Infallibility

[Trailblazer]

I added that especially to show that irrational superstitious or more mythical belief systems may also lead to the rejection of natural phenomena that cannot be changed. In both these religions this seems to be the case. It could be coincidence but I don't think so, fundamentalist Islam is no different.
Tantra is more in line with rationality, science and working with nature instead of trying to ignore or oppose it in an unnatural way.

I do not believe that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon that cannot be changed.

Homosexuals Admit "Sexual Orientation" Can and Does Change

Some people with unwanted homosexual attractions turn to their faith for help. Some conservative Christians believe that homosexuality is a result of a broken world and that faith can change sexual orientation. Some report that their sexual orientation has been changed through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Sexual orientation change efforts - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tantra is more in line with rationality, science and working with nature instead of trying to ignore or oppose it in an unnatural way.

This is what we also beleive. Baha'u'llah has said that all religion must conform with science, or it is superstition.

The key here is we must understand that both science and religuon are organic and must grow together for the health of both to blossom.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

So when did this idea that a scripture or a prophet or a messenger or a pope is absolutely perfect in every way come into practice? Has it been there since early times, or is it more recent? What purpose does it serve?

What or who do you consider infallible, if anything?

As an eastern thinker and logical person, I don't get infallibility. To be clear, I understand what it means, I just don't get how anyone else could believe in it, yet I know some do. I just shake my head and go 'really?'

Here's an example. "I'm infallible. I said I was infallible, and since I'm infallible, it is only logical to conclude I'm infallible. I mean, how could an infallible person claiming to be infallible possibly be wrong?"

Does this sound logical to you?

Did Muhammad claim to be infallible, please?
If so, please quote from Quran- the first and the foremost source of guidance of the truthful religion, whatever the denomination, please.
Regards
_____________
Quran
[17:94]
‘Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.’
[17:95]
And nothing has prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them save that they said, ‘Has Allah sent a man as a Messenger?’
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 17: Bani Isra'il

(17:93:25) basharan a human قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنْتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَسُولًا
(17:94:14) basharan a human وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا إِذْ جَاءَهُمُ الْهُدَىٰ إِلَّا أَنْ قَالُوا أَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَسُولًا
(18:110:4) basharun (am) a man قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَٰهُكُمْ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ

 

[paarsurrey]

Christian fundamentalists have it that the bible
is infallible, and that god guides their intrrpretation-
effectively making them infalluble.

Did Jesus claim that he was infallible, please?
If yes, please quote from him, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Yeah. How can there be evil? How can things happen that I don't want to happen? The only infallible does lots of things I don't like, at least at the moment. I'm guessing all things are appropriate. Doesn't make me a happy camper lots of times. Interpreters are almost always fallible. Guess I have to include me.

"Interpreters are almost always fallible." Unquote

I agree with it, not always but sometimes or most of the times, individually or collectively, as they are human beings, susceptible to committing errors.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

For me, Siva wasn't a person, or an anthropomorphic God, so the question isn't applicable. For me, the Lingam is the closest I can get to what Siva is.

But as for perfection, I do believe the world is in a perfect state of evolution. Maya is there, but at the core of everything, Brahman, the unmanifest, is perfect. But that's far different than infallibility from the OP.

"Siva wasn't a person, or an anthropomorphic God, so the question isn't applicable. For me, the Lingam is the closest I can get to what Siva is."

It is a wrong notion. G-d is not "anthropomorphic".
If yes, kindly quote from Him, please.

Regards
_____________
[42:12]
He is the Maker of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you pairs of your own selves, and of the cattle also He has madepairs. He multiplies you therein. There is nothing whatever like unto Him; and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 42: Al-Shura

 

[paarsurrey]

It's to justify the actions of the prophet or incarnation. If the incarnation or prophet was an every day Joe Smo just like the believer, they dont see the divinity because they, themselves, see themselves as imperfect.

Since they see themselves as imperfect, it doesn't make sense to worship something like them. So the idea is to create perfection from the idea of what the believer what's that prophet to be (making reality of whats written), using what's written to confirm their reality, and therefore, whatever worship they have is not only for the divinity of the prophet but confirmed by the words their prophet said.

