Interviewing @sun rise

[JustGeorge]

Hi @sun rise !

Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed!

I know you to be a follower of Meher Baba... can you share a little more about that with us?

Is there a specific name for your path?

What do you feel we ought to know about Meher Baba?

 

[sun rise]

Three questions in one!

I know you to be a follower of Meher Baba... can you share a little more about that with us?

I started off life as an atheist Jew of atheist parents. My closer relatives members of a Conservative Jewish Temple. But I wanted none of that refusing, for example, to have a Bar Mitzvah. I did attend a school at the Jewish Community Center but it was focused on more secular concerns although I did learn a couple of prayers.

One thing of note was that I read a book, Treasury of Jewish Folklore, which was mostly secular stories including humorous ones. In that book there was a story about the attempt by some to bring down the Jewish Messiah by prayers, fasting and other such means. They almost succeeded when the Messiah was ready to mount his white horse but ultimately failed.

Later on when I became interested in spiritual questions during the 60's, I was listening to Richard Alpert, Baba Ram Das, on the radio one night in a certain state when he read Meher Baba's message on drugs. I felt like someone with a fever who had ice water dumped on him - it was clear to me that Meher Baba knew the state I was in and described how what we thought was "God in a pill" was false.

After some exploration, I started researching Meher Baba and found he made the most extraordinary claims - that he was more than God in human form, he was in India terms the Avatar. How could someone make that claim? It seems false. But I had to keep learning what he had written and how he lived his life. His life to me was far from an ordinary person's life and fascinated me.

Along the way, I kept thinking "if he is who he claims to be, then (with some question)" which went on for a while. Among other thinks, he was noted as the "White Horse Avatar" which linked back to the story I had read.

At the end of the exploration I accepted his claim.

Is there a specific name for your path?

There's no specific name for those who follow Meher Baba though "Baba lovers" is often used.

What do you feel we ought to know about Meher Baba?

His colophon has the symbols of the major world religions and in the center the text "Mastery in Servitude". If we are the "servant" of truth, of love, of justice, we are on the path to self mastery. He indicated it does not matter what one believes or does not believe, only that we try to live up to our best understanding about the world and our place in it.

If someone is interested, there are a lot of online resources, books, talks and videos.

 

[JustGeorge]

Three questions in one!


I started off life as an atheist Jew of atheist parents. My closer relatives members of a Conservative Jewish Temple. But I wanted none of that refusing, for example, to have a Bar Mitzvah. I did attend a school at the Jewish Community Center but it was focused on more secular concerns although I did learn a couple of prayers.

One thing of note was that I read a book, Treasury of Jewish Folklore, which was mostly secular stories including humorous ones. In that book there was a story about the attempt by some to bring down the Jewish Messiah by prayers, fasting and other such means. They almost succeeded when the Messiah was ready to mount his white horse but ultimately failed.

What happened when the Messiah tried to mount his white horse?

Later on when I became interested in spiritual questions during the 60's, I was listening to Richard Alpert, Baba Ram Das, on the radio one night in a certain state when he read Meher Baba's message on drugs. I felt like someone with a fever who had ice water dumped on him - it was clear to me that Meher Baba knew the state I was in and described how what we thought was "God in a pill" was false.

As an atheist, how was it that spiritual questions began to catch your interest?

After some exploration, I started researching Meher Baba and found he made the most extraordinary claims - that he was more than God in human form, he was in India terms the Avatar. How could someone make that claim? It seems false. But I had to keep learning what he had written and how he lived his life. His life to me was far from an ordinary person's life and fascinated me.

I'm sure hundreds(at least) have made a similar claim. What made you decide he really was "the Avatar"?

And for clarification, I want to make sure I understand what you're referencing... Vishnu's 10th incarnation as Kalki, correct?

Along the way, I kept thinking "if he is who he claims to be, then (with some question)" which went on for a while. Among other thinks, he was noted as the "White Horse Avatar" which linked back to the story I had read.

I thought of that when I read that bit!

Does Meher Baba have any links to a white horse?

At the end of the exploration I accepted his claim.


There's no specific name for those who follow Meher Baba though "Baba lovers" is often used.

His colophon has the symbols of the major world religions and in the center the text "Mastery in Servitude". If we are the "servant" of truth, of love, of justice, we are on the path to self mastery. He indicated it does not matter what one believes or does not believe, only that we try to live up to our best understanding about the world and our place in it.

If someone is interested, there are a lot of online resources, books, talks and videos.

Did he come out of any specific tradition before he was 'all embracing'?

 

[sun rise]

What happened when the Messiah tried to mount his white horse?

