Intelligent Design seems somewhat overstated...

[Polymath257]

If scientists are so bound to their pet theories, how is it possible that we have seen so many theories overthrown?

For example, the Steady State model for the universe was probably very popular among those not wanting the universe to have a beginning, yet it was discarded and the Big Bang theory replaced it.

Or, the model of the universe with no dark energy was certainly the most popular and accepted one, so how did it get overthrown and the current model adopted?

Or, Newtonian physics was universally accepted among the physics community, but for some reason it was replaced by the highly counter-intuitive descriptions provided by general relativity and quantum mechanics. How was that possible if scientists are so unified against new ideas?

Or, the theory of plate tectonics was, not that long ago, seen as silly and not worth pursuing. yet now it is the heart of our understanding of geology. How was this possible if scientists are so wedded to their egos and cherished theories?

It's easy to go on with examples. The egos of the top scientists can be a hindrance to the adoption of new ideas. That much is true. But the way to get to the top is to overthrow some idea that has been cherished and accepted. But to accomplish this overthrow requires data showing the old theory is false.

Creationists aren't ignored because of some scientific dogma. They are ignored because the don't have the data to back up their claims and because they so frequently misunderstand basic ideas in the sciences they attack politically.

 

[Etritonakin]

If the base design is flawed, whether the execution is bespoke or mass production, flaws will remain.

Intentional flaws are excellent teaching/experience tools.

The overall "intelligent design" of the physical universe, spirit beings and humans outlined in the bible is rather interesting.

God (knowing all possibilities beforehand) made angels/spirits first (powerful minds with powerful bodies) -then made humans who have what is described as a "vile body". A third of the angels (before modern humans) were turned against God by Lucifer -now Satan -and "ascend"ed "above the heights of the clouds" as Satan attempted a coup against God's throne -to "be like the most high".

Satan and the third were then cast back down to Earth in a state of restraint (Tartaros) -where God purposefully allowed interaction between man and demons/angels -for the eventual benefit of all.
Angels and modern humans (with the potential to live forever) alike are initially ignorant and inexperienced -and it was essentially impossible for all to get it right the first time -so God caused a situation/juxtaposition which will bring all the necessary experience and to the necessary decisions.

Man was purposefully made "a little while lower than the angels" -but will eventually judge the affairs of the angels and be given a "glorious body" similar to that which allows Christ (the Word who created all things) to subdue all things unto himself.
Satan and the demons were given powerful bodies and minds, but will be judged -brought low -and Satan will be "laid before the kings of the earth".

The ultimate goal is to create beings who will be personally responsible -and give them extreme power to create throughout the entire universe.

As written, "the heavens" were " not created in vain", but were "formed to be inhabited".

Also written is that the entire creation will be liberated from the bondage to decay by the children of God -as in our glorious bodies will give us power over even cosmic events.
They will also allow us to leave the Earth. We (ok, "they") are finding that inhabiting the universe over time as humans is not feasible -we are so bound to the Earth's ecosystem that we simply could not bring all needed or find it elsewhere.
Yet -we are of a mind to do the presently impossible for a reason.

The nature of Earth's animal life was also for effect -and the nature thereof will also soon change. Man (who will continue on earth with the potential to live forever) will no longer eat animals -and even animals will no longer eat animals.

(Man is different than other physical creatures in that our mental capacity, imagination and creative ability is far greater than necessary to simply be human, make more humans, die, etc.
In fact, those things have made it so that the only answer to human problems is immortality.
Unless we learn lessons and get a "do-over" as permanent beings, we will continue do make similar mistakes generation after generation -until we self-destruct due to increased capability to destroy. Permanent necessary change is not possible because we are not permanent or of the necessary mindset as a unified group. Even if one generation did all things well, the next might not.

The things which seem like "mistakes" or "bad design" inherent in evolution (not adversely affected by man) are actually fine for "lower" life forms which do not consider higher things -and allow for infinite and changing variety/adaptation of life forms -which may be happening all over the universe -without the need for constant management.)

 

[Bear Wild]

Intentional flaws are excellent teaching/experience tools.

The overall "intelligent design" of the physical universe, spirit beings and humans outlined in the bible is rather interesting.

God (knowing all possibilities beforehand) made angels/spirits first (powerful minds with powerful bodies) -then made humans who have what is described as a "vile body". A third of the angels (before modern humans) were turned against God by Lucifer -now Satan -and "ascend"ed "above the heights of the clouds" as Satan attempted a coup against God's throne -to "be like the most high".

