Infant Baptism and the Atonement

[jeffrey]

Because the water is what's important. It will cleanse you whether you sprinkle or emerse. If you want more historical data for this, let me know.

~Victor

I can sprinkle a couple drops of water on a dirty pan, but it ain't coming clean! That's why I say it's symbolic. It works, but it's a ritual.

 

[jeffrey]

I can sprinkle a couple drops of water on a dirty pan, but it ain't coming clean! That's why I say it's symbolic. It works, but it's a ritual.

Let me add that our son was sprinkled with water, and there is no doubt in my mind it served the same purpose as if he had been emersed.

 

[Quiddity]

I can sprinkle a couple drops of water on a dirty pan, but it ain't coming clean! That's why I say it's symbolic. It works, but it's a ritual.

It's matter cleansing non-matter Jeff. A little bit of Grace is sufficient for us all. But I certainly wouldn't recommend that you sprinkle your dishes. If you do decide to do that, let me know so I won't eat from your dishes..

The point being that it does the job that it needs to and some catholic parishes still do the immersion.

~Victor

 

[jeffrey]

Victor, we have a dishwasher, not sure how much water it uses! I still believe it's what's in the heart, and I know you have God in yours, so may God bless you.

 

[Katzpur]

In the OT, infants entered into convenants with God through the parents/guardians [circumcision]. The NT is no different.

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. A covenant is a contract willingly entered into by two parties. An infant can't enter into such a contract. God holds people responsible for keeping the terms of the covenants they make with Him. He would not hold someone responsible for entering into a covenant if he had not been in a position to do so of his own free will and choice. For a child's parents to do so for him is meaningless. They would be making promises and commitments that their child would be responsible for keeping. Perhaps you could show me where the scriptures describe circumcision as a covenant entered into between the infant being circumcised and God.

Your concept of grace suffices for the conversation at hand.

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by this.

If you could be so kind as to address my observation that I noted to ND.

Are you referring to these statements?

So believing isn't required to receive grace? :bounce
And what is baptism?

Yes, believing and baptism are both required. They are like two blades of a pair of scissors. The scissors won't cut unless both blades are present.

Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins is the first ordinance of the Savior's gospel. It is required ordinance, and must be performed by one holding the proper authority -- as John the Baptist did. It is by baptism that we enter into the covenant relationship I described. We promise to obey his commandments and to repent whenever we fall short. In turn, He promises to be our advocate with the Father and to take upon himself the guilt resulting from our sins.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, we have a dishwasher, not sure how much water it uses! I still believe it's what's in the heart, and I know you have God in yours, so may God bless you.

I'm not disgreeing that it's in the heart. But do understand that God extends first [Grace in Baptism], you respond second.

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

I believe it's a good idea to be Baptized, but it's not 100.%, got to be done. I believe God KNOWS what's in our heart. That is what is important.

I tend to agree Jeff. I believe God knows what is in our hearts, and that a baptism carried out just for the sake of accomodating culture (which does happen, I have seen it) will have less value than a good prayer at the appropriate moment.

Michel, while I'll agree that a baptism done "for the sake of accomodating culture" is pretty pointless. However, I'd like to ask you and Jeff what your reasons are for rejecting what the scriptures actually say in favor of what you think they ought to say.

I'm also curious as to why you believe Jesus Christ himself was baptised. I doubt it was "just for the sake of accomodating culture," and I'm pretty sure that His Father knew beyond a doubt what was in His heart.

Why would Jesus have said that we must be born both of water and of the spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God, and why would he have said that he who believes and is baptised shall be saved if He didn't mean it? Why would God say, "You must do this," if He really meant, "if it's convenient and you happen to be so inclined." I'm sorry to be so persistent, but that doesn't make sense to me.

NetDoc nit the nail on the head in his post. We need to be baptized because God told us we need to be baptized. We can't just ignore His commandment and try to say it doesn't matter. Well, maybe we can, because you two do. You just need to help me understand how you feel comfortable doing so.

Kathryn

 

[jeffrey]

Becoming to the age of reason is not something that happens overnight. The child does not wake up one morning and declare, "I'm at the age of reason. hurry I NEED to be Baptized!" Just as I am sure that children have died, that where good kids, that had not been Baptized for various reasons including their parents not letting them, that have recieved the Holy Spirit and are in Heaven today.

 

[Katzpur]

Becoming to the age of reason is not something that happens overnight. The child does not wake up one morning and declare, "I'm at the age of reason. hurry I NEED to be Baptized!" Just as I am sure that children have died, that where good kids, that had not been Baptized for various reasons including their parents not letting them, that have recieved the Holy Spirit and are in Heaven today.

Yes, it was on behalf of individuals such as these that the early Christians were baptized by proxy.

 

[michel]

Michel, while I'll agree that a baptism done "for the sake of accomodating culture" is pretty pointless. However, I'd like to ask you and Jeff what your reasons are for rejecting what the scriptures actually say in favor of what you think they ought to say.