The full story is here: A Treasury of Jewish Folklore, edited by Nathan Ausubel
But the Angel warned him to show no pity for evil and to give Satan and his wife neither food nor a smell of the strong spices with which Joseph and his disciples, no longer taking food, were sustaining themselves. There was great rejoicing in Heaven. Elijah the Prophet began to practice mighty blasts on the shofar to announce the coming of the Messiah, and the Messiah himself led his white horse out of the Heavenly Stable, to prepare for the descent.
--- and ended with---
“The angels in Heaven went into mourning, the Prophet Elijah put away the great shofar of the Redemption, and the Messiah sadly led his white horse back into the stable. Then God declared, ‘Pay heed, O Joseph della Reyna! No human has the power to end the Exile! I alone, God, will hasten the Redemption of the Jewish People when the right times comes!’”

The white horse is also a symbol in the Bible's Book of Revelation and a symbol of the Hindu Kalki who appears at the end of the Kali Yuga. That makes the symbol very meaningful to me.

As an atheist, how was it that spiritual questions began to catch your interest?

Trying to stay away from a rule violation, it was the 60's when the idea of take a pill, see God was being promoted. I will just say that I participated in the zeitgeist of the times. And looking back, I had always had a "I wonder" feeling when I looked at the stars at night. So I was more agnostic than hard atheist but for a long time did not think religion or spirituality was of any interest whatsoever.

But looking back, I remembered being at the 1967 Montreal World's Faire and picking up a flyer with some Meher Baba messages that I kept though not knowing why. So maybe the answer to your question is that I knew but did not know consciously what I knew at another level. Maybe also being attracted first to that story about the Messiah and the white horse and later to a Meher Baba flyer were steps along the way.

I'm sure hundreds(at least) have made a similar claim. What made you decide he really was "the Avatar"?

And for clarification, I want to make sure I understand what you're referencing... Vishnu's 10th incarnation as Kalki, correct?

In Meher Baba's formulation the Avatar is eternal and incarnates every approximately 700-1400 years. He identified Zoroaster, Krishna, Rama, Buddha, Muhammad and Jesus as the most recent ones. The 7th one becomes silent and the message is that the world has been given enough teachings, it's past time to live them. And after the 7th in any one cycle, another cycle of seven begins.

Does Meher Baba have any links to a white horse?

I'm not sure what you mean about links. When he was on what is called his "New Life" one was given to him along with other animals. Mani Irani, Eruch Jessawala, Don Stevens: A Master Of Horses

Did he come out of any specific tradition before he was 'all embracing'

By birth he was a Zoroastrian, specifically a "Parsi" and descended from people who had fled Persia due to discrimination.

 

[sun rise]

This question has been on my mind so expanding.

What do you feel we ought to know about Meher Baba?

There were several messages I picked up in the 1967 flyer and one other that I excerpt below. I took these messages as a challenge. I had to decide whether or not he is indeed the "Highest of the High":

"Meher Baba's Universal Message" contains this which is clearly true:
Man's inability to live God's words makes the Avatar's teaching a mockery. Instead of practising the compassion he taught, man has waged crusades in his name. Instead of living the humility, purity and truth of his words, man has given way to hatred, greed and violence.

"How to Love God" starts with
To love God in the most practical way is to love our fellow beings. If we feel for others in the same way as we feel for our own dear ones, we love God.

"The Seven Realities" contains this very challenging ask:
The only Real Knowledge is the knowledge that God is the inner dweller in good people and so-called bad, in saint and so-called sinner. This knowledge requires you to help all equally as circumstances demand, without expectation of reward, and when compelled to take part in a dispute, to act without the slightest trace of enmity or hatred; to try to make others happy, with brotherly or sisterly feeling for each one; to harm no one in thought, word or deed, not even those who harm you.

And later on I read his "Highest of the High" message struck me as very logical as well as challenging:
The question therefore arises that if I am not a sadhu, not a saint, not a yogi, not a mahapurush, nor a wali, then what am I? The natural assumption would be that I am either just an ordinary human being, or I am the Highest of the High. But one thing I say definitely, and that is that I can never be included amongst those having the intermediary status of the real sadhus, saints, yogis and such others.
...
Now, if I am just an ordinary man, my capabilities and powers are limited — I am no better or different from an ordinary human being.
...
On the other hand, if I am beyond the level of an ordinary human being, and much beyond the level of saints and yogis, then I must be the Highest of the High.
...
Know you all that if I am the Highest of the High, my role demands that I strip you of your possessions and wants, consume all your desires and make you desireless rather than satisfy your desires. Sadhus, saints, yogis and walis can give you what you want; but I take away your wants and free you from attachments and liberate you from the bondage of ignorance. I am the One to take, not the One to give, what you want as you want.
...
From my point of view, far more blessed is the atheist who confidently discharges his worldly responsibilities, accepting them as his honorable duty, than the man who presumes he is a devout believer in God, yet shirks the responsibilities apportioned to him through Divine Law and runs after sadhus, saints and yogis, seeking relief from the suffering which ultimately would have pronounced his eternal liberation.
...
If I am the Highest of the High, then a wish of my Universal Will is sufficient to give, in an instant, God-realization to one and all and thus free every creature in creation from the shackles of Ignorance. But blessed is Knowledge that is gained through the experience of Ignorance in accordance with the Divine Law. This Knowledge is made possible for you to attain in the midst of ignorance by the guidance of Perfect Masters and surrenderance to the Highest of the High.

