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Imagine gods hiring outside consultants...

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Given the state of the world, let's say members of one pantheon decided to hire gods or other beings from other pantheons to suggest ways of fixing things.

1. What role can and/or should humans have in fixing things if gods created how the world works?

2. For seasonal or other types of deities who can die, if they can do that, then why do we need them anyway?

3. Would it even be appropriate for one pantheon to instruct another one? Is there some sort of juridiction issue?

I've been thinking a lot about this, but I'm kinda stuck as I'm mostly familiar with Abrahamic traditions. I welcome any and all ideas, serious or funny/subversive. :)
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
1. Don't we already do this? If you believe a deity or deities made the world, fair enough but you'd have to admit there are a few design flaws. For example, if you are a human you have to put up with knees and hips that go wrong, teeth that get infected/rotten, and a mind that is far from perfect in terms of remembering stuff and may well go senile as you get older. Lets face it a fair few people wandering around first world countries are only alive thanks to modern technology and modern medicine. Infant mortality and death of mothers in childbirth used to be much higher than it is today, again thanks to modern technology, modern medicine. The religionists, however, often seem to be a bit sniffy about science and technology, regardless of the good it has done us as a species, or they'd rather praise their deity for it.

2. Are you a deity if you can die? Not even come back as something else, I mean dead as a Dodo? I don't think we need the immortal and eternal ones, I really don't see the need for the second rate crappy ones who die on us!

3. Gods squabbling over who is the most powerful, and who should be listened to? Well it would make a change from hearing people squabbling over which deity is the most powerful, and which is the imposter!
I think Priapus, the Greek God of Vegetable Gardens should have the job of providing us with nutrition, I'm not a vegetarian, but I think it was a bit ghoulish of the gods to make us eat other animals in order to survive. I'm pretty sure a rabbit is happy being a rabbit, hopping about, eating grass and making little bunny rabbits. Seems somewhat cruel and lacking in dignity that he ends up in a pie!
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yama, the Hindu Lord of Death, is helped by a human to keep record of the good and bad deeds of people. The reward for good deeds and punishment for bad deed is given based on what balance sheet Chitragupta provides to Yama.

Chitragupta is supposed to be the progenitor of Kayasthas, a caste in India who are good (but many a times crafty and dishonest) administrators and negotiators. They love good life, non-vegetarian food and wine; and their girls are proficient in music and dance. They are generally nice-looking.

Chitragupta - Wikipedia (Wikipedia is not correct. Chitragupta is not a God, though very respected for his efficiency and honesty).
Kayastha - Wikipedia
 

Brickjectivity

System Override
Staff member
Premium Member
One early morning Kelly of the Phoenix wakes up on a twin mattress in a small room with a slowly turning, buzzing ceiling fan. Her room's walls are blue, and she turns on a yellow lamp as she is thirsty, needs to pee and is ready to wake up. In the hall there is a vending machine, so she quenches her thirst before taking a stroll on the beach. As she reaches the border of the dry sand and the wet she ponders nature idly. For no reason in particular she is suddenly aware that this day is a unique confluence of constellations, planets and weather, bringing together a strange mish-mash of gods, angels and demons. She's no numerologist, but it creates a feeling of elevated spirituality and tiny burst of adrenaline. In this glorious morning light, in this air so very far from home she feels tiny, too: like an explorer. "This day is sacred to many races" she thinks and also ponders the white moist sand squishing beneath her feet as well as one sharp hidden object she has just discovered. "Ouch!"

Its a two-finger ring hidden in the sand. Weird but cool! She rinses it with a toe in the surf and deftly swaps it upwards to look. Its gaudy and gold with an unusually cut garnet, pink because of the sunrise. A closer look reveals the stone is multi-colored with perfect balance, impossibly. "Maybe its plastic? No. Its stone." Around its setting it are twelve golden dancing figures which are so tall that they match the stone. The ring is unscratched and not worn down, despite its having been in the surf. "Who dropped this I wonder?" One of the twelve figures is Shiva, knives in hand. Some of the other characters she also recognizes but not from the same pantheon. "This ring makes no sense." she says aloud, sliding it on for a fitting. It fits. That's strange, because she can never find rings that fit, and this one's a two-fer. "God, I hope I can keep it. That would be awesome."

