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Insurers force change on police departments long resistant to it

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This thread is especially for @Revoltingest . It seems that money will do what protests, appeals to virtue and everything else failed to do: change police behavior. Insurance companies jack up rates when there are large awards for cop misbehavior and given the amount of misbehavior, it's a real issue. Clearly insurance companies have take up the "defund the police" banner in a big way.

Insurers force change on police departments long resistant to it

Then, an otherwise silent stakeholder stepped in. The St. Louis Area Insurance Trust risk pool — which provided liability coverage to the city of St. Ann and the police department — threatened to cancel coverage if the department didn’t impose restrictions on its use of police chases. City officials shopped around for alternative coverage but soon learned that costs would nearly double if they did not agree to their insurer’s demands.

Departments with a long history of large civil rights settlements have seen their insurance rates shoot up by 200 to 400 percent over the past three years, according to insurance industry and police experts.
...
“It’s an indictment on St. Ann police and their priorities that the voice of their insurers spoke louder than human lives,” Chasnoff said.
...
Entire states are having to adjust to insurers’ demands. In New Mexico, the largest risk pool — which provides coverage for one-third of the state’s police officers — hired an instructor last year to travel the state and retrain officers in de-escalation skills after private insurance rates climbed by more than 60 percent.
...
In 2009, a local insurance risk pool warned the 60-officer Maywood Police Department in California that it would lose its coverage if it did not enact more than a dozen changes focused on reducing violent encounters with the public. When police failed to do so, the risk pool pulled its coverage, and the department disbanded.
...
“They are asking lots of very detailed questions. ‘Do they use chokeholds? What does their de-escalation training look like?’ If they aren’t doing something on the list, they are required to get it if they want coverage.”
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
This thread is especially for @Revoltingest . It seems that money will do what protests, appeals to virtue and everything else failed to do: change police behavior. Insurance companies jack up rates when there are large awards for cop misbehavior and given the amount of misbehavior, it's a real issue. Clearly insurance companies have take up the "defund the police" banner in a big way.

Insurers force change on police departments long resistant to it

Then, an otherwise silent stakeholder stepped in. The St. Louis Area Insurance Trust risk pool — which provided liability coverage to the city of St. Ann and the police department — threatened to cancel coverage if the department didn’t impose restrictions on its use of police chases. City officials shopped around for alternative coverage but soon learned that costs would nearly double if they did not agree to their insurer’s demands.

Departments with a long history of large civil rights settlements have seen their insurance rates shoot up by 200 to 400 percent over the past three years, according to insurance industry and police experts.
...
“It’s an indictment on St. Ann police and their priorities that the voice of their insurers spoke louder than human lives,” Chasnoff said.
...
Entire states are having to adjust to insurers’ demands. In New Mexico, the largest risk pool — which provides coverage for one-third of the state’s police officers — hired an instructor last year to travel the state and retrain officers in de-escalation skills after private insurance rates climbed by more than 60 percent.
...
In 2009, a local insurance risk pool warned the 60-officer Maywood Police Department in California that it would lose its coverage if it did not enact more than a dozen changes focused on reducing violent encounters with the public. When police failed to do so, the risk pool pulled its coverage, and the department disbanded.
...
“They are asking lots of very detailed questions. ‘Do they use chokeholds? What does their de-escalation training look like?’ If they aren’t doing something on the list, they are required to get it if they want coverage.”
It is the case in many industries too.
If safety procedures are not in place and implemented the insurers will walk away or increase premiums
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
This thread is especially for @Revoltingest . It seems that money will do what protests, appeals to virtue and everything else failed to do: change police behavior. Insurance companies jack up rates when there are large awards for cop misbehavior and given the amount of misbehavior, it's a real issue. Clearly insurance companies have take up the "defund the police" banner in a big way.

Insurers force change on police departments long resistant to it

Then, an otherwise silent stakeholder stepped in. The St. Louis Area Insurance Trust risk pool — which provided liability coverage to the city of St. Ann and the police department — threatened to cancel coverage if the department didn’t impose restrictions on its use of police chases. City officials shopped around for alternative coverage but soon learned that costs would nearly double if they did not agree to their insurer’s demands.

Departments with a long history of large civil rights settlements have seen their insurance rates shoot up by 200 to 400 percent over the past three years, according to insurance industry and police experts.
...
“It’s an indictment on St. Ann police and their priorities that the voice of their insurers spoke louder than human lives,” Chasnoff said.
...
Entire states are having to adjust to insurers’ demands. In New Mexico, the largest risk pool — which provides coverage for one-third of the state’s police officers — hired an instructor last year to travel the state and retrain officers in de-escalation skills after private insurance rates climbed by more than 60 percent.
...
In 2009, a local insurance risk pool warned the 60-officer Maywood Police Department in California that it would lose its coverage if it did not enact more than a dozen changes focused on reducing violent encounters with the public. When police failed to do so, the risk pool pulled its coverage, and the department disbanded.
...
“They are asking lots of very detailed questions. ‘Do they use chokeholds? What does their de-escalation training look like?’ If they aren’t doing something on the list, they are required to get it if they want coverage.”

This is terrifying. Not the one case, but the power being used here.

If private and public organizations are beholden to the edicts of insurance then law and policy can be set by them not the government.