 

[JustGeorge]

The full story is here: A Treasury of Jewish Folklore, edited by Nathan Ausubel
But the Angel warned him to show no pity for evil and to give Satan and his wife neither food nor a smell of the strong spices with which Joseph and his disciples, no longer taking food, were sustaining themselves. There was great rejoicing in Heaven. Elijah the Prophet began to practice mighty blasts on the shofar to announce the coming of the Messiah, and the Messiah himself led his white horse out of the Heavenly Stable, to prepare for the descent.
--- and ended with---
“The angels in Heaven went into mourning, the Prophet Elijah put away the great shofar of the Redemption, and the Messiah sadly led his white horse back into the stable. Then God declared, ‘Pay heed, O Joseph della Reyna! No human has the power to end the Exile! I alone, God, will hasten the Redemption of the Jewish People when the right times comes!’”

The white horse is also a symbol in the Bible's Book of Revelation and a symbol of the Hindu Kalki who appears at the end of the Kali Yuga. That makes the symbol very meaningful to me.

What does the symbol of the White Horse mean to you on a personal level?

Trying to stay away from a rule violation, it was the 60's when the idea of take a pill, see God was being promoted. I will just say that I participated in the zeitgeist of the times. And looking back, I had always had a "I wonder" feeling when I looked at the stars at night. So I was more agnostic than hard atheist but for a long time did not think religion or spirituality was of any interest whatsoever.

I'm familiar enough with Ram Das to know what you mention in regards to the rules. How was that, awakening to the idea that there was something more? How long did it take you to adjust to the idea?

But looking back, I remembered being at the 1967 Montreal World's Faire and picking up a flyer with some Meher Baba messages that I kept though not knowing why. So maybe the answer to your question is that I knew but did not know consciously what I knew at another level. Maybe also being attracted first to that story about the Messiah and the white horse and later to a Meher Baba flyer were steps along the way.

Knew but you didn't know. I like it; I think many spiritual people can relate to the concept.

Do you feel the attraction of the story of the Messiah and the white horse was an indicator to where you'd go eventually, or do you feel they were something that made you more open to Meher Baba later on?

Do you still have the flyer?

In Meher Baba's formulation the Avatar is eternal and incarnates every approximately 700-1400 years. He identified Zoroaster, Krishna, Rama, Buddha, Muhammad and Jesus as the most recent ones. The 7th one becomes silent and the message is that the world has been given enough teachings, it's past time to live them. And after the 7th in any one cycle, another cycle of seven begins.

So he'll be back, then, but in a new cycle?

What are these cycles like? What happens in between one cycle to the next?

This question has been on my mind so expanding.


There were several messages I picked up in the 1967 flyer and one other that I excerpt below. I took these messages as a challenge. I had to decide whether or not he is indeed the "Highest of the High":

That's a big step, to take word of someone who seems ordinary on the surface as being an Avatar of God. How long did it take you to decide this was the truth? How was it taken by the people in your life?

"Meher Baba's Universal Message" contains this which is clearly true:
Man's inability to live God's words makes the Avatar's teaching a mockery. Instead of practising the compassion he taught, man has waged crusades in his name. Instead of living the humility, purity and truth of his words, man has given way to hatred, greed and violence.

I'm stuck on the word 'inability'. Does he suggest that man has been unable to walk a compassionate path, or unwilling?

"How to Love God" starts with
To love God in the most practical way is to love our fellow beings. If we feel for others in the same way as we feel for our own dear ones, we love God.

I agree.

"The Seven Realities" contains this very challenging ask:
The only Real Knowledge is the knowledge that God is the inner dweller in good people and so-called bad, in saint and so-called sinner. This knowledge requires you to help all equally as circumstances demand, without expectation of reward, and when compelled to take part in a dispute, to act without the slightest trace of enmity or hatred; to try to make others happy, with brotherly or sisterly feeling for each one; to harm no one in thought, word or deed, not even those who harm you.

I agree here, too...

I notice the number 7 pops up again. Is there a significance to it?