It's a circle of sorts.

You are imperfect
You believe the prophet is not like you; he is perfect
You follow the prophet to be like him in perfection
Who, in turn, redirects you to confirm how imperfect you are to continue to follow him.

It's based on imperfection of the believer. That's why gods are Higher Than, Greather Than, More complex than the human mind, and so forth. They need perfection to be motivates to be within perfection itself. Perfection meaning god.

"It's to justify the actions of the prophet" Unquote

Muhammad did not claim to be infallible. So, it is not applicable to the truthful religion, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Infallibility in a prophet ? Why are prophets assumed to perfect ?
Does everthing that a prophet deems really happen, even to be close to accurate ?
I don't see any comparison to prophets as to infallibiity. They can only predict guesses afterall.
And the bible is not infallible, not even close...we're still waiting for the 2nd riseing aren't we ?
Not to mention the uncounted dozens of other predictions and promises.
Infallible....to be perfect....like an imagined `god`...that kills firstborn...and kills everyone in floods.
We could go on and on couldn't we ?
Nothing is infallible...and I'm out of beer !
Just musing here about impossibillities, and other nonsense !
See you later...gotta get some more beer.

"See you later" Unquote

Has the "later" since come and one is finished drinking?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Baha'i prophet, according to Baha's is indeed infallible. Not only that but he declared it for himself. There are others as well.

I'm with you. You have extra beer?

Is it so really, please?
Is there a person here belonging to Bahaism to clarify in this regards, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

God's word in the original manuscripts is infallible and we have high confidence in the manuscripts we have in ensamble.

Paul corrected Peter in Galatians. There were times in church history the pope accepted correction, one case being excommunicating a country because they celebrated Easter on a different week... a Bishop told him that should not be cause for such as action particularly Easter and he accepted correction

Protestants have never agreed that church councils and synods are inflalible rather a good check and balance usually... Presbyterian and Reformed Baptists tend to favor decisions by a pulrailty of elders or people and feel its a good way to decide things but not asserting infallibility

"God's word in the original manuscripts is infallible" Unquote

Well the Pauline Christianity people don't have anything written by even Jesus, not to speak of G-d. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you think Lord Shiva is not able to create a human who is infallible?

Capability of G-d is not the question, my friend. The question is about the messenger. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I personally have investigated the writings, teachings and life of Bahaullah, and found no errors in them.

Did Bahaullah as a messenger of G-d claim to be infallible is the question, please?
If he claimed to be infallible as a messenger (only), then please quote from him. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes that is the Baha'i party line. You investigate from sources you are told to investigate from. I know it too well. However, this thread is about infallibility, which certainly isn't exclusively a Baha'i topic. When you first encountered the idea that your guy is perfect in every way, it was just a 'Yeah, that makes so much sense."?

Even in Hinduism we have it. For example, certain followers of Satya Sai Baba, the more zealous ones, will tell you straight up that he was infallible. My Gurus, on the other hand, would speak against such cut and dry proclamations.

"My Gurus, on the other hand, would speak against such cut and dry proclamations." Unquote

One's Gurus are smart. A human should not claim it, "to err is human".
Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did Bahaullah as a messenger of G-d claim to be infallible is the question, please?
If he claimed to be infallible as a messenger (only), then please quote from him. Right, please?

Regards

Baha'u'llah says the Most Great Infalability is of G_d and Baha'u'llah is a Messenger.

This Infallability is essential for the Messengers, this is how the Quran, the words of Muhammad, is error free.

"Know that infallibility is of two kinds: essential infallibility and acquired infallibility. In like manner there is essential knowledge and acquired knowledge; and so it is with other names and attributes. Essential infallibility is peculiar to the supreme Manifestation, for it is His essential requirement, and an essential requirement cannot be separated from the thing itself. The rays are the essential necessity of the sun and are inseparable from it. Knowledge is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. Power is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. If it could be separated from Him, He would not be God. If the rays could be separated from the sun, it would not be the sun. Therefore, if one imagines separation of the Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation, He would not be the supreme Manifestation, and He would lack the essential perfections."