Satan and the third were then cast back down to Earth in a state of restraint (Tartaros) -where God purposefully allowed interaction between man and demons/angels -for the eventual benefit of all.
Angels and modern humans (with the potential to live forever) alike are initially ignorant and inexperienced -and it was essentially impossible for all to get it right the first time -so God caused a situation/juxtaposition which will bring all the necessary experience and to the necessary decisions.

Man was purposefully made "a little while lower than the angels" -but will eventually judge the affairs of the angels and be given a "glorious body" similar to that which allows Christ (the Word who created all things) to subdue all things unto himself.
Satan and the demons were given powerful bodies and minds, but will be judged -brought low -and Satan will be "laid before the kings of the earth".

The ultimate goal is to create beings who will be personally responsible -and give them extreme power to create throughout the entire universe.

As written, "the heavens" were " not created in vain", but were "formed to be inhabited".

Also written is that the entire creation will be liberated from the bondage to decay by the children of God -as in our glorious bodies will give us power over even cosmic events.
They will also allow us to leave the Earth. We (ok, "they") are finding that inhabiting the universe over time as humans is not feasible -we are so bound to the Earth's ecosystem that we simply could not bring all needed or find it elsewhere.
Yet -we are of a mind to do the presently impossible for a reason.

The nature of Earth's animal life was also for effect -and the nature thereof will also soon change. Man (who will continue on earth with the potential to live forever) will no longer eat animals -and even animals will no longer eat animals.

(Man is different than other physical creatures in that our mental capacity, imagination and creative ability is far greater than necessary to simply be human, make more humans, die, etc.
In fact, those things have made it so that the only answer to human problems is immortality.
Unless we learn lessons and get a "do-over" as permanent beings, we will continue do make similar mistakes generation after generation -until we self-destruct due to increased capability to destroy. Permanent necessary change is not possible because we are not permanent or of the necessary mindset as a unified group. Even if one generation did all things well, the next might not.

The things which seem like "mistakes" or "bad design" inherent in evolution (not adversely affected by man) are actually fine for "lower" life forms which do not consider higher things -and allow for infinite and changing variety/adaptation of life forms -which may be happening all over the universe -without the need for constant management.)

What do you consider a lower life form? Does this include some forms of humans also?

 

[Etritonakin]

What do you consider a lower life form? Does this include some forms of humans also?

If you mean man (by scientific definition -as man by biblical definition began with Adam [and the bible does indicate others outside Eden]) before they were literally able to consider such things as eternal life, then... technically... yes.

Certain things only become issues when life forms have certain characteristics. For example.... most think nothing (because they can) of trimming trees, pulling weeds and mowing grass due to the fact that they do not feel pain in the same way we do -if at all.

By "lower" I mean in an evolutionary sense (though I believe evolution and creativity are parts of the same whole) -as in more simple life forms which preceded more complex and capable life forms.

 

[Bear Wild]

If you mean man (by scientific definition -as man by biblical definition began with Adam [and the bible does indicate others outside Eden]) before they were literally able to consider such things as eternal life, then... technically... yes.

Certain things only become issues when life forms have certain characteristics. For example.... most think nothing (because they can) of trimming trees, pulling weeds and mowing grass due to the fact that they do not feel pain in the same way we do -if at all.

By "lower" I mean in an evolutionary sense (though I believe evolution and creativity are parts of the same whole) -as in more simple life forms which preceded more complex and capable life forms.

Are dogs, cats, chimpanzees, crows and elephants considered lower life forms?

 

[Etritonakin]

Are dogs, cats, chimpanzees, crows and elephants considered lower life forms?

My point in the post was that the life/death/adaptation cycle is not considered by some life forms -because they are not able to consider it.

The animals you listed could be considered "lower" than man in some ways -because they lack certain things man does not lack.

However, they may be nearer to us in ability to feel physical and emotional pain, to feel loss and miss the dead, etc. -so those things then become considerations -but perhaps not for them in the same way as they are for us.

This is kinda gross, but got me thinking....
There is a cat in our neighborhood that had half his face hanging off for some reason (tried to get it help, but the best I could do was cut off excess dead skin) -and pretty much blind. While apparently not "happy" about it, it didn't skip a beat. It didn't seem to ponder its misfortune, wax philosophical about it, get depressed, worry about how pretty it was, etc. It just went on being a cat (and is almost healed up, fortunately).
I seem to consider the cat's situation more than the cat -and felt worse about it than the cat apparently did -because I have the systems which make it possible. I was also able to help the cat (a vet even more so if the thing was not so elusive) because I had systems which made it possible. Opposable thumbs and scissors, etc., in this case.

I am able to miss my lost pets -and even want them to live forever. A dog may feel loss and miss loved ones, but can a dog even consider the concept of eternal life?