And later on I read his "Highest of the High" message struck me as very logical as well as challenging:
The question therefore arises that if I am not a sadhu, not a saint, not a yogi, not a mahapurush, nor a wali, then what am I? The natural assumption would be that I am either just an ordinary human being, or I am the Highest of the High. But one thing I say definitely, and that is that I can never be included amongst those having the intermediary status of the real sadhus, saints, yogis and such others.
...
Now, if I am just an ordinary man, my capabilities and powers are limited — I am no better or different from an ordinary human being.
...

How did he demonstrate that he was not ordinary?

On the other hand, if I am beyond the level of an ordinary human being, and much beyond the level of saints and yogis, then I must be the Highest of the High.
...
Know you all that if I am the Highest of the High, my role demands that I strip you of your possessions and wants, consume all your desires and make you desireless rather than satisfy your desires. Sadhus, saints, yogis and walis can give you what you want; but I take away your wants and free you from attachments and liberate you from the bondage of ignorance. I am the One to take, not the One to give, what you want as you want.
...

How have you found that he has achieved this 'taking' in your life?

From my point of view, far more blessed is the atheist who confidently discharges his worldly responsibilities, accepting them as his honorable duty, than the man who presumes he is a devout believer in God, yet shirks the responsibilities apportioned to him through Divine Law and runs after sadhus, saints and yogis, seeking relief from the suffering which ultimately would have pronounced his eternal liberation.
...

Liberation through dharma, it seems to me.

If I am the Highest of the High, then a wish of my Universal Will is sufficient to give, in an instant, God-realization to one and all and thus free every creature in creation from the shackles of Ignorance. But blessed is Knowledge that is gained through the experience of Ignorance in accordance with the Divine Law. This Knowledge is made possible for you to attain in the midst of ignorance by the guidance of Perfect Masters and surrenderance to the Highest of the High.

What does this last bit mean to you?

 

[sun rise]

You ask very penetrating questions!

What does the symbol of the White Horse mean to you on a personal level?

It does not have a personal level meaning. But I find it notable when some image or idea is present in many places.

I'm familiar enough with Ram Das to know what you mention in regards to the rules. How was that, awakening to the idea that there was something more? How long did it take you to adjust to the idea?

It was a gradual process lasting perhaps a year.

Do you feel the attraction of the story of the Messiah and the white horse was an indicator to where you'd go eventually, or do you feel they were something that made you more open to Meher Baba later on?

Yes definitely more open.

Do you still have the flyer?

Yes. I did not remember everything in it so went to my filing cabinet and found it.

So he'll be back, then, but in a new cycle?

What are these cycles like? What happens in between one cycle to the next

History and mythology tell us something about what happens. Meher Baba said what the outcome of the cycle we're entering will be (and following the Eastern "Yuga" cycle where we're ending the Dark/Kali yuga and beginning a new golden/sat yuga:
When I come again after seven hundred years the evolution of consciousness will have reached such an apex that materialistic tendencies will be automatically transmuted into spiritual longing, and the feeling of equality in spiritual brotherhood will prevail. This means that opulence and poverty, literacy and illiteracy, jealousy and hatred, which are in evidence today in their full measure, will then be dissolved through the feelings of the oneness of all men. Prosperity and happiness will then be at their zenith.

This does not mean that oneness in illusion shall remain so eternally. That is because all this that is, is illusion, and the consciousness of oneness as well as of manyness in illusion is part of the process of evolution. The time is bound to recur when there will be again the same beginning, growth and culmination of the heights of manyness and oneness in illusion.

That's a big step, to take word of someone who seems ordinary on the surface as being an Avatar of God. How long did it take you to decide this was the truth? How was it taken by the people in your life?

Several years. I first heard of Meher Baba in 1969. In 1974 I went to India to his "samadhi" (tomb) and to meet the ones who were close to him (mandali/disciples). I did not anticipate the impact of that visit. The atmosphere has changed since then but there was an unearthly sweet perfume when I arrived and I had the continuing sense that Meher Baba was very very close - that he had just stepped out of the "room". His close ones were very human with very human differences in how they reacted. The one common element was how loving they were.

I'm stuck on the word 'inability'. Does he suggest that man has been unable to walk a compassionate path, or unwilling?

Maybe a bit of both. I know personally that it is a challenge of a lifetime and more to overcome my lower nature. The process takes a long time.

I notice the number 7 pops up again. Is there a significance to it?

Yes. According to Meher Baba there are 7 "planes" on the spiritual path. The first three are "subtle", the realm of energy. The 4th is a transition where people have immense power and can use it. The 5th and 6th are "mental", the planes of thought and the 7th is the goal of union with the Divine.

 

[sun rise]

How did he demonstrate that he was not ordinary?

Without posting a biography, by his life. In one sense he was very ordinary - enjoying sports, card games, jokes and so forth. A divine figure to me is at one time perfectly human while being perfectly divine. Meher Baba contacted those who are called "Mast" - God intoxicated souls. Some of them made statements about his divinity. Some people who met him were awestruck by his presence and the love they felt from him. He reacted to his detractors by saying they helped him in his work. Movies of him.