There is much written on this.

Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

I do not believe that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon that cannot be changed.

Homosexuals Admit "Sexual Orientation" Can and Does Change

Some people with unwanted homosexual attractions turn to their faith for help. Some conservative Christians believe that homosexuality is a result of a broken world and that faith can change sexual orientation. Some report that their sexual orientation has been changed through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Sexual orientation change efforts - Wikipedia

Science disagrees with you. In the animal world as well as in human society there are all kinds of genetical and biological variations that are perfectly natural. Dogmatic religions who try to surpress nature in an unnatural or cruel way show their narrow-mindedness which is often related to patriarchal domination and mysogeny.

Thank you kindly for showing me this part of your religion.

 

[Marcion]

The key here is we must understand that both science and religuon are organic and must grow together for the health of both to blossom.

I don't believe in the benefits of so-called religion as you will know by now.
Spirituality has no need for religious irrational dogma.

 

[Vinayaka]

Did Muhammad claim to be infallible, please?

I have no idea. Did he?

 

[Trailblazer]

Science disagrees with you.

John D’Emilio, homosexual professor of history and of women’s and gender studies at the University of Illinois at Chicago explained in an interview what many—perhaps most—homosexual academicians think about homoerotic attraction and biological determinism:

What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible…. queer theory asks us…to be skeptical of seeing both gender and sexuality as fixed categories. Who can argue with that?​

Homosexuals Admit "Sexual Orientation" Can and Does Change

In the animal world as well as in human society there are all kinds of genetical and biological variations that are perfectly natural.

That does not prove anything. Natural does not equate to moral. Humans are not animals in the wild. We are spiritual beings. Sex is just part of our animal nature. We can rise above our animal nature if we choose to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I know you don't believe the Adam and Eve story is literal, but God cursed them for disobeying him. He puts a tree in the middle of the garden and tells them not to eat the fruit from it. And he lets a talking serpent tempt them. What did God expect? They're like one day old. Do you think he's cut them a little slack? No. He curses them, the animals, the serpent, the whole Earth. And that's just one of the examples of God's love we have from the Bible. That's what I was trying to point out. If I'm a jerk to a woman and treat her like #*&%, why would I think she's going to love me? And then call what I'm giving her is love?

CG I like your style! I see God as a father who loves his children and watches out for them. There are times when anger is warranted such as if a child is attempting to cross a road with oncoming traffic at high speed.

Although God may express His displeasure at actions we’ve taken or decisions we’ve made that are bad for us, he never the less still allows us the freedom of choice.

God could have made us all subservient without any choice but although He deplores us choosing a path leading to more suffering He still respects our decision to turn away but we pay the consequences. If we put our hand into fire despite being warned that is our own fault not any punishment.

The Garden too is symbolic of us choosing materialism over a godly life and we pay the penalty not through a curse but we reap what we sow.

So our world has a lot of things like corruption and poverty because we’ve made it that way not a punishment from God.

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah says the Most Great Infalability is of G_d and Baha'u'llah is a Messenger.

This Infallability is essential for the Messengers, this is how the Quran, the words of Muhammad, is error free.

"Know that infallibility is of two kinds: essential infallibility and acquired infallibility. In like manner there is essential knowledge and acquired knowledge; and so it is with other names and attributes. Essential infallibility is peculiar to the supreme Manifestation, for it is His essential requirement, and an essential requirement cannot be separated from the thing itself. The rays are the essential necessity of the sun and are inseparable from it. Knowledge is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. Power is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. If it could be separated from Him, He would not be God. If the rays could be separated from the sun, it would not be the sun. Therefore, if one imagines separation of the Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation, He would not be the supreme Manifestation, and He would lack the essential perfections."

There is much written on this.

Regards Tony

"This Infallibility is essential for the Messengers, this is how the Quran, the words of Muhammad, is error free." Unquote

Kindly quote from Quran the verse in this connection, please.

Regards