She continues her stroll, marveling at the perfection that this morning has been so far; and she knows when she gets back she'll have a perfect breakfast plus a story to tell and ring to show for it. This alone doubly justifies the expense of a vacation long in the making. Everything is going wonderfully, and it completely takes her mind off of past regrets, old wounds and other nonsense. These hands and these feet brought her and only they can take her back, she thinks; but she is wrong. These aren't her hands and feet.

Her hands have become like fire, and looking back at her path she sees that her footprints have turned into melted-sand prints. Its all so ridiculous. Her awareness unifies and broadens to the point she sees and feels in all directions, and the sunlight feels like a breakfast cereal and is pouring its power into her. She realizes now she has to exert control over her body heat or this beautiful beach will be destroyed, so she does as she begins to hover and the float up into the sky, laughing, suddenly aware of dimensions that humans may only ponder and never see.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
It's more an illustration of what false God's, God's lacking God ness would be like
It also assumes God has no purpose in the brokenness or plan of his own to ultimately
fix it "all creation groans as if in childbirth awaiting the redemption of the sons of God' Romans

1. What role can and/or should humans have in fixing things if gods created how the world works?

It should be a response to what God did
'the son of man has not come to be served but to serve and give His life a ransom for many'
He serves us first then in response we serve him

2. For seasonal or other types of deities who can die, if they can do that, then why do we need them anyway?
We don't

3. Would it even be appropriate for one pantheon to instruct another one? Is there some sort of juridiction issue?
A true God needs no instruction
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Her room's walls are blue
Holy cow! You know what color my room is? :D

Her hands have become like fire, and looking back at her path she sees that her footprints have turned into melted-sand prints. Its all so ridiculous. Her awareness unifies and broadens to the point she sees and feels in all directions, and the sunlight feels like a breakfast cereal and is pouring its power into her. She realizes now she has to exert control over her body heat or this beautiful beach will be destroyed, so she does as she begins to hover and the float up into the sky, laughing, suddenly aware of dimensions that humans may only ponder and never see.
May that happen to me one day.

A true God needs no instruction
Then why the Heavenly council?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Shiva does not wield a knife. His weapon is either the Trident (Trishul) or the bow (Pinaka) with arrows. :)

It is quite difficult to get an image of Shiva with both the trishul and the bow, but I found one for you. Tripurantaka (one who ended the terror of Tripurasura, the demon with three forts, one in heaven, second on Earth and the third in Hell).

330px-Tripurantak_-_10th_century.jpg
525px-Shiva_Tripurantaka.jpg

Legend: Here, the five headed Tripurantaka is seen pointing an arrow towards the Tripura (rightmost top corner) with the bow made of mount Meru, the serpent Vasuki is seen as its string. The four headed god Brahma is seen as the charioteer. The moon and the Sun are depicted as the wheels of the chariot.
(Image and description from Tripurantaka - Wikipedia)

Tripurantakam temple with beautiful erotic sculpture (10th Century, Chalukya dynasty).
Tripurantakam-Prakasam-Sri-Tripurantakeswara-Swamy-Temple-11.jpg


Holy cow! You know what color my room is? :D
Really! Room color should be light - white, cream, etc. Blue dulls the light. One need to spend more wattage. But, your choice. One wall or so, I think, is OK. :)
 
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The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Shiva does not wield a knife. His weapon is either the Trident (Trishul) or the bow (Pinaki) with arrows. :)

It is quite difficult to get an image of Shiva with both the trishul and the bow, but I found one for you. Tripurantaka (one who ended the terror of Tripurasura, the demon with three forts, one in heaven, second on Earth and the third in Hell).