Two incidents stick out in my mind - they were the auto accidents he was in when touring the US and in India. This is from the India accident. If you accept the story, there's no way that someone in a horrible accident would respond the way he did:

When I came to, I found I was the only one in the back of the car. I stepped out and went to the front to see how Baba was and saw him reclining in the front seat, with blood on his clothes and face. [Even though Baba was bleeding], never in my life have I seen such utter radiance and luster as was on Baba's face then! He was like a king, a victorious king who had won a great battle. Lord Krishna must have looked like that in his chariot on the victorious battlefield. The radiance was blinding! I could see nothing else, not the car, nor the surroundings, only Baba's face in glorious triumph!

How have you found that he has achieved this 'taking' in your life?

The process is to me a letting go. It's not an ordinary "take" but voluntarily working to give up lower aspects of the self.

Liberation through dharma, it seems to me.

Yes very closely. He indicated that he had not come to give new teachings. But to me it's a fusion of bhakti (love) and dharma (action) - love is the motivation to act.

What does this last bit mean to you?

"Guidance of Perfect Masters": This refers to those who have fully achieved the goal - union with the divine. People are free to choose their own path but we've never been on the path of return and a guide can help us avoid unnecessary pitfalls. But there are so many frauds and misguided people offering advice that extreme discrimination is needed but that's a big topic.

 

[River Sea]

@sun rise I'm learning about Meher Baba due to your interview.

Here's YouTube video: singing Music: "Dhun" - Singing Meher Baba's Name

 

[JustGeorge]

Without posting a biography, by his life. In one sense he was very ordinary - enjoying sports, card games, jokes and so forth. A divine figure to me is at one time perfectly human while being perfectly divine. Meher Baba contacted those who are called "Mast" - God intoxicated souls. Some of them made statements about his divinity. Some people who met him were awestruck by his presence and the love they felt from him. He reacted to his detractors by saying they helped him in his work. Movies of him.

What does it mean to be a God intoxicated soul?

Two incidents stick out in my mind - they were the auto accidents he was in when touring the US and in India. This is from the India accident. If you accept the story, there's no way that someone in a horrible accident would respond the way he did:

When I came to, I found I was the only one in the back of the car. I stepped out and went to the front to see how Baba was and saw him reclining in the front seat, with blood on his clothes and face. [Even though Baba was bleeding], never in my life have I seen such utter radiance and luster as was on Baba's face then! He was like a king, a victorious king who had won a great battle. Lord Krishna must have looked like that in his chariot on the victorious battlefield. The radiance was blinding! I could see nothing else, not the car, nor the surroundings, only Baba's face in glorious triumph!

Impressive indeed!

The process is to me a letting go. It's not an ordinary "take" but voluntarily working to give up lower aspects of the self.

Has this been a natural process for you, or a struggle?

Yes very closely. He indicated that he had not come to give new teachings. But to me it's a fusion of bhakti (love) and dharma (action) - love is the motivation to act.

"Guidance of Perfect Masters": This refers to those who have fully achieved the goal - union with the divine. People are free to choose their own path but we've never been on the path of return and a guide can help us avoid unnecessary pitfalls. But there are so many frauds and misguided people offering advice that extreme discrimination is needed but that's a big topic.

What advice would you give to a person who seeks a Perfect Master for guidance?

 

[sun rise]

What does it mean to be a God intoxicated soul?

On the spiritual path people can either function outwardly in an ordinary way or get so intoxicated with love for God that they become overpowered and to outward appearances are insane because they can't function in the world.

Has this been a natural process for you, or a struggle?

A bit of both. Sometimes it feels easy but I sometimes I have a real struggle trying to hold to my ideals and fail to do so. In a way it's like any form of learning - it's a challenge but to me a worthwhile struggle.

What advice would you give to a person who seeks a Perfect Master for guidance?

There's a saying that to me applies "when the student is ready, the teacher(master) will appear". But being ready is not a "walk in the park". An analogy might be wanting to study a subject with a Nobel Prize winner. A level of readiness is needed.

A suggestion is to study the lives of those who might or might not be perfect but I've found worth learning about. For Catholics, St. Francis of Assisi would be my #1 suggestion. There are several in India from more recent times: Papaji, Nisargadatti Maharaj, Sri Aurobindo & the Mother, Ramana Maharshi, and Ramakrishna Paramhamsa come to mind.