Most would not want a bug to live forever with the same emotion behind it, because the bug is not as complex and capable of the same interaction, emotion, relationship, etc. We also do not mourn in the same way when a creature which cannot suffer in the same way experiences misfortune.

Our human experience with the present state of nature (even our own) has changed us overall and over time. Though not all have thought the same way over time, we have generally gone from a mindset of "It's a dog-eat-dog world -deal with it" to becoming conscientious about the well-being of all creatures -and even the state of "inanimate" natural systems.

We are "higher" than other life forms in that we can become good caretakers to a greater degree -and consider them in ways they can not consider themselves.

(Biblically -now that this lesson has been learned overall, it is "time" for the nature of nature to change. They will not hurt or destroy in all his holy mountain -animals will not even harm each other -[perhaps we will even have the ability to keep certain animals alive] -and we will consider the well-being of all as we go out into the universe.)

 

[Bear Wild]

My point in the post was that the life/death/adaptation cycle is not considered by some life forms -because they are not able to consider it.

The animals you listed could be considered "lower" than man in some ways -because they lack certain things man does not lack.

However, they may be nearer to us in ability to feel physical and emotional pain, to feel loss and miss the dead, etc. -so those things then become considerations -but perhaps not for them in the same way as they are for us.

This is kinda gross, but got me thinking....
There is a cat in our neighborhood that had half his face hanging off for some reason (tried to get it help, but the best I could do was cut off excess dead skin) -and pretty much blind. While apparently not "happy" about it, it didn't skip a beat. It didn't seem to ponder its misfortune, wax philosophical about it, get depressed, worry about how pretty it was, etc. It just went on being a cat (and is almost healed up, fortunately).
I seem to consider the cat's situation more than the cat -and felt worse about it than the cat apparently did -because I have the systems which make it possible. I was also able to help the cat (a vet even more so if the thing was not so elusive) because I had systems which made it possible. Opposable thumbs and scissors, etc., in this case.

I am able to miss my lost pets -and even want them to live forever. A dog may feel loss and miss loved ones, but can a dog even consider the concept of eternal life?

Most would not want a bug to live forever with the same emotion behind it, because the bug is not as complex and capable of the same interaction, emotion, relationship, etc. We also do not mourn in the same way when a creature which cannot suffer in the same way experiences misfortune.

Our human experience with the present state of nature (even our own) has changed us overall and over time. Though not all have thought the same way over time, we have generally gone from a mindset of "It's a dog-eat-dog world -deal with it" to becoming conscientious about the well-being of all creatures -and even the state of "inanimate" natural systems.

We are "higher" than other life forms in that we can become good caretakers to a greater degree -and consider them in ways they can not consider themselves.

(Biblically -now that this lesson has been learned overall, it is "time" for the nature of nature to change. They will not hurt or destroy in all his holy mountain -animals will not even harm each other -[perhaps we will even have the ability to keep certain animals alive] -and we will consider the well-being of all as we go out into the universe.)

Lets start with "we are higher because we can become good caretakers to a greater degree- and consider them in ways they can not consider themselves." Actually we are currently the worst caretakers with little to no value of other life devastating the world not just for us but for all life. In that way we seem to be lower than most other life forms. We are the worst caretakers.
Now about eternal life. Animals I mentioned recognize death and we do no know how they perceive an eternal life so your statement that they do not is not substantiated. Considering how some animal will return to the place where one of theirs have died over years could be seen as recognition of their continuing presence in some form but until we can better communicate with other living organisms do not assume what they may or may not perceive - that is a human centric arrogant assumption.
You did a good thing for the cat but other animals have adopted and cared for a different species and rescued a different species from a dangerous place. They may not be able to use scissors but that does not diminish what they can do.

 

[Etritonakin]

Lets start with "we are higher because we can become good caretakers to a greater degree- and consider them in ways they can not consider themselves." Actually we are currently the worst caretakers with little to no value of other life devastating the world not just for us but for all life. In that way we seem to be lower than most other life forms. We are the worst caretakers.
Now about eternal life. Animals I mentioned recognize death and we do no know how they perceive an eternal life so your statement that they do not is not substantiated. Considering how some animal will return to the place where one of theirs have died over years could be seen as recognition of their continuing presence in some form but until we can better communicate with other living organisms do not assume what they may or may not perceive - that is a human centric arrogant assumption.
You did a good thing for the cat but other animals have adopted and cared for a different species and rescued a different species from a dangerous place. They may not be able to use scissors but that does not diminish what they can do.

Can become -and we are higher in ability, capability, potential -not that we always use it.
Other life forms do not have the same potential because they do not have the necessary characteristics.

I was not speaking of being noble, etc.

