In the name of God...

[PatriotBob]

I've read often, especially after the Pope's recent comments about atheism, that through out history the most horrible things have been done in the name of God. As a christain and thinking on this I've concluded that they are absolutely right.

But I have 2 points I'd like to bring to the table...

When asked which is the greatest commandment Jesus responded "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Mathew 22:37-40

So when people are murdered, killed, tortured, or what ever other horrid have occured in "the name of God" is that God's will you think? Or are these just the acts of evil men using the name a revered diety to shield them from repercusions? If I were to murder thousands and do it in "the name of Ponies" would you be angry with horses every where? Or would you be angry with the man commiting the act.

As far as I'm concerned that bible verse somes it up. If your not loving everyone else more than youself your not being a christian. Which leads me to say that murdering thousands for what ever reason isn't very loving. (I know... astonishing)

I think a picture I saw sums it up well... it said:
"Stop using Jesus as an excuse to be a narrow-minded bigoted *******"

I agree.

 

[rstrats]

PatriotBob,

re: "Mathew 22:37-40...As far as I'm concerned that bible verse somes it up. If your not loving everyone else more than youself your not being a christian."


I don't see where those verses say that you are to love anyone more than yourself.


re: "Stop using Jesus as an excuse to be a narrow-minded bigoted*******"


A "narrow-minded bigoted" what?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

I agree. Christians have gone aroudn the world and killed and converted forcefully in the millions. A lot of christians today are a result of rape.

Very bad.

 

[ChristineES]

Jesus said that people would know His disciples because of their love for each other. If a Christian doesn't love, then would he be a true Christian? Jesus biggest commandments were to love.

 

[w00t]

The Christians with the biggest mouths seem to be the ones with the smallest hearts!

 

[agent_smith]

Yes, you're all completely right... just because YOU aren't evil, that means all religion in general is not evil.

[/sarcasm]

 

[Aasimar]

For those asking about the picture he is referring too, it's on my myspace page, and it has BAD WORDS on it so I'll link to it.

http://a385.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/92/l_cdd85cc561789b20e0389807840c0440.jpg

 

[Captain Civic]

Yes, you're all completely right... just because YOU aren't evil, that means all religion in general is not evil.

[/sarcasm]

Yep, that's exactly what he was getting at.

 

[Mister Emu]

If your not loving everyone else more than youself your not being a christian.

Specifically the verse says to love your neighbors as yourself, not more than yourself...

Which leads me to say that murdering thousands for what ever reason isn't very loving.

The first commandment is greater, and therefore can trump the second...

 

[ChristineES]

I think a lot of folks try to justify what they do by saying it is in the name of God. Just because someone says s/he did something in the name of God does not mean that it is true.

 

[Quath]

I think a lot of folks try to justify what they do by saying it is in the name of God. Just because someone says s/he did something in the name of God does not mean that it is true.

So why doesn't God correct people preaching false things in his name? For example, Hitler used a lot of Christian statements to support the killing of Jews. (Blood debt and all that stuff.) If God disagreed with Hitler, then why didn't he send an angel to proclaim that Hitler was wrong?

It seems that God needs to have a PR angel who can clarify what God meant in the Bible. After all, if God is willing to but into human history and try to fix us up, he needs to stay consistent and keep his message straight.

You could make the point that God doesn't need to do this because the Bible is clear. However, from the sheer number of denominations, I would say it is not the case. Or you could say that God doesn't want to push himself too much, so he likes to be ambiguious. However, if that was the case, he should not have butted in human affairs in the first place.

 

[PatriotBob]

My point wasn't that because I am not evil, all religion is not evil. My point was that the worst acts commited by the "church" is in no way in keeping with "loving your neighboor" Everything from the crusades to the catholic church alter boy horrors, it is opposing what the Bible teaches and is the work of men not God. If you think God is telling you to kill people or touch lil boys, you need to lock yourself in a white room.

Or you could say that God doesn't want to push himself too much, so he likes to be ambiguious. However, if that was the case, he should not have butted in human affairs in the first place.

Sorry that was funny. In admitting God's existance, and God being the creator of all. Doesn't God not "butting in human affairs" kinda stop him from making man in the first place? And at what point does God just make us responsable for the keeping of this planet? 4000 years of training us to run things and 2000 of letting us run things. Kinda makes sense that at somepoint he would step back and give us what mankind has wanted. Full control.

And besides angelic God Police would eventually put a damper on free will, don't you think?

 

[Quath]

My point wasn't that because I am not evil, all religion is not evil. My point was that the worst acts commited by the "church" is in no way in keeping with "loving your neighboor" Everything from the crusades to the catholic church alter boy horrors, it is opposing what the Bible teaches and is the work of men not God.

In a sense, we are trying to see what effect religion has on people. You may be a good person. But without religion, would be a better one? I think that is a tougher question to anser. The best we can do is compare cultures which have religions to those without and try to compensate for other cultural differences.

If you think God is telling you to kill people or touch lil boys, you need to lock yourself in a white room.

Heh, the founder of the big three religions, Abraham, may disagree with this idea.

Sorry that was funny. In admitting God's existance, and God being the creator of all. Doesn't God not "butting in human affairs" kinda stop him from making man in the first place?

That is one way. Or God could be the Deist type and make man and let man figure things out on his own.

And at what point does God just make us responsable for the keeping of this planet? 4000 years of training us to run things and 2000 of letting us run things. Kinda makes sense that at somepoint he would step back and give us what mankind has wanted. Full control.

But the problem is that people are still trying to obey him without clear instructions. He should realize that everyone is disagreeing over what he wanted done and killing each other in the process to please him.

