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Interpreting Prophesies in Scripture,Has a prophesy been fulfilled or yet to be ...

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by God is love, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    Prophesy is usually best understood in hindsight. After it has come to pass we look at scripture and suddenly see it's fulfillment.

    It is more difficult to see or understand future events. For example in Isaiah's day people would have been confounded wondering what Isaiah 60.8 and Isaiah 5.26-30 were about.

    Isaiah 60:8 ""Who are these that fly as a cloud and as the doves to their windows?"
    This sounds like Isaiah was describing the modern way of travelling, the airplane.
    There would have been nothing like it in his day so the best way that he could described it would be to describe how it looks, like a bird.

    In Isaiah 5.26-29 "And He will lift up an ensign to the nations from far and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth and behold they shall come with speed swiftly.

    None shall be weary or stumble among them, none shall slumber or nor sleep, neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed nor the latchet of their shoes be broken.

    Whose arrows are sharp and all their bows bent. Their horses hoofs shall be counted like flint and their WHEELS LIKE A WHIRLWIND."
    This sounds like trains or cars.

    The prophesy of Isaiah and other prophets can be confusing even in our day, what is being said and when it is to be fulfilled. Perhapps that is why there is a difference of opinion as to it's proper interpretation.

    Prophesies are blended together and sometimes out of chronological order. That makes it more difficult to determine when it will happen.

    If signs are difficult to understand, discern, they would be difficult to recognize when they are occuring. That is why they are usually recognized in hindsight.

    I think it is better to look at all the scriptures pertaining to a particular subjest to get a better understanding then to focus just on one in it's context. It is better to look at all the scriptures pertaining to the Messiah, to see a picture of Him more completely.

    For example recognizing charecteristics or signs of the Messiah.

    After those interested glance through these verses, the question is,
    How can all these have happened at the same time?
    A king would have been honored and not spit upon.

    Therefore { I believe } there was a first and second comming.

    I can understand why the Jewish people and those who believe in Jesus as a Messiah would have a difference of opinion because of the different verses depicting opposite lifestyles such as His humble and despised life and His majesty as a king

    Isaiah 11:11 +++ " And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again, the Second time to recover the remnant of His people."

    I have placed the following in a {most likely} chronological order of events

    Some prophets have described Him as a king and judge:

    Daniel 7:13 "i saw in a night visions and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven ..."

    Micah 1:3 "For behold the Lord cometh forth out of His place and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth."

    Zechariah 14:4 "And His feet shall stand upon the Mount of olives which is before Jerusalem on the east and the mount of olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west ..."

    Isaiah 40:5 "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together for yhe mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

    Psalms 102:16 "When the Lord shall build up Zion, He shall appear in His glory"

    Jeremish 23:5 "Behold the days come saith the Lord that I will raise unto David, a righteous branch and a king shall reign and prosper and shall execute judgement and justice and justice in the earth,"

    Zechariah 14:9 "And the Lords shall be king over all the earth. In that day there shall be one Lord and Hid name one."

    Daniel 7:14 "And there was given Him dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people, nations and languages should serve Him. His dominion is a everlasting dominion which shall not pass away and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

    Isaiah 52:10 "The Lord hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

    Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the Lord thy God, the holy one of Israel, the savior. I gave Egypt for thy ransom, ..."

    Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I am the Lord and beside me there is not Saviour."

    Hosea 13:4 "I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt and thou shalt know no God but me for there is nor savior beside me."

    Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because the Lord hath anointed me
    to preach good tidings unto the meek. He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound."

    Zechariah 13:6 "And one shall say unto Him, What are these wounds in thins hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

    Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of david and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn."

    Other prophesies describe him as a savior, born in humble circumstances, a healer, rejected and bruised

    Isaiah 19:20 *** "And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt. For they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressers and He shall send them a savior and a great one and He shall deliver them."

    Isaiah 45:17 "But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation. Ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."

    Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree, the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son, this day I hath begotten thee."

    Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel {God with us}."

    Although Isaiah was speaking to Ahaz, the king of Judah at the time {who at the time did not want a sign}, God gave a sign to show in our time {in hindsight} the fulfillment of those words which has made it prophetic in hindsight.

    Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto me that is to be a ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old from everlasting."

    Numbers 24:17 "... There shall come a star out of Jacob and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel ..."

    Malachi 3.1 "Behold I will send my messenger and He shall prepare the way before me and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in. Behold He shall come, saith the lord of hosts."

    Psalms 27:1 "The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life, of whom shall I be afraid?"

    Exodus 15:2 "The Lord is my strength and song and He is become my salvation. He is my God and I will prepare Him an habitation, my father's God and I will exalt Him."

    Isaiah 42:7 "To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."
    I also think this refers to a spiritual blindness as well.

    Ezekiel 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God. Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and bring you into the land of israel."

    Isaiah 33.22 "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king. He will save us."

    Isaiah 2:4 "And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into prunining hooks..."

    Habakkuk 3:13 "Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people even for salvation with thine anointed ..."

    Zechariah 9:9 "rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, thy king cometh unto thee. He is just and having salvation, lowly and riding upon a colt ..."

    Psalms 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me."
    I think this refers to extremists who rejected Him

    Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

    Isaiah 53:4 "surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God and afficted."

    Isaiah 53:5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquites.

    Isaiah 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair. I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

    Isaiah 53:7-8 "He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter ..."

    Psalms 22:16 "They pierced my hands and feet."

    Psalms 69:21 "...and in my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink."
    compare John 19:29 and Luke 23:36 "And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming to Him and offering Him vinegar." {fulfilled}

    Psalms 34:20 "He keepeth all His bones, not one of them is broken."
    Compare John 19:31

    Psalms 22:18 "They part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture."
    Compare John 19:23 "Then the soldiers when they crucified Jesus took His garments and made four parts, to every soldier a part and also His coat. Now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said therefore among themselves, let us not rend it but cast lots for it, whose it shall be." {fulfilled}

    Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory."

    Isaiah 26:19 "thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body they shall arise ... The earth shall cast out the dead."
     
  2. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    I want to say to the Jewish people, whom I love that I understand why the Jewish people of Jesus' day would have reservations as to His authority or right to be the Messiah. After all a person isn't a god or Messiah or prophet just because He claims to be.

    Perhapps due to their respect for the expected Messiah thay wanted to be cautious about whom they would accept.

    Christians also would wonder, be concerned or reject a person that claimed to be Christ if he didn't fulfill the expected signs of His comming which were mentioned in the previous post such as "Comming in the clouds".

    There have been recent examples of this such as David Kerash {do not know spelling of name} in Waco Texas. Some believed but most did not.

    Jesus Christ warned about false christs So there would be some skeptism amongst those who know their scriptures. The scriptures {Knowing them} can protect against false christs and prophets. How? Because truth does not contradict itself.

    Therefore it is understandable why there would be skeptism in Jesus time.

    As I write this I thought about the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Saying so doesn't make it so but who would claim to be the Messiah? Who would want the job of the Messiah. He would have to be crucified to atone for the sins of everybody. Who would want to be crucified, killed in such a tortuous way. Only one person has claimed to be the Messiah. Others may claim to be Christ after the atonement was done but only one, Jesus Christ claimed to be the Messiah before the atonement was done, willinng to be the sacrificial lamb which is part of the feast of passover.

    If the Jewish people had accepted the Messiah at the time, the atonement wouldn't have happened
    so God choose a time when He wouldn't be accepted so the atonement which was neccessary would be able to happen and not be thwarted.

    I read that the primary reason why the Jewish People did not think of Jesus as a Messiah is because He didn't save them from Roman rule or since then when others have invaded captured, ruled over them or killed them. Jesus Christ will save them from their enemies when He comes again.

