Intelligent Design Isn't So Intelligent

[ChristineM]

Hey! No fair using evidence.

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I was just drinking a glass of water, luckily i didn't spray it onto my well ordered tablet.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Please provide your evidence for your claim because since the first particles began to collide and gravity began to vary the universe has been chaotic.

Does this look ordered?

A perfectly rectangular image posted electronically, with specific byte-by-byte instructions from programmed machines?

Sure it's ordered.

Does order imply to you that there is a god? Why are you so upset at seeing order in a godless, naturalistic universe?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not even the universality of order? Absolutes certainly imply a god.

The order that you see appears to be merely a reaction to basic physical laws. Again, this is an argument from ignorance. "I don't know, therefore God" is about as poor of a line of reasoning that a person can use.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm trying to understand from your perspective. It sounds like you believe genocide is wrong for the past, not just for you.

Is this an absolute belief? Do you believe in absolute morality?

Do you believe morals never evolve or change? Skeptics say all is subject to evolution over time.

If one defines morality based upon what does the least harm, then yes, it is an "absolute morality".

And of course moral beliefs change. As we learn more we can tell more of what hurts another and what dos not. The so called "objective morality" of the Bible is not very objective either.

 

[ChristineM]

A perfectly rectangular image posted electronically, with specific byte-by-byte instructions from programmed machines?

Sure it's ordered.

Does order imply to you that there is a god? Why are you so upset at seeing order in a godless, naturalistic universe?

Oh right, did you want a a round image or a hexagonal one?

They would all display the same data.

Absolutely not, an unordered universe implies that it is unordered. Why, is your claim that the universe is ordered simply a projection of you belief in god without any evidence for such a claim?

And you did not answer my question, instead you threw in a straw man so ill ask again, does that image (produced from real data) look ordered to you?

 

[Skwim]

A perfectly rectangular image posted electronically, with specific byte-by-byte instructions from programmed machines?
Sure it's ordered.

Nice bit of Ignoratio elenchi. You win the fallacy of the week award.

Congrats!

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[gnostic]

Consider this: Wouldn't it be easier to put effort into constructive things? You cannot teach a person who doesn't want to learn.

Maybe...but still...I think it is very important to point out that ID isn’t a scientific field, it doesn’t employ the scientific method to extract evidences and data, therefore it isn’t science, and therefore should be taught in science classrooms of public schools and universities.

I don’t object ID being taught as a theology subject, just as long as it is not as a science subject.

 

[gnostic]

That assumes God did all aspects of the implementation, the creation. My challenge is that the implementation of the design was not done by God alone.

That’s because man created god or gods, who didn’t understand nature, and have superstitious belief that either spirits or gods were responsible for some natural events, like rain, drought, diseases, the sun rising and setting, the moon, wind, seas, etc. Blood have spilled in these gods’ names, to honor the imaginary beings or to appease it rage.

What is amazing that superstitions continued to exist in this day and age.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The order that you see appears to be merely a reaction to basic physical laws. Again, this is an argument from ignorance. "I don't know, therefore God" is about as poor of a line of reasoning that a person can use.

That is the line of reasoning that atheists use to be atheists. "I don't know, therefore, some unknown natural law."

 

[BilliardsBall]

If one defines morality based upon what does the least harm, then yes, it is an "absolute morality".

And of course moral beliefs change. As we learn more we can tell more of what hurts another and what dos not. The so called "objective morality" of the Bible is not very objective either.

The least harm to whom/what? My understanding of the mechanistic evolution you believe has very little to do with "least harm" to anyone but the individual acting.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh right, did you want a a round image or a hexagonal one?

They would all display the same data.

Absolutely not, an unordered universe implies that it is unordered. Why, is your claim that the universe is ordered simply a projection of you belief in god without any evidence for such a claim?

And you did not answer my question, instead you threw in a straw man so ill ask again, does that image (produced from real data) look ordered to you?

The particular image you sent would require a subjective "ordered" or "disordered" on my part, just like I can post to you bell curve data in 100 scientific fields of study and you would subjectively claim "disordered!"

Then again, I see order in beauty and beauty in order! YES, I could clearly see order and design in the image you posted. NO, you won't yet admit order in the universe bothers you. Why?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Nice bit of Ignoratio elenchi. You win the fallacy of the week award.

