Inference and Assumption

[John1.12]

In Conversation with other Christians and even non Christians ,it seems as though a lot of what they believe is not always what the bible actually says.
What i mean by this is when someone will say the bible ' teaches ' this and that ,when this is often at the cost of what the bible actually SAYS . A lot of the time its usually 'inference ' . " oh I know it doesn't say such and such ,but this is what it really means. And I'm not talking about difficult things like the trinity ,in which we will struggle with as its something that we do not experience in our limited dimension/ experience. I'm referring to the basics , the essentials in which we should expect God to have wanted to be understood plainly .
Syllogism, Inference , assumption and deduction seems to be the slippery approach to the bible in which we can almost make the verses say what we want because we reading INTO the verses instead of allowing the bible to SAY what it means .
Non Christians do this when they already have a presupposition/ paradigm / worldview ,and they approach the bible and instead of reading what the bible SAYS they will impose an interpretation because they feel its inferring something they already believe . Sadly Christians also do this . Were all not immune from presuppositions and our minds tend to fill in what we already assume through bias ect . But let's test if we believe what we believe by what the bible SAYS .
Take what you believe about the bible and see if what you believe there is a verse or verses that SAY what you believe . Of course context matters . The who , what, when why and where questions apply and normal reading comprehension .
You can also test me if I can back up what I believe by demonstrating by what the bible SAYS and not always what is inferred or assumed .

 

[Thief]

assumption is a tool .....if well applied.....

for example.....Someone had to be First
in mind and heart

think about it

 

[John1.12]

assumption is a tool .....if well applied.....

for example.....Someone had to be First
in mind and heart

think about it

Could you elaborate, i may not be the brightest lol

 

[Thief]

Could you elaborate, i may not be the brightest lol

some lines of thought lead to a corner.....no way out
a choice has to be made

for example.....which came first?
Spirit?
or substance?

given what we know of reality

choose

 

[John1.12]

some lines of thought lead to a corner.....no way out
a choice has to be made

for example.....which came first?
Spirit?
or substance?

given what we know of reality

choose

Ahh cool I get that . But let's say God is responsible for the Bible . That it is from God ( of course thats what I do believe) and that God surely would want to communicate clearly. Just like when I tell my children something I don't want them to misunderstand like with cryptic messages so that they need to use inference. No I try mean what I say and say what I mean . I believe the bible is no different.
What i notice is with some when it comes to the bible its like all of a sudden normal reading comprehension flies out the window." oh I know it SAYS such and such ,but what it REALLY means is ...."

 

[Thief]

Ahh cool I get that . But let's say God is responsible for the Bible . That it is from God ( of course thats what I do believe) and that God surely would want to communicate clearly. Just like when I tell my children something I don't want them to misunderstand like with cryptic messages so that they need to use inference. No I try mean what I say and say what I mean . I believe the bible is no different.
What i notice is with some when it comes to the bible its like all of a sudden normal reading comprehension flies out the window." oh I know it SAYS such and such ,but what it REALLY means is ...."

and here then is the problem in a nutshell

YOU..........if you are to lead anyone else
must be certain.....even with assumption in play
that what you speak is correct

and you should begin......in the beginning

 

[John1.12]

some lines of thought lead to a corner.....no way out
a choice has to be made

for example.....which came first?
Spirit?
or substance?

given what we know of reality

choose

//some lines of thought lead to a corner.....no way out
a choice has to be made// i like this though , I think i may borrow it lol

 

[Thief]

//some lines of thought lead to a corner.....no way out
a choice has to be made// i like this though , I think i may borrow it lol

and please send all that doubt it.....MY WAY

hehehehehe

 

[John1.12]

and here then is the problem in a nutshell

YOU..........if you are to lead anyone else
must be certain.....even with assumption in play
that what you speak is correct

and you should begin......in the beginning

Could you give an example from the bible ?

 

[Thief]

Could you give an example from the bible ?

in the beginning......

and you are given the notion of Spirit
moving about in what is called .....the void

the heavens and earth are without form.......and void

science would have you believe.....nothing moves with out something to move it
science would have you believe.....a primordial singularity

what do you assume?.......came first

 

[John1.12]

in the beginning......

and you are given the notion of Spirit
moving about in what is called .....the void

the heavens and earth are without form.......and void

science would have you believe.....nothing moves with out something to move it
science would have you believe.....a primordial singularity

what do you assume?.......came first

I just believe as it reads .

 

[Thief]

I just believe as it reads .

as time goes by....you will find
reciting quotations will be insuffcient

that nagging question.....why daddy?.......why?

will be there

 

[PureX]

In Conversation with other Christians and even non Christians ,it seems as though a lot of what they believe is not always what the bible actually says.

And rightfully so. God is not the Bible, and the Bible is not God. The Bible is a collection of men's writings about how they idealized God. And should be taken as a source of contemplation, discussion, and debate (as it was intended by the authors, and users, originally).

ALL text is interpretive. Reading is the act of interpreting symbols on a page. Interpretation is both paramount, and unavoidable. And as such it would be a grave error to ignore it as a fact of our literary reality.

Syllogism, inference, assumption and deduction seems to be the slippery approach to the bible in which we can almost make the verses say what we want because we reading INTO the verses instead of allowing the bible to SAY what it means .