    Zechariah 12:9 "And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    Jesus made the Jews a priority over others at that time.
    new testement Matthew 15:26 "And behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts and cried unto Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David, my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But He answered her not a word. and His disciples came and besought Him saying, sens her away for she crieth after us. But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then she came and worshipped Him, saying, Lord help me. But He answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith, be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

    That shows that Jesus is for the Jews. Jesus loves the Jews. That is why He was willing to be their savior as well as the savior of all humanity.

    Isaiah 63:9 +++ "In all their affliction He was afflicted. ...In His love and in His pity He redeemed them."

    He loves the Jews as family because they are His relatives through the line of David, the tribe of Judah. The ten other tribes of Israel are His extended family.



    There were some teachers, priests that were zealous as mentioned in Psalms 69.9 "For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up"

    Some pharisees didn't care about the poor.
    new testement Matthew 23:23 and 25 "Woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy and faith." "...within they are full of extortion and excess."

    Jesus wanted to help the poor so I understand why the pharisees weren't thrilled with Him.
    new testement
    Matthew 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in heaven and come and follow me."
    Luke 14:13 "When thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind"

    1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold to obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken than the fat of rams."

    I don't fault the Jewish people because of an event in ancient history. The Jewish people of today did not live then nor did those of the 1930's.

    I wish I could show the love of Christ to you but I don't want to offend so if you don't want His love, please, accept mine, with a hug. Shalom!

    I hope not posting this in your room "Judaism" proves my love for you in that I am being respectfull. I want to feel welcome there as I want to share common interests such as the building of your Temple in Jerusalem. I'm looking forward to that with anticipation. It will be amazing.

    I also want to say that it isn't what you accept that makes a difference between the Jews and Christians. After all, the old testement {Torah} has been bonded together with the new testement in bibles. It is what you haven't accepted that makes the difference and that is the Messiah as a similtude of the sacrificial lamb, a human sacrifice,which was depicted in some old testement {Torah} prophesies that I included in the previous post.
     
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  3. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    my only critique of this is that you are using christian criteria to define "Messiah" and not Jewish.
    i am fully aware that the messiah concept has transcended Judaism and come into other faiths, each defining the role differently. But i point out again that the traditional role and expected accomplishments of Moshiach in Judaism were never completed by Jesus of Nazareth.
    you say that:
    many have claimed this position and one, about a century after the reported death of Jesus almost fulfilled this role, Shimon bar-Kochba, who the great Rabbi Akiva believed could be the Messiah.

    The criteria used in these posts is that of a christian concept of Messiah, which is different than how judaism defines it. And that's ok. that's why they are 2 different faiths. but the docterine and beliefs of the two have become so different that to try to merge them into one faith takes away from both.
    For Jews, the Moshiach's identity will be revealed in G-d's time, not ours
    in the mean time make sure you don't end up loosing the Christian in Jesus:)
     
  4. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    God is Love, that is very good, nice job! The prophecies are overwhelming. For those who wish to see, and know the truth and be saved, not by their own righteousness, which is as filthy rags, but by Christ's righteousnes imputed freely unto those who believe, may God open their eyes.
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    i don't even know where to start:rolleyes:
    oy vey
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Why do you insist man was created to be sinful and vile? Judaism believes a man can be righteous even if he's NOT a Jew.

    I believe man was created to be the pinnacle of Creation.

    13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
    "I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
    (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

    "Is there any Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God! All are His servants, and all abide by His bidding!"
    - The Báb
    (Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 27)

    "O Lord! Should the breath of the Holy Spirit confirm the weakest of creatures, he would attain all to which he aspireth and would possess anything he desireth. Indeed, Thou hast assisted Thy servants in the past and, though they were the weakest of Thy creatures, the lowliest of Thy servants and the most insignificant of those who lived upon the earth, through Thy sanction and potency they took precedence over the most glorious of Thy people and the most noble of mankind."
    (Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 179)


    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    So many mistranslations, it's not even worth my time going through and correcting them.