And besides angelic God Police would eventually put a damper on free will, don't you think?

It doesn't have to be a police, just information and clarification. He could even say "figure it out for yourself" or "that is not what I meant" or "I don't care what conseting adults do behind closed doors."

 

[sojourner]

In a sense, we are trying to see what effect religion has on people. You may be a good person. But without religion, would be a better one? I think that is a tougher question to anser. The best we can do is compare cultures which have religions to those without and try to compensate for other cultural differences.

Who is "we?"

Why is it necessary for religious people to answer the question, "without religion, would we be better people?" Isn't it incumbent upon religious people to ask, instead, "how can I, as a religious person, be a good and responsible person?"

Which cultures do not have religions?

 

[Quath]

Who is "we?"

Society in general.

Why is it necessary for religious people to answer the question, "without religion, would we be better people?" Isn't it incumbent upon religious people to ask, instead, "how can I, as a religious person, be a good and responsible person?"

What if the answer was "yes, people act better and are happier if there are no religions"? I think that would be a very interesting answer that may cause people to re-evaluate their lives.

But I think if you are going to be religious, I agree that it is good to to to be a better person.

Which cultures do not have religions?

Some cultures have less religions than others like Sweden (about 85% non-religious). Some have other ideologies that are not to be questioned.

While looking the least religious country, I came across this web page. Here is an excerpt:

The survey concluded that "high levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism. In some societies, particularly Europe, atheism is growing. However, throughout much of the world -- particularly nations with high birth rates -- atheism is barely discernable."

Now this doesn't mean that all religions are bad since there could be an undiscovered or misused religion out there that can do a better job. However, I think we need to really look to see if religion really helps a society or is it something that tends to hurt.

 

[sojourner]

Society in general.

I'm part of the society. I don't wish to be included in your little witch-hunt.

What if the answer was "yes, people act better and are happier if there are no religions"? I think that would be a very interesting answer that may cause people to re-evaluate their lives.

What does "act better" mean? According to whom? How does one measure happiness objectively?
What causes most Christians (can't speak for others) to re-evaluate their lives is to hold their actions up against the barometer of Jesus' example.

Now this doesn't mean that all religions are bad since there could be an undiscovered or misused religion out there that can do a better job. However, I think we need to really look to see if religion really helps a society or is it something that tends to hurt.

You'd really be hard-pressed to find a culture that does not include religion in any way. Even the USSR had a religion -- it was simply underground.

I don't think it's the religion that hurts the society, but the misuse of it by certain individuals.

 

[Smoke]

If I were to murder thousands and do it in "the name of Ponies" would you be angry with horses every where? Or would you be angry with the man commiting the act.

Well, I'm not angry with Jesus. I don't agree with everything he said, but I don't blame him for the actions of people who claim, for no good reason, to be his followers. And it would be stupid to be angry at a fictional god.

But I'm not willing to let Christianity off the hook. We're always hearing about "true" Christianity and "true" Islam, and how peaceful and compassionate they are. The problem is, "true" Christianity and "true" Islam seem to be almost completely imaginary. Sorry, but the real Christianity and the real Islam are what we see around us every day. Christianity is the beliefs and deeds of Christians, nothing more or less -- and I don't see how it has much to do with Jesus. The fantasies of Paul and the imaginings of Dispensationalists, self-appointed prophets, councils, theologians and popes have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. The problem isn't that Christians aren't living up to their religion, the problem is that they are. Christianity has a lot to say about Jesus, but it isn't that interested in how Jesus said one should live.

 

[ChristineES]

The reason God does not correct people is because He gave us free will.

 

[sojourner]

Well, I'm not angry with Jesus. I don't agree with everything he said, but I don't blame him for the actions of people who claim, for no good reason, to be his followers. And it would be stupid to be angry at a fictional god.

But I'm not willing to let Christianity off the hook. We're always hearing about "true" Christianity and "true" Islam, and how peaceful and compassionate they are. The problem is, "true" Christianity and "true" Islam seem to be almost completely imaginary. Sorry, but the real Christianity and the real Islam are what we see around us every day. Christianity is the beliefs and deeds of Christians, nothing more or less -- and I don't see how it has much to do with Jesus. The fantasies of Paul and the imaginings of Dispensationalists, self-appointed prophets, councils, theologians and popes have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. The problem isn't that Christians aren't living up to their religion, the problem is that they are. Christianity has a lot to say about Jesus, but it isn't that interested in how Jesus said one should live.

I have to basically agree with you here. We have to realize that we are God's arms and legs on earth. Everything we do (because we are Christians) is done "in God's Name." We should take that more seriously than manyof us do. I disagree in that I think that Paul, the Popes, the councils, theologians, etc. have everything to do with the teachings of Jesus, because they embody those teachings and present them to the world.

On the other hand, those who are not Christian need to realize that being Christian does not make us perfect. Many people seem to look to us to mitigate all the world's ills. That's not our purpose. Our purpose is to understand the world in light of reconciliation and to act congruently with that understanding.

 

[Quath]

The reason God does not correct people is because He gave us free will.

Giving information out is not forcing them to change in any way oher than to reduce their ignorance. People can still act as they desire if God clarified his position.

Plus the Bible doesn't really support the idea that God values "free will." For example, God forces Pharoah to go against God's will so God can punish him and Egyptian citizens. God later forces Pharoah to chase the Israelites so God can kill him.

God tells his followers to kill those among them that choose to follow other gods or to put other gods above him.

There are many other cases like this in the Bible (mostly Old Testament).

If God laid out his will in a clear manner, then I could "choose" to follow him or not.