Yes, again, this is called "reading the text". The act of interpreting collections of symbols on a page. And it does require those mechanisms you mentioned, as well as others.

You can also test me if I can back up what I believe by demonstrating by what the bible SAYS and not always what is inferred or assumed .

What "it says" IS being inferred and assumed. There's no avoiding this. Words are not static objects embodying physical information. They are meaningless splotches of ink on paper until they can be assumed to express some image, idea, or meaning, via a very large, pre-conceived system of inter-related inferences. Even just one single word infers a whole range of interrelated ideas. And as these single words get placed in relation to others, the possible inferences expand exponentially. And our minds have to weave through this on-flowing river on multiple inferences to follow a 'thread' of thought to it's reasoned conclusion.

 

[John1.12]

And rightfully so. God is not the Bible, and the Bible is not God. The Bible is a collection of men's writings about how they idealized God. And should be taken as a source of contemplation, discussion, and debate (as it was intended by the authors, and users, originally).

ALL text is interpretive. Reading is the act of interpreting symbols on a page. Interpretation is both paramount, and unavoidable. And as such it would be a grave error to ignore it as a fact of our literary reality.
Yes, again, this is called "reading the text". The act of interpreting collections of symbols on a page. And it does require those mechanisms you mentioned, as well as others.
What "it says" IS being inferred and assumed. There's no avoiding this. Words are not static objects embodying physical information. They are meaningless splotches of ink on paper until they can be assumed to express some image, idea, or meaning, via a very large, pre-conceived system of inter-related inferences. Even just one single word infers a whole range of interrelated ideas. And as these single words get placed in relation to others, the possible inferences expand exponentially. And our minds have to weave through this on-flowing river on multiple inferences to follow a 'thread' of thought to it's reasoned conclusion.

I just read what you wrote and through normal reading comprehension I understood you . You were able to communicate what you meant. Why is the bible different ?

 

[John1.12]

I just read what you wrote and through normal reading comprehension I understood you . You were able to communicate what you meant. Why is the bible different ?

You claim
///The Bible is a collection of men's writings about how they idealized God. And should be taken as a source of contemplation, discussion, and debate (as it was intended by the authors, and users, originally).//
Says who ? The bible does not say this about itself. None of the authors say this is how things should be understood.
The Author John literally tells us why he's writing for example .
1 John 5:13

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
Many books and epistles say a similar things as why they are writing ,to whom ,when and where ect
So your doing exactly my point . Can you show anywhere in the bible it says what your saying ? If not why do you believe that ?

 

[sojourner]

let's say God is responsible for the Bible

That’s an assumption on your part.

and that God surely would want to communicate clearly

That’s also an assumption on your part.

I believe the bible is no different

What you believe is irrelevant. What is is what’s important.

What i notice is with some when it comes to the bible its like all of a sudden normal reading comprehension flies out the window." oh I know it SAYS such and such ,but what it REALLY means is ...."

The Bible is filled with metaphor, allegory, poetry, myth. All recognizable and definitive literary genres and devices. All of these genres and devices require interpretation. Add to that the fact that the Bible spans several ancient and foreign cultures, and is written in languages that are also ancient and foreign. Additionally, the Bible has undergone a lot of redaction by many editors. All of this requires more than just rudimentary “reading comprehension” to understand what is being said.

All you have is one translation into English of the texts — that aren’t even “original,” since most of the stories began as orally transmitted information. All you can really say is, “My translation says thus-and-so.” And that’s just not good enough to get us through the layers of intended meaning.

 

[sojourner]

by demonstrating by what the bible SAYS and not always what is inferred or assumed .

What the Bible appears to say is not always what the Bible says for the reasons given in the last post. To give the Bible a surface reading is to infer and assume much.

 

[John1.12]

That’s an assumption on your part.

That’s also an assumption on your part.


What you believe is irrelevant. What is is what’s important.

The Bible is filled with metaphor, allegory, poetry, myth. All recognizable and definitive literary genres and devices. All of these genres and devices require interpretation. Add to that the fact that the Bible spans several ancient and foreign cultures, and is written in languages that are also ancient and foreign. Additionally, the Bible has undergone a lot of redaction by many editors. All of this requires more than just rudimentary “reading comprehension” to understand what is being said.

All you have is one translation into English of the texts — that aren’t even “original,” since most of the stories began as orally transmitted information. All you can really say is, “My translation says thus-and-so.” And that’s just not good enough to get us through the layers of intended meaning.

//Additionally, the Bible has undergone a lot of redaction by many editors.//
Assumption / opinion. Wrong .

Then everything you say after this is just the usual regurgitation from the ' ive never read the bible myself but I've been told this by a boffin ' handbook .

 

[John1.12]

What the Bible appears to say is not always what the Bible says for the reasons given in the last post. To give the Bible a surface reading is to infer and assume much.

This literally makes no sense . Again if you read the bible as if its not true then what do you expect ?

 

[sojourner]

//Additionally, the Bible has undergone a lot of redaction by many editors.//
Assumption / opinion. Wrong .

Then everything you say after this is just the usual regurgitation from the ' ive never read the bible myself but I've been told this by a boffin ' handbook .

No, this is the result of years of graduate study in the Bible, and years of scholastic inquiry and discovery into the nature of the Bible. I’ve read the Bible more than you can possibly imagine.