Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
But Jesus Christ himself was baptized -- by water, too. He said he was doing so "to fulfill all righteousness." Of course it's what's in your heart that counts. But if it was only what was in your heart that counted, Jesus would not have made sure that He got baptized. He also said specifically, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." It doesn't sound like an optional thing to me, if you know what I mean.jgallandt said:Steve, let me add this. I believe that Baptism is more symbolic then anything else. It's what's in your heart that counts, not the water.
Oh, don't go putting on the flameproof suit! I'm not all that mean, am I?Kat, I won't disagree with that. But, (puts flame proof suit on) I also believe that Baptism is just a ritual. It is not needed to get to heaven.
And why would God extend Grace to those who have not sinned?Katzpur said:God's grace extends to those who can believe and repent of their sins. It also extends to children who have not reached the age of accountability and who therefore are without sin.
jgallandt said:Lets say that child, now of the age of reason is on the way to church to be Baptized. Dies in a car crash. Good child. Raised with a good Christian heart. Loves God and Jesus. Would that child not make it to heaven? I can't picture that child not going to heaven.
Jesus was FULL of grace and truth and he never sinned! Grace is being just like God.Victor said:And why would God extend Grace to those who have not sinned?
~Victor
I was probably not using the word "grace" in exactly the same way you were. I believe that Jesus Christ's atonement accomplished more than redeeming us of our sins. It also made it possible for every human being who has ever lived to be resurrected. This blessing is given to all who have ever lived -- both the righteous and the wicked. It is through God's grace that we will live again. He has promised that little children who die before the age of accountability will not only be saved from the permanance of death, but will receive the fullness of His glory. In offering them His grace, He is giving them Eternal Life in His presence without expecting anything of them in return. That sounds very much like grace to me. The rest of us -- those who are in a position to be able to recognize when we have sinned and repent when we do -- are under an obligation to do so. When we are baptised, we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior. This is necessary for us because, unlike children, we have sinned.Victor said:And why would God extend Grace to those who have not sinned?
~Victor
You sound catholic...NetDoc said:Jesus was FULL of grace and truth and he never sinned! Grace is being just like God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. NIV
One quick question for you, Jeff...jgallandt said:Kat, I agree that's what the Bible states. But it never gives a criteria for whom can Baptize. I believe that is a ritual, for the benefit of man, to take something that he can't see, (recieving the Holy Spirit) and putting it in a way for him to see. It's one thing to say it, but sinks in better by doing it, if that makes sense.
I don't see a single conversion in Acts where it was not an integral part. God has asked us to do something that makes no sense to us, just to prove our desire to obey him. It's faith personified and according to the scriptures, quite neccesary.jgallandt said:NetDoc, I always value your opinions. Let me ask you this. Do you believe that you need to be Baptized by water to be saved?
I tend to agree Jeff. I believe God knows what is in our hearts, and that a baptism carried out just for the sake of accomodating culture (which does happen, I have seen it) will have less value than a good prayer at the appropriate moment.jgallandt said:NetDoc, I agree. That's why I believe it's a good idea to be Baptized, but it's not 100.%, got to be done. I believe God KNOWS what's in our heart. That is what is important.
In the OT, infants entered into convenants with God through the parents/guardians [circumcision]. The NT is no different. Your concept of grace suffices for the conversation at hand. If you could be so kind as to address my observation that I noted to ND.Katzpur said:I was probably not using the word "grace" in exactly the same way you were. I believe that Jesus Christ's atonement accomplished more than redeeming us of our sins. It also made it possible for every human being who has ever lived to be resurrected. This blessing is given to all who have ever lived -- both the righteous and the wicked. It is through God's grace that we will live again. He has promised that little children who die before the age of accountability will not only be saved from the permanance of death, but will receive the fullness of His glory. In offering them His grace, He is giving them Eternal Life in His presence without expecting anything of them in return. That sounds very much like grace to me. The rest of us -- those who are in a position to be able to recognize when we have sinned and repent when we do -- are under an obligation to do so. When we are baptised, we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior. This is necessary for us because, unlike children, we have sinned.
(Lunch hour's over. See ya'll after work.)
Kathryn
I think what is being missed here is that God's Grace is what is sufficing. NOT YOUR BELIEF. Why do you think God used WATER?michel said:I tend to agree Jeff. I believe God knows what is in our hearts, and that a baptism carried out just for the sake of accomodating culture (which does happen, I have seen it) will have less value than a good prayer at the appropriate moment.
1 is symbolic, the later is not. Having trouble explaining this. LOL. The best example off the top of my head would be the last supper. Jesus broke bread and said "This is my body" Symbolic. cont...Katzpur said:One quick question for you, Jeff...
What do you see as the distinction between being baptized of water and being baptized of the spirit -- since Jesus said we must do both?
Water is what people associate with cleansing. Why do Catholics sprinkle with water when Jesus was emersed?Victor said:I think what is being missed here is that God's Grace is what is sufficing. NOT YOUR BELIEF. Why do you think God used WATER?
~Victor
Because the water is what's important. It will cleanse you whether you sprinkle or emerse. If you want more historical data for this, let me know.jgallandt said:Water is what people associate with cleansing. Why do Catholics sprinkle with water when Jesus was emersed?