It's also critical not to be gullible. Given the number of fakes, misguided people and those looking to exploit seekers especially those who are really proficient in their trickery, I would advise taking time to really learn about someone. Use all your intellect and all your intuition in the search. The below quote is to me a helpful statement:

"A true leader does not seek followers, he wants to teach others how to be leaders. He does not want control, he wants the truth. He does not impose his leadership on others, nor does he take away anyone's autonomy. He inspires by love, not coercion. When it comes time to take credit, he makes himself invisible; but he is the first to arrive at the time of need, and he will never shrink away in fear. He is so passionate about your welfare that when you consult him for guidance, it is like coming face to face with yourself for the first time." - Rebbe Menachem M Schneerson (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

A great episode of The Simpsons, "The Joy of Sect" shows how cult leaders operate. (link below to a bit of that episode). A cult leader wants followers, control, employs coercion etc.

 

[JustGeorge]

On the spiritual path people can either function outwardly in an ordinary way or get so intoxicated with love for God that they become overpowered and to outward appearances are insane because they can't function in the world.

Do you think a person has any power over whether they become God intoxicated? Is it a bad way to be, in your opinion?

A bit of both. Sometimes it feels easy but I sometimes I have a real struggle trying to hold to my ideals and fail to do so. In a way it's like any form of learning - it's a challenge but to me a worthwhile struggle.

What ideals are trickiest for you?

There's a saying that to me applies "when the student is ready, the teacher(master) will appear". But being ready is not a "walk in the park". An analogy might be wanting to study a subject with a Nobel Prize winner. A level of readiness is needed.

I've heard that phrase most definitely. And either teachers come in many forms, or I've never been ready!

Do you believe the 'teacher' is always a human in an elevated position(I lack a better term here), or do you think what a teacher is can vary?

A suggestion is to study the lives of those who might or might not be perfect but I've found worth learning about. For Catholics, St. Francis of Assisi would be my #1 suggestion. There are several in India from more recent times: Papaji, Nisargadatti Maharaj, Sri Aurobindo & the Mother, Ramana Maharshi, and Ramakrishna Paramhamsa come to mind.

Besides Meher Baba, who are some of your favorite inspirational people?

It's also critical not to be gullible. Given the number of fakes, misguided people and those looking to exploit seekers especially those who are really proficient in their trickery, I would advise taking time to really learn about someone. Use all your intellect and all your intuition in the search. The below quote is to me a helpful statement:

"A true leader does not seek followers, he wants to teach others how to be leaders. He does not want control, he wants the truth. He does not impose his leadership on others, nor does he take away anyone's autonomy. He inspires by love, not coercion. When it comes time to take credit, he makes himself invisible; but he is the first to arrive at the time of need, and he will never shrink away in fear. He is so passionate about your welfare that when you consult him for guidance, it is like coming face to face with yourself for the first time." - Rebbe Menachem M Schneerson (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

Those are good guidelines, I think. And a good reminder of what traps to avoid falling into for those who may have egos getting too big...

A great episode of The Simpsons, "The Joy of Sect" shows how cult leaders operate. (link below to a bit of that episode). A cult leader wants followers, control, employs coercion etc.

Ah, Simpsons Wisdom.

 

[sun rise]

Too many questions for one post. Here's a couple of thoughts with more to come later

Do you think a person has any power over whether they become God intoxicated?

I do remember reading a couple of stories about someone who had an overwhelming experience and becoming intoxicated. But beyond that I don't know.

Is it a bad way to be, in your opinion?

I don't assign good or bad - it just is. But my understanding is that in the West we should be "sober" (salik).

What ideals are trickiest for you?

"Do your best and leave the results to God" - Have I really done my best? I often don't think so. Not care about the result? That's a real challenge.

Dealing with anger. Given the suffering in the world today, from time-to-time I get enraged at the dark cruelty causing so much unnecessary misery and suffering. Anger is normal, we're not stones, but I need to channel that into what I can do to at least try to tilt the balance.

Not falling prey to gluttony - It's always with me at least a little. I deal with it by heaping a plate with salad so I can eat and eat but not suffer from the consequences of overeating.

I might think of more later

 

[sun rise]

I've heard that phrase most definitely. And either teachers come in many forms, or I've never been ready!

My understanding is that in the progression of reincarnations, people may have a teacher in one life but then have more lives where they need to put the new understandings into action. So I'm not sure if it's always about readiness. It could be about putting what you've learned in a past life into action this time. Or maybe you met your teacher in a casual way and were told something that changed your life? Or maybe a teacher blessed you silently as you walked down the street?

The metaphor of "teacher" which evokes classrooms etc can only take us so far.

Do you believe the 'teacher' is always a human in an elevated position(I lack a better term here), or do you think what a teacher is can vary?