330px-Tripurantak_-_10th_century.jpg
525px-Shiva_Tripurantaka.jpg

Legend: Here, the five headed Tripurantaka is seen pointing an arrow towards the Tripura (rightmost top corner) with the bow made of mount Meru, the serpent Vasuki is seen as its string. The four headed god Brahma is seen as the charioteer. The moon and the Sun are depicted as the wheels of the chariot.
(Image and description from Tripurantaka - Wikipedia)

Tripurantakam temple with beautiful erotic sculpture (10th Century, Chalukya dynasty).
Tripurantakam-Prakasam-Sri-Tripurantakeswara-Swamy-Temple-11.jpg

. :)

Hinduism is so full of colour and creativity, it makes the Abrahamic religions look dull in comparison. I'm interested in you being an atheist as well as a Hindu. Does that mean you see Hinduism more of a lifestyle thing, preserving traditions and learning the stories? Or does it go deeper than that?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I'm interested in you being an atheist as well as a Hindu. Does that mean you see Hinduism more of a lifestyle thing, preserving traditions and learning the stories? Or does it go deeper than that?
It goes much deeper than that. The reason I am an atheist is philosophy, 'Advaita' (non-dualism), which does not leave any space for God/Gods/Goddesses.

"Tat twam asi" Chhandogya Upanishad - 'That you are' (what constitutes the universe and all things in it).
That includes scientific cosmology as to what the universe began with? One thing, Energy.
 
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The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
It goes much deeper than that. The reason I am an atheist is philosophy, 'Advaita' (non-dualism), which does not leave any space for God/Gods/Goddesses.

"Tat twam asi" Chhandogya Upanishad - 'That you are' (what constitutes the universe and all things in it).
So, do you believe in a continued existence after death? Does your consciousness survive? Do you cease being everything that makes up "you", or would you consider "you" to be an illusion?
Sorry about the questions, hope you don't mind, I admit to being terribly ignorant about the Eastern religions, cultural biases you see. I really enjoy yoga though! ;)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
So, do you believe in a continued existence after death? Does your consciousness survive? Do you cease being everything that makes up "you", or would you consider "you" to be an illusion?
Sorry about the questions, hope you don't mind, I admit to being terribly ignorant about the Eastern religions, cultural biases you see. I really enjoy yoga though! ;)
I do not even believe in death. I am composed of atoms. Even after I am no more, each and every atom of my body will survive. Sure, what constitutes me will exist for all times as it has existed from the beginning of the universe. What constitutes me is eternal. My consciousness will not survive my death. Sure, In reality, I am not what I seem to be (therefore an illusion).

I do not mind your questions at all. It only gives me a chance to describe my views, so thanks to you. I have not done 'yogic exercises' (I prefer a gym), but I am a great fan of meditation and its connection with breathing.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
1. What role can and/or should humans have in fixing things if gods created how the world works?

I don't understand. Is something broken?

2. For seasonal or other types of deities who can die, if they can do that, then why do we need them anyway?

I don't really understand this either. The Seasons are the way things are, and I wouldn't say that they "die." It also doesn't seem to be a matter of "needing" the Seasons to me, they simply are whether humans want them to be or not. They come and go in the time that they must.

3. Would it even be appropriate for one pantheon to instruct another one? Is there some sort of juridiction issue?

I don't conceptualize pantheons in such a way that this question makes sense for me. All a "pantheon" constitutes is some human's way of categorizing and interpreting the gods by putting them into boxes. Inherently, they are not in any boxes at all. Pantheons are constructs, a way we choose to organize things. I don't see the particulars of historical or contemporary assemblages making the sort of differences you suppose here.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
I do not even believe in death. I am composed of atoms. Even after I am no more, each and every atom of my body will survive.
OK, agree with most of that though I am not sure what not believing in death means. Death happens, it is a fact, I don't fear it as I 'die' every day when I go to sleep. Death is just when I don't wake up.
Sure, what constitutes me will exist for all times as it has existed from the beginning of the universe. What constitutes me is eternal. My consciousness will not survive my death. Sure, In reality, I am not what I seem to be (therefore an illusion).
OK, I would agree with all of that but I cannot say if 'I' is illusory. I cannot explore that, I cannot demonstrate that 'I' am an illusion, though I might be. I am a materialist only because I can explore a materialist universe, anyone can, it is the only thing we can say is a shared reality. We both have to catch the No.9 bus if we want to get to a particular destination. I do find this subject tantalizingly interesting though.
I do not mind your questions at all. It only gives me a chance to describe my views, so thanks to you. I have not done 'yogic exercises' (I prefer a gym), but I am a great fan of meditation and its connection with breathing.
I do yoga and the gym, never thought I'd get so into yoga, it really is fantastic at keeping you young mentally and physically. :)