I'm also curious as to why you believe Jesus Christ himself was baptised. I doubt it was "just for the sake of accomodating culture," and I'm pretty sure that His Father knew beyond a doubt what was in His heart.

Why would Jesus have said that we must be born both of water and of the spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God, and why would he have said that he who believes and is baptised shall be saved if He didn't mean it? Why would God say, "You must do this," if He really meant, "if it's convenient and you happen to be so inclined." I'm sorry to be so persistent, but that doesn't make sense to me.

NetDoc nit the nail on the head in his post. We need to be baptized because God told us we need to be baptized. We can't just ignore His commandment and try to say it doesn't matter. Well, maybe we can, because you two do. You just need to help me understand how you feel comfortable doing so.

Kathryn

I don't say that baptism isn't important; I was just commenting on the fact that a baptism just to please others has less value IMO to a prayer asking God to be accepted as one of his flock.

I personally agree with baptism, but here in England , it seems it is more often than not a ceremony just to please the Grand Mothers.(well those to which I have been invited).

 

[Quiddity]

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. A covenant is a contract willingly entered into by two parties. An infant can't enter into such a contract. God holds people responsible for keeping the terms of the covenants they make with Him. He would not hold someone responsible for entering into a covenant if he had not been in a position to do so of his own free will and choice. For a child's parents to do so for him is meaningless. They would be making promises and commitments that their child would be responsible for keeping. Perhaps you could show me where the scriptures describe circumcision as a covenant entered into between the infant being circumcised and God.

Genesis 17:11 - tells us that it's a sign of a covenant between the Israelites and God.
We know that infants were 8 days old when when they were circumcised (Genesis 17:12)
What choice did they have in the matter Katzpur?
Do you think your son would think he had no choice because you made decisions for him for eighteen years? Although not a convenant, the analogy is a fair one.
And later it points to circumcision being replaced by baptism (Col 2:11-12)

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by this.
Are you referring to these statements?

Yup..

Yes, believing and baptism are both required. They are like two blades of a pair of scissors. The scissors won't cut unless both blades are present.

What exactly isn't working if we baptize infants? Grace?

Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins is the first ordinance of the Savior's gospel. It is required ordinance, and must be performed by one holding the proper authority -- as John the Baptist did. It is by baptism that we enter into the covenant relationship I described.

And as I have shown you above that infants were brought into covenants and when old enough had the right to opt out. They still do now. Even an adult that that get's baptized can decide to call it quits. I see no difference.

We promise to obey his commandments and to repent whenever we fall short. In turn, He promises to be our advocate with the Father and to take upon himself the guilt resulting from our sins.

He advocates you first [extends grace], and then you decide to nuture and respond.

~Victor

 

[jeffrey]

Kat, yes, it's a pact with God. It's signing on the dotted line. I can buy a car, agree to pay so much, sign the paper. But the paper is not the car. I can also buy the car, not sign anything. agree to pay for it. Does that still not make the car mine? The pact is a symbol of the pact, but it's not the pact itself. If you do not live up to your end of the deal the piece of paper is worthless.

 

[Evenstar]

Good point michel, thats just what it is in England.

The reason my children were baptized was because I found out in a church in England, if you were NOT baptized you were buried on a piece of scrap land behind the church. This land was not tended to at all.​

Now why do churches make second class citizens of people who are not baptized? (including children)

 

[jeffrey]

Kat, your misunderstanding what I'm saying. Is it good to be Baptized? Of course it is. But it's still a ritual. A ritual for OUR benefit. Does it mean you won't get to heaven if your are not? No, it does not. If a person does not want to be Baptized, more then likely, he is not ready to make that commitment. But I'm sure there are good people in heaven that for some reason, where not Baptized.

 

[jeffrey]

Yes, it was on behalf of individuals such as these that the early Christians were baptized by proxy.

But what about today? according to you, they won't make it to heaven.

 

[jeffrey]

I'm not disgreeing that it's in the heart. But do understand that God extends first [Grace in Baptism], you respond second.

~Victor

Grace in Baptism, yes, but not exclusive to.

 

[Quiddity]

Grace in Baptism, yes, but not exclusive to.

You lost me here Jeff.

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

But what about today? according to you, they won't make it to heaven.

Oh, but they will. It's the same today as in ancient times. Like the first-century Christians, we perform this ordinance on behalf of our deceased ancestors who did not receive it during their lifetimes. If they accept it, it is as if they were baptised themselves. We believe that when Jesus said baptism was a required of us, He meant what He said. On the other hand, God has provided all of His children with the opportunity to receive this ordinance, whether in this life or by proxy as they await the resurrection.

 

[jeffrey]

Victor, All I'm saying is that Baptism is a rite, a ritual, a ceremony, for our benefit. Just as when you drink the wine in church. It's symbolic. You picture the wine being Christ's blood. But it is only wine. But because of your mindset, and you believe it's Christ's blood, it is Christ entering your body. Lets say someone pretended to be a Priest, gave you grape juice, but you still believed,.,

 

[jeffrey]

Do you not believe that you would still get the same benefit? Because it's what's in your heart that matters?