    For fun: Where do you see the word, "Pierced"?
    Psalm 22:17 כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    "filthy rags"?

    Perhaps, but those "rags" are what we live this life to attain. When we go before God what we have done and not done is plain to our own eyes. God gave us life to exercise choice about what we do and do not do. God's Grace and Mercy have always been there to provide for us even when we may have lapsed.

    God created us for love of us, if we reciprocate that love to God and pass it on to one another for the love of God, how can we go wrong? When we do not reciprocate that love and pass it on to one another, how can we go right?

    "Say: O men! This is a matchless Day. Matchless must, likewise, be the tongue that celebrateth the praise of the Desire of all nations, and matchless the deed that aspireth to be acceptable in His sight. The whole human race hath longed for this Day, that perchance it may fulfil that which well beseemeth its station, and is worthy of its destiny. Blessed is the man whom the affairs of the world have failed to deter from recognizing Him Who is the Lord of all things."
    (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 38)


    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Have you even read the prophecies that you posted??? Be honest. Like have you ever read the entire chapter before you post the first thought that comes to your mind??? Remember, Jesus wouldn't want you to lie. Half the crap you posted is so wrong in translation or in the fact that you believe it to be about Jesus....

    You posted Zachariah 12:10 and Zachariah 13:6 as prophicies of Jesus. So one must assume that you believe them to be the same. So, let's look at this.

    10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

    11. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon.

    12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart.

    13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart.

    14. All the remaining families-every family apart, and their wives apart.


    1. On that day, a spring shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling.
    -----G-d will eventually purify all the land.

    2. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of Hosts: I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned. And also the prophets and the spirit of contamination I will remove from the earth.
    -----G-d will remove idols and false prophets.

    3. And it shall come to pass, if a man still prophesies, that his father and his mother-his parents-shall say to him, "You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord." And his father and his mother-his parents-shall thrust him through because of his prophesying.
    -----Parents will turn in their own children to the proper authorities for false prophecy.

    4. And it shall come to pass on that day that the prophets shall be ashamed, each one of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear a hairy mantle in order to lie.
    -----On that day that is talked about, all the false prophets will be ashamed of their lies.

    5. And he shall say, "I am not a prophet! I am a tiller of the soil, for a man entrusted me with his cattle from my youth."
    -----The false prophet will admit that he is not a real prophet, that he abused the trust given him.

    6. And one will say to him, "What are these wounds between your hands?" And he shall say, "That I was smitten in the house of my friends."
    -----They will now ask the false prophet what those wounds between his hands, he will say that is where my loved ones reproved me.
    7. O sword, awaken against My shepherd and against the man who is associated with Me! says the Lord of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and the flock shall scatter, and I will return My hand upon the little ones.
    -----G-d will smite the Kingdoms that he used to watch the Jews in the exile for their mistreatment, and the flocks will be free.


    Okay, so there are the Zachariah prophecies you believe talking about Jesus.

    Now, let's talk about some of the other ones you posted.

    You posted:
    Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel {God with us}."

    First of all, the hebrew word is Almah, which is a young woman. The hebrew word for a virgin is betulah, which Isaiah himself uses 5 different times, so why would Isaiah not use Betulah which he damn well knew meant virgin, but use Almah?

    Also, let's look at the context (you know the WHOLE chapter - like we did for Zachariah)

    1. And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz son of Jotham son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Aram, and Pekah son of Remaliah, king of Israel, marched on Jerusalem to wage war against it, and he could not wage war against it.
    -----It's saying that he couldn't wage war against King Ahaz even though Ahaz himself is wicked and evil because Ahaz's forefathers were righteous people.

    2. And it was told to the House of David, saying, "Aram has allied itself with Ephraim," and his heart and the heart of his people trembled as the trees of the forest tremble because of the wind.
    -----Okay, so the situation, two of Ahaz's enemies have allied themselves.