Apologies Kelly of the Phoenix for hijacking your thread, I'll take further questions to a more appropriate part of the forum!
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. though I am not sure what not believing in death means. Death happens, it is a fact, I don't fear it as I 'die' every day when I go to sleep. Death is just when I don't wake up.

OK, I would agree with all of that but I cannot say if 'I' is illusory. I cannot explore that, I cannot demonstrate that 'I' am an illusion, though I might be. I am a materialist only because I can explore a materialist universe, anyone can, it is the only thing we can say is a shared reality. We both have to catch the No.9 bus if we want to get to a particular destination. I do find this subject tantalizingly interesting though.

I do yoga and the gym, never thought I'd get so into yoga, it really is fantastic at keeping you young mentally and physically. :)
If I am (atoms and all) not what I seem to be (a person), then my death also is untruth. What will die after my so-called death, the consciousness of an illusion. Rest all will survive.

Thanks for finding it interesting and not saying 'yawn'. :) Advaita accepts reality at two levels. Absolute and Pragmatic. What survives is at the absolute level of reality. What does not is at the pragmatic level. The Sanskrit words for them are 'Paramarthika' and 'Vyavaharika'. 'Vyavahar' is daily business of life.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
If I am (atoms and all) not what I seem to be (a person), then my death also is untruth. What will die after my so-called death, the consciousness of an illusion. Rest all will survive.

Thanks for finding it interesting and not saying 'yawn'. :) Advaita accepts reality at two levels. Absolute and Pragmatic. What survives is at the absolute level of reality. What does not is at the pragmatic level. The Sanskrit words for them are 'Paramarthika' and 'Vyavaharika'. 'Vyavahar' is daily business of life.
That 'unpacks' it a bit more for me, thanks. Never boring, always fascinating. Beginning to think the Eastern religions are way ahead!
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
1. What role can and/or should humans have in fixing things if gods created how the world works?
Tell them to bugger off and let us sort out and figure out problems out like adults. Wanting gods to take care of our problems is like an adult wanting their parents to sort out and take care of all their problems once they have moved out on their own.
 

arthra

Baha'i
"Kelly of the Phoenix, wrote:Given the state of the world, let's say members of one pantheon decided to hire gods or other beings from other pantheons to suggest ways of fixing things.

1. What role can and/or should humans have in fixing things if gods created how the world works?

I believe human beings were created for a purpose or purposes.. that while we are not Gods ourselves we have a role to play in the creation and that is the purpose we have guidance and inspiration from God... Humans have been on earth since ancient times and over the course of our development we've progressed and I would suggest this inspiration for progress and development is from the Divine

2. For seasonal or other types of deities who can die, if they can do that, then why do we need them anyway?

The Messengers of God have sacrificed Themselves for us... They have lost wealth and fortune... been martyred and humiliated by humans .. and the records in the scriptures suggest this. What is being conveyed to us is a higher virtue and life based on principles and an invitation to grow nearer to God.

3. Would it even be appropriate for one pantheon to instruct another one? Is there some sort of juridiction issue?
I've been thinking a lot about this, but I'm kinda stuck as I'm mostly familiar with Abrahamic traditions. I welcome any and all ideas, serious or funny/subversive.

When we read the scriptures I believe there is a kind of progression involved from Messenger to Messenger and from Prophet to Prophet.. They build on each other...

16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

(King James Bible, Luke)

24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

(King James Bible, Luke)

5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

(King James Bible, John)
 
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