We can know -generally -what animals are capable of based on whether or not they have necessary systems in place -just as we are able to understand that certain animals can see, hear and sense differently -though we do not know everything about their experience and thoughts (for those able to have them as such). I never said otherwise -just pointed out that there is a point of development which would allow for such.

I never said they could not recognize death -but if they lack the necessary systems, they would not be able to consider it the way we do -such as in the context of eternal life, resurrection, etc.

I'm not saying other animals don't care for others -just ....AGAIN ...that they would need the necessary systems in place to feel or care IN THE SAME WAY.

When a fly rescues a horse or you have a deep, meaningful conversation about the afterlife with a beetle, do let me know. I'll keep my mind open. That was a bit sarcastic, but I actually believe some animals are capable of more than most do -but not THAT much.

Not having necessary systems -whether opposable thumbs or those associated with the mental, emotional, etc., DOES diminish what they can do.

 

[Bear Wild]

Can become -and we are higher in ability, capability, potential -not that we always use it.
Other life forms do not have the same potential because they do not have the necessary characteristics.

I was not speaking of being noble, etc.

We can know -generally -what animals are capable of based on whether or not they have necessary systems in place -just as we are able to understand that certain animals can see, hear and sense differently -though we do not know everything about their experience and thoughts (for those able to have them as such). I never said otherwise -just pointed out that there is a point of development which would allow for such.

I never said they could not recognize death -but if they lack the necessary systems, they would not be able to consider it the way we do -such as in the context of eternal life, resurrection, etc.

I'm not saying other animals don't care for others -just ....AGAIN ...that they would need the necessary systems in place to feel or care IN THE SAME WAY.

When a fly rescues a horse or you have a deep, meaningful conversation about the afterlife with a beetle, do let me know. I'll keep my mind open. That was a bit sarcastic, but I actually believe some animals are capable of more than most do -but not THAT much.

Not having necessary systems -whether opposable thumbs or those associated with the mental, emotional, etc., DOES diminish what they can do.

You are stuck with your human centric view. You cannot say that what animals do or do not have any concept of after life, resurrection or anything else. Certainty you assume you know thinks you cannot know. We do not know just how much other animal know and anyone who assumes they do know is just making themselves feel superior without any real knowledge. You do actually see yourself superior and that is your mistake. You do not know. Just as much proof that god exists as there is animals believing in afterlife. Humility is a virtue as well as respect. When you finally understand that concept you will understand.

 

[tas8831]

And don't get me started about medicine .....another totally corrupt branch of science. If medical science is so advanced, then tell me where all the cures are....?

If you were not so maliciously ignorant of things like science and medicine, you would not be asking such an ignorant question. Yes, here you are, yet again, making malicious implications premised on your proud ignorance.

Why are millions dying from very preventable diseases or even starvation?

Because of people like you, for starters. With your smears of medical science and your mendacious gab about things like vaccines and your cultish beliefs that drive you away from medicine.

 

[Etritonakin]

You are stuck with your human centric view. You cannot say that what animals do or do not have any concept of after life, resurrection or anything else. Certainty you assume you know thinks you cannot know. We do not know just how much other animal know and anyone who assumes they do know is just making themselves feel superior without any real knowledge. You do actually see yourself superior and that is your mistake. You do not know. Just as much proof that god exists as there is animals believing in afterlife. Humility is a virtue as well as respect. When you finally understand that concept you will understand.

You are free to think and feel so -and to assume my level of humility.

Again..................... Whatever they are able to do.......... Some sort of system must exist to ENable them to do so.

When you finally understand that is what I am saying and not all of the stuff you say I am saying you will understand what I am saying.

 

[Etritonakin]

You are stuck with your human centric view. You cannot say that what animals do or do not have any concept of after life, resurrection or anything else. Certainty you assume you know thinks you cannot know. We do not know just how much other animal know and anyone who assumes they do know is just making themselves feel superior without any real knowledge. You do actually see yourself superior and that is your mistake. You do not know. Just as much proof that god exists as there is animals believing in afterlife. Humility is a virtue as well as respect. When you finally understand that concept you will understand.

You say I have a human centric view.

That would be possible because I have that which is necessary to have any view of that nature at all.

Are you saying that bacteria may have a bacteria centric view -or desire to live the awesome life of bacteria forever?

If so, where is the cutoff point? Does RNA/DNA desire to live forever?

I would agree that "higher" life forms (higher inasmuch as they are essentially built upon the lower/previous/more simple and are more complex, more capable) which are able to imagine MAY be able to understand more than we think -but unless they have similar systems, they cannot think as profoundly as we are able.

If a life form is not self-aware in a complex way and intelligent in a way necessary to understand life, eternity, etc., in relation to itself, how might it imagine itself living forever?