It might have some good days, but such a power should not exist. It will lead to the big banks controlling everything.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
This is terrifying. Not the one case, but the power being used here.

If private and public organizations are beholden to the edicts of insurance then law and policy can be set by them not the government.

It might have some good days, but such a power should not exist. It will lead to the big banks controlling everything.

Sounds good to me.
Why should the police be able to get away with doing what the people can not.
The insurers are in business of insurance. Why should the police be able to charge their miss deeds to the insurance companies. Insurance companies are fed up with picking up the tab.

If the police keep to the law there is no problem.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Sounds good to me.
Why should the police be able to get away with doing what the people can not.
The insurers are in business of insurance. Why should the police be able to charge their miss deeds to the insurance companies. Insurance companies are fed up with picking up the tab.

If the police keep to the law there is no problem.

You missed my entire point. Police reforms are very much needed. What happens when the big backs discover that via insurance they can alter city, state or even federal law?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You missed my entire point. Police reforms are very much needed. What happens when the big backs discover that via insurance they can alter city, state or even federal law?
This has been going on for a very long time. A similar situation is what led to modern building and fire codes.

It's why a lot of electrical appliances have "UL" (Underwriters Laboratories) stamped on them.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This is terrifying. Not the one case, but the power being used here.

If private and public organizations are beholden to the edicts of insurance then law and policy can be set by them not the government.

It might have some good days, but such a power should not exist. It will lead to the big banks controlling everything.

Cops are by and large out of control. It would be better to have decent policing that did not have such outrageous behavior but it seems that insurance companies are the only ones with the power to bring so many rogue cops and departments under control.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
You missed my entire point. Police reforms are very much needed. What happens when the big backs discover that via insurance they can alter city, state or even federal law?

Nope they can not chang law. What they can do is to ensure existing ones are followed.
And also ensure good behaviour of the police.
The law has considerable power over the actions of insurance companies.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Cops are by and large out of control. It would be better to have decent policing that did not have such outrageous behavior but it seems that insurance companies are the only ones with the power to bring so many rogue cops and departments under control.
The city and state both have the power.(guts may be a different issue).

but this practice if continued could put the banks really in charge. That’s a nightmare on par with a bad AI and killer robots.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Nope they can not chang law. What they can do is to ensure existing ones are followed.
And also ensure good behaviour of the police.
The law has considerable power over the actions of insurance companies.

If a law says “must have insurance” and all the insurance guys get together and threaten no coverage unless. They write the laws.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is terrifying. Not the one case, but the power being used here.
Nothing terrifying.
If a local government wants to buy cheaper insurance
for policing, they can't continue acting recklessly, & expect
insurers blithely assume unreasonable & expensive risk.
Government also has the option of doing without insurance,
ie, being "self insured".
So it's a voluntary relationship between insurers & government.
Cops can clean up their act, & find reasonable rates. Or keep
abusing civilians, & reap the costly consequences. Praise be
the power of the free market.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If a law says “must have insurance” and all the insurance guys get together and threaten no coverage unless. They write the laws.
This would be government imposing the conditions
on you....not the insurers.
Consider that insurance companies must be profitable
to survive. If you behave in a manner that increases
their risk, you must pay for that. You don't have the
right to be reckless or abusive, & expect someone
else to give you low rates, and pick up the tab.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
This would be government imposing the conditions
on you....not the insurers.
Consider that insurance companies must be profitable
to survive. If you behave in a manner that increases
their risk, you must pay for that. You don't have the
right to be reckless or abusive, & expect someone
else to give you low rates, and pick up the tab.

It a bypass on government.

Your politics is high risk, your industry is not green enough etc.


I love a truly free market, but insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries.

The regulations to block new comers etc mean that if a large group makes a cabal people are behold to the insurance company.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It a bypass on government.

Your politics is high risk, your industry is not green enough etc.


I love a truly free market, but insurance is one of the most heavily regulated industries.

The regulations to block new comers etc mean that if a large group makes a cabal people are behold to the insurance company.
I don't follow this.
Are you advocating that insuring police shouldn't
have rates or coverage dependent upon cop conduct?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I don't follow this.
Are you advocating that insuring police shouldn't
have rates or coverage dependent upon cop conduct?



Im saying that when policies are dictated by insurance providers that they will have scary levels of control.

Insurance is in bed with government to start with.


Many job/ situations like doctors are required to have insurance. So if the power goes to their head what’s to stop them from demanding people don’t use substance X attend church Y vote for candidate Z?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Im saying that when policies are dictated by insurance providers that they will have scary levels of control.
If insurers cannot dictate conduct of the insured,
& the insured can get cheap rates even when
they commit crimes that cost the insurer, that's
even scarier, ie, total impunity for bad cops.
Insurance is in bed with government to start with.
Cops are government.
Many job/ situations like doctors are required to have insurance. So if the power goes to their head what’s to stop them from demanding people don’t use substance X attend church Y vote for candidate Z?
That's a highly unrealistic worst case scenario.
But what you propose is a total disconnect between
rates & what the insured does.
There must be accountability for behavior of the insured.
If they are reckless on the job, they should pay more.
They might even make it so no one wants to provide
them with insurance. Cops need to take responsibility
for their actions, & clean up their act.
 
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