    3. And the Lord said to Isaiah, "Now go out toward Ahaz, you and Shear-Yashuv your son, to the edge of the conduit of the upper pool, to the road of the washer's field.
    -----Isaiah is now going to King Ahaz.

    4. And you shall say to him, "Feel secure and calm yourself, do not fear, and let your heart not be faint because of these two smoking stubs of firebrands, because of the raging anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.
    -----Isaiah tells him not to fear what King Ahaz thinks is an iminent attack, he tells him to consider them fires that have been extinguished.

    5. Since Aram planned harm to you, Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, saying:

    6. 'Let us go up against Judah and provoke it, and annex it to us; and let us crown a king in its midst, one who is good for us,'
    -----They plotted to destroy King Ahaz and take his kingdom.

    7. So said the Lord God, 'Neither shall it succeed, nor shall it come to pass.
    -----G-d assures King Ahaz it won't succeed.

    8. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and in another sixty-five years, Ephraim shall be broken, no longer to be a people.
    -----Talks about the exile of Jews to come and how Rezinwill only be heard in Damascus, not in Jerusalem.

    9. And the head of Ehpraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah; if you do not believe, it is because you cannot be believed."
    -----G-d warns Ahaz that he may not believe his propehcy.

    10. And the Lord continued to speak to Ahaz, saying,

    11. "Ask for yourself a sign from the Lord, your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the heights above."
    -----G-d tells Ahaz though Isaiah to give him a test to prove it and he will do it.

    12. And Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord."
    -----Ahaz says he won't test G-d.

    13. And he said, "Listen now, O House of David, is it little for you to weary men, that you weary my God as well?
    -----Isaiah tells him that he knows Ahaz doesn't have faith in the prophets of G-d, and it's because he is wicked.

    14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
    -----So G-d is going to give King Ahaz the sign.
    Now before I continue on, very simple question, did G-d give Ahaz this sign??? Remember this is 700+ years before Jesus was born. So to believe this verse talks about Jesus is VERY idiotic. Imagine Ahaz's reaction if Isaiah said what you believe, "Don't worry King Ahaz, you won't need to fear the attack by Aram and Ephraim because Behold! G-d will give you a sign, in 700 + years a guy named Jesus is going to come. How idiotic would Isaiah have looked? He probably would have been killed for such a stupid and idiotic prophecy - if this was about Jesus-.

    Furthermore, a careful analsyis of Isaiah 8 and 9 shows that this prophecy is fullfilled. The young woman is his wife, who concieves in 9:5: For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

    So who is the young woman spoken of in Isaiah 7:14? It's Ahaz's wife...
    The reason he is called the "prince of peace" is simple, peace and truth will be in his days. Which they are. Furthermore, Ahaz is wicked, it's saying that even though he is wicked, his son will be a tzadik, or a righteous man.

    Heh, I just 2 hours on this response. What a waste, I have one more section to post that I just wrote but won't fit here because I'm 4,000 characters over the limit.
     
  10. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let's do one more in depth analysis today,
    Isaiah 53:

    Okay, before I go line by line, it's important to note this is the last of the servant songs.

    When we first read this, we see a lot of "he, him". So who is this person that is talked about? Well, in verse 11 we find out that it's, avdi, my servant. So who is this servant? As I said above, this is the fourth of four servant songs, in the earlier songs it says explicitly that the servant is Israel.

    Isaiah 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen.
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
    -----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
    Isaiah 41:8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me,

    Okay, so now we've established who the servant is, the nation of Israel also called Jacob, let's again think of the last servant song. Why in this case would Isaiah go so out of whack to totally redefine who the servant is? Another piece of evidence to consider, all the capital He and Him's you have are nothing but interpretation. Hebrew doesn't have capital letters. So you'd have to ask your translators why they translation Lo capitalized in this case as a capital he, vs. a lower case.