My "Simpson's wisdom" is an example of my answer. I'll add that anyone and anything can be a teacher of a certain kind. A helpful attitude toward me is to try to keep the thought that we can learn from life. We can even learn from Donald Trump how certain desires and actions can cause suffering:

When I see beings of an evil disposition​

Oppressed by heavy misdeeds and suffering,​

May I, as if having discovered a jeweled treasure,​

Cherish them as extremely precious​

For they are rare to find!​

​

But those kinds of teachers are limited. I'm reminded of the story in the Quran about Khizr and Moses. The actions of one such as Khizr stems from real knowledge. In Meher Baba's Sufism Reoriented, the charter specifies that a leader, murshid, must have advanced consciousness of Divine Vision what he's called the '6th plane'. Such a figure automatically acts in accord with the Divine will.

Besides Meher Baba, who are some of your favorite inspirational people?

The people who inspire me today are seemingly ordinary people whose action let light into the world. A few stories:

'Hero' binman rescues man, woman and dog from Tipton house fire

The fire is believed to have started when an e-bike battery exploded while on charge.

www.bbc.com

The Law Student Who Walked Hundreds Of Miles For The Homeless, By KarunaNews

In 2020, we learned about Gordon Wayne. At that time, he was a rising college student who had spent teenage years homeless. That summer, he

www.karunanews.org

Hug Therapy Helps Premature Babies Develop as Volunteers Sit in for Moms Who Can't Be There

The Provincial Maternity Hospital of Córdoba welcomes 50 volunteer huggers to spend time hugging prematurely born babies.

www.goodnewsnetwork.org

 

[JustGeorge]

Too many questions for one post. Here's a couple of thoughts with more to come later


I do remember reading a couple of stories about someone who had an overwhelming experience and becoming intoxicated. But beyond that I don't know.

I don't assign good or bad - it just is. But my understanding is that in the West we should be "sober" (salik).

Why?

"Do your best and leave the results to God" - Have I really done my best? I often don't think so. Not care about the result? That's a real challenge.

It really can be difficult to get yourself to care about some small task... Have you found any tricks to it that help at least part of the time?

Dealing with anger. Given the suffering in the world today, from time-to-time I get enraged at the dark cruelty causing so much unnecessary misery and suffering. Anger is normal, we're not stones, but I need to channel that into what I can do to at least try to tilt the balance.

I know you do some volunteer work. Do you ever use that as a way to work off some of the emotions that build over watching the world's sufferings? What works do you do?

Not falling prey to gluttony - It's always with me at least a little. I deal with it by heaping a plate with salad so I can eat and eat but not suffer from the consequences of overeating.

Yup, that's pretty much what my doctor told me to do! Does it help?

I might think of more later

My understanding is that in the progression of reincarnations, people may have a teacher in one life but then have more lives where they need to put the new understandings into action. So I'm not sure if it's always about readiness. It could be about putting what you've learned in a past life into action this time. Or maybe you met your teacher in a casual way and were told something that changed your life? Or maybe a teacher blessed you silently as you walked down the street?

As a fellow believer in reincarnation, that makes sense to me.

The metaphor of "teacher" which evokes classrooms etc can only take us so far.

Some of the most profound 'teachers' never formally teach, in my opinion.

My "Simpson's wisdom" is an example of my answer. I'll add that anyone and anything can be a teacher of a certain kind. A helpful attitude toward me is to try to keep the thought that we can learn from life. We can even learn from Donald Trump how certain desires and actions can cause suffering:

When I see beings of an evil disposition​

Oppressed by heavy misdeeds and suffering,​

May I, as if having discovered a jeweled treasure,​

Cherish them as extremely precious​

For they are rare to find!​

​

That's hard to remember sometimes, when someone of an "evil disposition" are digging their teeth in...

But those kinds of teachers are limited. I'm reminded of the story in the Quran about Khizr and Moses. The actions of one such as Khizr stems from real knowledge. In Meher Baba's Sufism Reoriented, the charter specifies that a leader, murshid, must have advanced consciousness of Divine Vision what he's called the '6th plane'. Such a figure automatically acts in accord with the Divine will.

I'm not sure I understand. 6th plane?

The people who inspire me today are seemingly ordinary people whose action let light into the world. A few stories:

'Hero' binman rescues man, woman and dog from Tipton house fire

The fire is believed to have started when an e-bike battery exploded while on charge.

www.bbc.com

The Law Student Who Walked Hundreds Of Miles For The Homeless, By KarunaNews

In 2020, we learned about Gordon Wayne. At that time, he was a rising college student who had spent teenage years homeless. That summer, he

www.karunanews.org

Hug Therapy Helps Premature Babies Develop as Volunteers Sit in for Moms Who Can't Be There

The Provincial Maternity Hospital of Córdoba welcomes 50 volunteer huggers to spend time hugging prematurely born babies.

www.goodnewsnetwork.org

Its good to recognize the ordinary good in the world. Too easy to get caught up in the negative.

 

[sun rise]

Why?