Congrats!

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It's a fallacy to say that electronic, programmed machines, servers and the internet show evidence of design and order?!

I'm rubber, you're glue, your trophy returns to you!

 

[ChristineM]

The particular image you sent would require a subjective "ordered" or "disordered" on my part, just like I can post to you bell curve data in 100 scientific fields of study and you would subjectively claim "disordered!"

Then again, I see order in beauty and beauty in order! YES, I could clearly see order and design in the image you posted. NO, you won't yet admit order in the universe bothers you. Why?

No it wouldn't. It is a representation of physical observed and measured data.

Please post your curve if you feel it discredits the chaotic filaments and randomness of suns, gas clouds ect observed througout the visible universe. Of course, if it doesn't then don't bother!

Why? Because it does not exist and i am not one to delude myself on the basis of bronze age woo.

What you see is beauty on chaos but are so enamoured by said woo that you are unable to face the evidence.

Edit : of course the individual pixels of the image are ordered however the view they are programmed to represent is not

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is the line of reasoning that atheists use to be atheists. "I don't know, therefore, some unknown natural law."

There is a big difference between theists and atheists in this aspect. Time after time that belief has been justified. The "I don't know, therefore God" belief has never been justified. Actually atheists merely withhold belief until a concept is supported by evidence. They are not afraid to say "I don't know". I have seen far too many theists that are not honest enough to admit that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The least harm to whom/what? My understanding of the mechanistic evolution you believe has very little to do with "least harm" to anyone but the individual acting.

To everyone. And you are making the error of conflating morals and evolution. Why do you do that? Gravity is amoral too. If you fall off of a cliff you will most likely die. That does not make it immoral. It is pointless to bring up gravity in a discussion on morals and it is pointless to bring up evolution in a discussion on morals.

 

[whirlingmerc]

To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:

"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source​

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"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source​

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In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

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CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

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A couple issues..

First, God made a good world now broken due to sin. Some of the problems you mention are consequence of the fall
True in both biology and geology

Second, God made a creationary orchard from many animal types and you see today some remnants of parts of creatures that may have had a different original purpose or a purpose today you don't realize.

I agree with intelligent design in part, but it doesn't explain the origin of death, suffering and pain. For that you need the fall and creation

 

[sun rise]

it doesn't explain the origin of death, suffering and pain. For that you need the fall and creation

Suffering and pain, death are not part of a "fall" in Eastern religious traditions. Death is that time between lives when the past life is reviewed and lessons learned. Pleasure and pain are the outcome of the karma one has accumulated from past lives.

 

[Skwim]

A couple issues..

First, God made a good world now broken due to sin. Some of the problems you mention are consequence of the fall
True in both biology and geology

So how about those not due to original sin?

Second, God made a creationary orchard from many animal types

When you make up words such as "creationary" ya gotta define or at least explain 'em.

and you see today some remnants of parts of creatures that may have had a different original purpose or a purpose today you don't realize.

Such as?

I agree with intelligent design in part,

Just to be clear, you agree that the everything in the universe was intelligently designed?

but it doesn't explain the origin of death, suffering and pain. For that you need the fall and creation

And I assume you feel that because god is a good and loving being, inflicting all of his creation with suffering and pain was a good and loving thing to do.

.

 

[whirlingmerc]

So how about those not due to original sin?


When you make up words such as "creationary" ya gotta define or at least explain 'em.


Such as?


Just to be clear, you agree that the everything in the universe was intelligently designed?


And I assume you feel that because god is a good and loving being, inflicting all of his creation with suffering and pain was a good and loving thing to do.

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Yes, everything in the universe was intelligently designed

Yes, all sin, suffering and death goes back to the fall

A creationary view would have God creating many animal types not everyone coming from the same one big evolutionary tree ( like Darwin's grandfather's claim that 'everything came form sea shells' )

 

[whirlingmerc]

Suffering and pain, death are not part of a "fall" in Eastern religious traditions. Death is that time between lives when the past life is reviewed and lessons learned. Pleasure and pain are the outcome of the karma one has accumulated from past lives.

In a biblical view death entered the world through the sin of man