cycles.

This brings in the Hindu conception of the life of Brahma and it's mind boggling 311 trillion human years. For a billion cycles of say 1000 years is a trillion years which is longer than the life of the current universe and spans multiple kalpas.

So according to what Meher Baba indicated we're speaking of an unbelievably long time of which the kali yuga is a tiny interval.

There are alternative theories, of course, but according to Sufism Reoriented's web site:

According to the Hindu system, we are now at the dawn of the first Day of the fifty-first Year of Brahma, the halfway point in the total life of Illusion.[14] Those mathematics match very well Baba’s statements indicating that we are now midway through our journey and have reached Creation’s turning point!...
...
Consequently, consciousness is now farther than it has ever been or will be from its shining core, the origin from which life descended. And humanity, at the height of material mastery and power, with awareness focused outward, is, according to Baba, as far as it has ever been from knowledge of God.

That is why this last cycle of seven Avatars has been so difficult and intense; they are the last seven Avatars on the entire spiral of this outward curving Cycle of cycles. That is why this Kali Yuga has been characterized as “the worst and most destructive in the world’s history”;[15] it is the last moment of the darkest night of winter in the spirit’s long arc of descent into crystallized material form.

That is why consciousness now seems so beclouded and dark and why this age has been the most materialistic, separative, and divisive ever known. That is why, in our time, the lower nature and its desires have been so powerful, so relentless, so coarse and crude, why human behavior has been so often gruesome, why the past five thousand years have been marked by so much savagery and unconscious exploitation and cruelty, why historians often proclaim that the history of man is the record of warfare.

So from this, all the misery is not just due to a kali yuga, but from a much bigger process and that this is a turning point toward a wonderful future which will unfold over the next incredible timespan.

 

[JustGeorge]

Sadly yes. Wars are the natural consequence of our lower natures expressing lust for power, greed, hatred and all the rest.

What's worse? The political climate in the US. Russia's statements about taking back all the nations that were part of the USSR. And so forth.

What's getting better? There's a lot of little things that often don't get into the news. One example is The violent crime rate dropping quickly. Public Benefit Corporations did not exist when I was younger. There is a transition from owning things to valuing experiences which I count as a step forward. There are stories from different perspectives about how things are getting better https://www.cato.org/commentary/things-are-getting-better-really-they-are# and 13 Ways the World Got Better in 2023 to name a couple. I track those stories on several positive web sites.

I wonder, if we(people in general) could focus on all the little good things rather than all the little bad ones, how society might change...

This is a big topic. I'll do a separate post.

There's a Persian story of "Layla" and "Majnun" But to me a more direct story is about the great sufi, Hafiz:

I just came across the story of Layla and Majnun a few days ago!

He was very ugly and the son of a coal merchant. One day he fell in love with a beautiful girl he saw standing on the balcony of a house. She, of course, did not even notice ugly Hafiz. He became determined to marry her, so he sought tantric powers. (Baba explained something of these powers in his talk and how they are acquired and what troubles they can cause. -- (Murshida Ivy Duce of Sufism Reoriented)

Hafiz finally succeeded in a particular forty-day penance, and on the fortieth day the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and told him to ask for anything he wanted. On seeing the incredible beauty of the Angel Gabriel, Hafiz forgot all about the girl and thought that if the Angel could be so gorgeous, how wondrous must God be, and so he said, "I want God!"

Gabriel directed him to a Perfect Master, for whom he slaved for forty years, going through hell, as it were. The Master then gave him God-realization and Hafiz became a Perfect Master.

I read recently that we 'love' those who bring out the divine love in us. Would you say that has any merit?

 

[JustGeorge]

There's a lot of context involved. Meher Baba indicated my next advent, after I drop this body, will be after seven hundred years, and that will mark the end and the beginning of a cycle of cycles. All cycles of time in illusion end and begin after seven hundred to fourteen hundred years. There have been and will be millions and billions of such cycles in a cycle of cycles.

This brings in the Hindu conception of the life of Brahma and it's mind boggling 311 trillion human years. For a billion cycles of say 1000 years is a trillion years which is longer than the life of the current universe and spans multiple kalpas.

Oh, those numbers are mind boggling....

So according to what Meher Baba indicated we're speaking of an unbelievably long time of which the kali yuga is a tiny interval.

Its the shortest of the Yugas, if my understanding is right.

There are alternative theories, of course, but according to Sufism Reoriented's web site:

According to the Hindu system, we are now at the dawn of the first Day of the fifty-first Year of Brahma, the halfway point in the total life of Illusion.[14] Those mathematics match very well Baba’s statements indicating that we are now midway through our journey and have reached Creation’s turning point!...
...
Consequently, consciousness is now farther than it has ever been or will be from its shining core, the origin from which life descended. And humanity, at the height of material mastery and power, with awareness focused outward, is, according to Baba, as far as it has ever been from knowledge of God.

So, it can't get any worse?

That is why this last cycle of seven Avatars has been so difficult and intense; they are the last seven Avatars on the entire spiral of this outward curving Cycle of cycles. That is why this Kali Yuga has been characterized as “the worst and most destructive in the world’s history”;[15] it is the last moment of the darkest night of winter in the spirit’s long arc of descent into crystallized material form.

That is why consciousness now seems so beclouded and dark and why this age has been the most materialistic, separative, and divisive ever known. That is why, in our time, the lower nature and its desires have been so powerful, so relentless, so coarse and crude, why human behavior has been so often gruesome, why the past five thousand years have been marked by so much savagery and unconscious exploitation and cruelty, why historians often proclaim that the history of man is the record of warfare.

As slow as this process is, we probably won't get to see much of it in this current incarnation. Do you find comfort that you'll get to experience it somewhere else, as someone else?

So from this, all the misery is not just due to a kali yuga, but from a much bigger process and that this is a turning point toward a wonderful future which will unfold over the next incredible timespan.

Well, that is hopeful news.

 

[sun rise]

I wonder, if we(people in general) could focus on all the little good things rather than all the little bad ones, how society might change...

My understanding is that is how we can help the process along especially when we are the actors not just the observers. And it's 99% of the time small gestures - a kind word, listening to someone's problems, a smile can cause another person to also express a kind word and so forth.

I recently read praise for atheists in a quote from Martin Buber's "Tales of Hasidim". It illustrates how we ourselves can be the good deeds:

There is an old tale where the rabbi was asked by one of his students “Why did God create atheists?”​

After a long pause, the rabbi finally responded with a soft but sincere voice. “God created atheists” he said, “to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his actions are based on his sense of morality. Look at the kindness he bestows on others simply because he feels it to be right.​

​

When someone reaches out to you for help. You should never say ‘I’ll pray that God will help you.’ Instead, for that moment, you should become an atheist – imagine there is no God who could help, and say ‘I will help you’.”​

I read recently that we 'love' those who bring out the divine love in us. Would you say that has any merit?

Yes. We are attracted to Jesus, Krishna and other figures because for us they represent love even if we don't consciously know that. If we have a tzaddik, guru, murshid it's ideally because they hold up a mirror so we can more clearly walk the path of love.

So, it can't get any worse?

I think of it as winter and spring. Before winter is finally over there are hints of spring with buds starting to form, more daylight, hints of warmth in the air. This does not mean that winter is done with us - there can still be serious storms. But the grip of winter is gradually disappearing. So, yes, it can get temporarily worse but with all the ups and downs the trend is positive.

As slow as this process is, we probably won't get to see much of it in this current incarnation. Do you find comfort that you'll get to experience it somewhere else, as someone else?

Honestly it makes me a bit grumpy. I'm no saint so I have a ego that wants to see it through with my current mind.