I'm not sure why people in the West should be salik. I can speculate that it has to do with the energy of India vs the US. And of course there's culture. India has a tradition of having someone become the attendant of those who are becoming spiritually advanced. In the West, they're labeled as mentally ill and are without support.

Have you found any tricks to it that help at least part of the time?

Tricks to help letting go? My #1 is a sense of humor. My friends and I tend to have quite a bit of a sense of humor about this and humor is very helpful

I know you do some volunteer work. Do you ever use that as a way to work off some of the emotions that build over watching the world's sufferings? What works do you do?

Yes to volunteer work. Also, there are times when I can channel anger into pulling weeds!

Yup, that's pretty much what my doctor told me to do! Does it help?

Yes - if my plate overflows with salad and healthy veg, there's much less room for high calorie stuff. I also eat very little bread which is also helpful.

I'm not sure I understand. 6th plane?

It's hard to talk about some things without good background and this is one. This chart illustrates the evolution of the soul (not necessarily the same as physical evolution) to human form then reincarnation until one enters involution, the path of return. The path of return can be experienced or under a "veil" where people experience being quite ordinary which avoids some of the enchantments of the planes as I've read. When someone reaches the 6th, they "see" God in everyone and every thing and can invite us to have certain attitudes and actions that will further our path.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'm not sure why people in the West should be salik. I can speculate that it has to do with the energy of India vs the US. And of course there's culture. India has a tradition of having someone become the attendant of those who are becoming spiritually advanced. In the West, they're labeled as mentally ill and are without support.

"should be" Do you think a person can prevent God intoxication?

It would be a difficult path, for sure. Do you think the West would benefit from having such a thing encouraged(or at least tolerated), or is it not something we need?

Tricks to help letting go? My #1 is a sense of humor. My friends and I tend to have quite a bit of a sense of humor about this and humor is very helpful

Yup, I agree here.

Yes to volunteer work. Also, there are times when I can channel anger into pulling weeds!

Yes - if my plate overflows with salad and healthy veg, there's much less room for high calorie stuff. I also eat very little bread which is also helpful.

How long have you set bread aside, and what made you consider doing so initially?

It's hard to talk about some things without good background and this is one. This chart illustrates the evolution of the soul (not necessarily the same as physical evolution) to human form then reincarnation until one enters involution, the path of return. The path of return can be experienced or under a "veil" where people experience being quite ordinary which avoids some of the enchantments of the planes as I've read. When someone reaches the 6th, they "see" God in everyone and every thing and can invite us to have certain attitudes and actions that will further our path.

I really love this picture...

I can see pretty clearly what's happening in the 5th and 6th spheres. Can you tell me more about the first 4? Its not as clear to me here.

 

[sun rise]

"should be" Do you think a person can prevent God intoxication?

There was a book written, The Wayfarers, about such people. I've not read it for some time, but my memory is that it's automatic.

It would be a difficult path, for sure. Do you think the West would benefit from having such a thing encouraged(or at least tolerated), or is it not something we need?

I don't know. The only thing I can think of is the more tolerant we are about people's differences the better for everyone.

How long have you set bread aside, and what made you consider doing so initially?

In 2002, we started a weight management program based on the principles of "Food Addicts In Recovery". Bread and sweets are considered "Trigger foods" in that program and our diet was based on those principles. I've since read that some diets are healthier than others and avoiding white bread for example.

Can you tell me more about the first 4? Its not as clear to me here.

I really don't understand the distinction of the first 3. One the 4th, there is tremendous power and the wish to use it. If the power is misused, there is a tremendous fall. Beyond that I can read this reference but do not have the experience to try to say more. Meher Baba: The Stages Of The Path

 

[River Sea]

Meher Baba: The Stages Of The Path

The merging into the second plane is called fana-e-batili, or the annihilation of the false. The pilgrim is now absorbed in bliss and infinite light (I'm still reading the website)

When I came to, I found I was the only one in the back of the car. I stepped out and went to the front to see how Baba was and saw him reclining in the front seat, with blood on his clothes and face. [Even though Baba was bleeding], never in my life have I seen such utter radiance and luster as was on Baba's face then! He was like a king, a victorious king who had won a great battle. Lord Krishna must have looked like that in his chariot on the victorious battlefield. The radiance was blinding! I could see nothing else, not the car, nor the surroundings, only Baba's face in glorious triumph!

@sun rise
When seeing radiance, was this white light in Bada while light radiance was also flowing outward? I've seen white light in people radiate outward, so this is why I am wondering.

 

[sun rise]

When seeing radiance, was this white light in Bada while light radiance was also flowing outward? I've seen white light in people radiate outward, so this is why I am wondering.

I wish I could help you with what you're seeing but I can't. I don't have the knowledge or wisdom to advise you.