    Okay, so now let's look at the grammar of Isaiah 53 to further prove it's impossible to be talking about one person.

    מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

    8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

    At the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person. So if you send a letter to the people who translate Isaiah 53, I actually would be interested in their response.

    וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו

    Again the word at the end B'Motav says "with his deaths" i.e. multiple deaths as apposed to Be'Moto, "with his death". verse 9.

    Another thing, if you follow the whole narative, look at 52:14 it is refering to the kings, the gentile kings. At that point, the story is given from their perspective, they are the "we" and the "our", giving their side of it. Why then would the Jews, G-d's people, then be thrown into it? They wouldn't, unless they are the ones being afflicted.

    The final piece of evidence is this: I'm still trying to figure out how it could possibly be "prophetic" if it was written in 700BC in the past tense.... The entire narritive of Isaiah 53 is in the PAST tense, so explain, why would G-d have Isaiah go so out of whack with prophecy, ignore grammatical rules, and ignore the previous 3 servant songs where Avdi is identified as the nation of Israel.

    I can go on through each one of those, but I find this is a waste of my time since you've probably never even read the entire chapter of anything I posted except for maybe Isaiah 53 simply because you believe the entire thing refers to him. If for some reason you do decide to respond to my points, in something that isn't, "G-d works in mysterious ways", you can pick 3 more that I will go through and counter your argument, whatever it may be.
     
  11. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    This thread is awfully quiet. :rolleyes:

    This was an easy one.

    The full verse in question...
    Numbers 24:17 17. I see it, but not now; I behold it, but not soon. A star has gone forth from Jacob, and a staff will arise from Israel which will crush the princes of Moab and uproot all the sons of Seth.

    Okay, did Jesus crush the princes of Moab? Nope... but you know who did??? King David...

    Seen with II Samuel 8:1-2

    1. And it came to pass after this, that David smote the Philistines and he subdued them; and David took Metheg-ammah out of the land of the Philistines.

    2. And he smote Moab, and measured them off with a line, making them lie down on the ground; and he measured two cord-lengths to put to death, and one full cord-length to keep alive. And the Moabites became as servants to David, bringing presents.

    Okay, kind of hard to say this refers to Jesus, isn't it?
     
  12. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    courpse(s) plural. It's not dead body, but dead BODIES.

    Did jesus have multiple bodies and multiple deaths??
     
  13. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Your sources of scripture are invalid Deut. Nothing but incorrect transcriptions from the original Hebrew text.
     
  14. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Only the first 5 books of the Old Testament are in their original form. All other books of the Old Testament are incomplete, and have been transcrbed incorrectly.

    Jesus who is the author of all true inspired scripture will be the first to tell you this when He sees you.

    "The Law" or Torah is the only original text or scripture that has not been tampered with by man.

    Matthew 5: 18

    "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from THE LAW, till all be fulfilled."

    Jesus Christ never said that the other books would survive over the centuries intact. They would undergo inaccurate and incomplete transcriptions as a result of people not accepting their true Messiah.

    Those that do not believe in Jesus Christ, as the Messiah, that has already come, will accept an incorrectly transcribed hebrew text of scripture.

    Jesus Christ IS the Law. Jesus Christ IS the Word.
     
  15. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not using translations. I'm reading the original, can you say the same?
     
  16. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    That's the most pathetic rebuttal I've ever seen. Instead of saying I'm mistranslating something, why don't you explain why Almah in Isaiah 7:14 is translated as a young woman in all other locations by your translators EXCEPT here. Your responses are giving Christianity in general a bad name.

    Or even better. Instead of claiming that I'm reading the Hebrew wrong, why don't you show me examples where the same Hebrew word is translated in the way you view it.
     
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  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Original what?
     
  18. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Deut. is reading the text in the original language: Hebrew.
     
  19. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    So he is merely reading it in the original language?
     
  20. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Presumably.
     
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