• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

I'm writing fantasy and...

What Beliefs/Culture?

  • Monotheistic

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Polytheistic

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Atheists

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Henotheist/Pantheist

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Believe in angels and djinn, spirits, and/or magic

    Votes: 3 75.0%
  • Believe in science and reason

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Mostly Muslim customs (with variations for alt history)

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Jewish customs

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sumerian/Mesopotamian customs

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Persian customs

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I have some weird historical wrinkles due to alternate reality with high magic based on religious faith. Let's see...
  1. There's a weird religion (Aiken or "loving fist") that is a mix of Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, etc. But we're not really concerned with them. I already fleshed these out.
  2. There's a second religion that sort of follows a history where Islam didn't really develop like it did on this Earth. So in its place, there's this religious group of people called Sakun ("stillness") and all I can make out is that they're sort of like is Islam suddenly had complete apathy towards converting anyone, mixed with Zoroastrian stuff and other religions of that area.
The second one is the one I want help with, figuring out what religion would look like in Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia if religion were altered by a different history. Especially since my knowledge of Zoroastrianism and Sumerian and Mesopotamian religions, etc. is pretty limited. As detailed as possible (and as weird as possible), since you're helping me world-build.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is Sakun monotheistic?

Edited to add: on second thought, I think that this is sort of part of what you are asking.

Let's see... if the main anthropological differences are that magic is faith-based, real and widely known to be so; there are no significant monotheistic proselitist groups to speak of; and the two most visible religious groups are called "loving fist" and "stillness"...

Then I would assume that the exact nature of Sakun is highly correlated to its own self-image as contrasted to Aiken. To some extent both faiths will shape themselves in order to emphasize that they are indeed different from each other, particularly in matters that might lend them support and sympathy.

Since I picture Aiken as sort of Unitarian Universalism on magical steroids, with a sort of vague doctrine that is routinely glossed over on behalf of actual practical action with uncomplicated, pragmatical justificiation and a pechant for attempting to appeal for various mindsets at the expense of doctrinary coherence, my tendency is to assume that a complementary faith would spontaneously develop that might offer a place to those who don't fit well into those expectations.

That would be in some senses a highly individualistic, or at least customizable, faith. Since it would have comparable access to faith-based magic, it would be somewhat bolder than in our world, and more given to spectacle. Its lack of interest in proselitism would perhaps be a direct result of its individualistic nature: desire to convert others would be seen as a sign of deep insecurity. It would both value and need a lot of personal initiative and scholarship, because there would not be too much effort from existing members to ease up new converts into the doctrine. And a major part of its activities would be, in fact, bridging up the various forms of the doctrine into mutual understanding and a modicum of common language.

The end result would be a wonder of intellectual ambition, as the vanity and sincere spiritual ambition of some of the finest minds of that culture would hone each other into accomplishments that can endure the toughest of questionings and sustain the proudest of accomplishments. It would be a challenge for insiders to describe and a nightmare for outsiders to understand, but that would be an accepted state of things, to the extent that people only rarely realize that it might have been different.

It would have wondrous art, including music and performance, since those would be among the most effective ways of connecting the sages with the general public. Whole communities would have cultural identities shaped in no small measure by their sympathy and allegiance to specific subvarieties of the faith, connected to specific sages and their lines of spiritual inquiry and expression. There would be therefore many competing doctrines, but for various reasons the desire to understand and effectively communicate with those competitors would be a very frequent, very respected value in most such communities.

Therefore, the contrast with Aiken would carry some measure of snobbish undertones, as the average Sakun adherent would instinctively think of Aiken as a doctrine that does not dare to differentiate itself enough to develop its own potential, that tries far too hard to be all things to all people, ending up as a jack of all trades with diminished accomplishments. There is no way to test that judgement, but it is confortable enough to be readily accepted by someone raised in a Sakun culture.
 
Last edited:

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sounds like it's possible you could have a bit of Christian deism - Wikipedia mixed in there too, except an Islamic variety on that theme. You also might be interested in Parsis - Wikipedia which were a group of Zoroastrians who immigrated from Persia to India and had strict no proselytizing views (you could even be expulsed from the community for doing it.)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There's a second religion that sort of follows a history where Islam didn't really develop like it did on this Earth. So in its place, there's this religious group of people called Sakun ("stillness") and all I can make out is that they're sort of like is Islam suddenly had complete apathy towards converting anyone, mixed with Zoroastrian stuff and other religions of that area.

The word "stillness" is a big hint to me. That would make the focus "being" rather than "doing" in the "Be still and know that I am God" bible reference.

You might pick up on Zoroastrian's Fire Temples Fire temple - Wikipedia which has this: The legends of the Great Fires are probably of antiquity (see also Denkard citation, below), for by the 3rd century CE, miracles were said to happen at the sites, and the fires were popularly associated with other legends such as those of the folktale heroes Fereydun, Jamshid and Rustam.

That would allow you to mix in miracles/powers as well as heroes.

Before Islam, Judaism was also significant in the area. You could draw in "Lost Ark" kinds of power as well.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The word "stillness" is a big hint to me. That would make the focus "being" rather than "doing" in the "Be still and know that I am God" bible reference.

You might pick up on Zoroastrian's Fire Temples Fire temple - Wikipedia which has this: The legends of the Great Fires are probably of antiquity (see also Denkard citation, below), for by the 3rd century CE, miracles were said to happen at the sites, and the fires were popularly associated with other legends such as those of the folktale heroes Fereydun, Jamshid and Rustam.

That would allow you to mix in miracles/powers as well as heroes.

Before Islam, Judaism was also significant in the area. You could draw in "Lost Ark" kinds of power as well.

The Great Fires are pretty interesting, especially if you compare and contrast the legends associated with them with what we know from a historical standpoint about when they were constructed, etc.

Hunting at that sort of contradiction can add a lot more realism to a setting.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It's a neat concept you have so far. I think it has a lot of potential.

You are probably already familiar with this exercise. But just in case.

Play the "what-if-game".

Starting with your words, "there's this religious group of people called Sakun ('stillness') that sort of follows a history where Islam didn't really develop like it did on this Earth"... and then say, "what if..." Then let your brain relax and fill in the rest.

try it...

you can have a lot of fun with this.

take a walk, and play "what if"

brain storm it...

no bad ideas...

a question to ponder to help you get started:

why stillness? what is the alternate history that would have caused this as the name for the religion.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I have some weird historical wrinkles due to alternate reality with high magic based on religious faith. Let's see...
  1. There's a weird religion (Aiken or "loving fist") that is a mix of Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, etc. But we're not really concerned with them. I already fleshed these out.
  2. There's a second religion that sort of follows a history where Islam didn't really develop like it did on this Earth. So in its place, there's this religious group of people called Sakun ("stillness") and all I can make out is that they're sort of like is Islam suddenly had complete apathy towards converting anyone, mixed with Zoroastrian stuff and other religions of that area.
The second one is the one I want help with, figuring out what religion would look like in Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia if religion were altered by a different history. Especially since my knowledge of Zoroastrianism and Sumerian and Mesopotamian religions, etc. is pretty limited. As detailed as possible (and as weird as possible), since you're helping me world-build.
I´ve studied Comparative Mythology and Religion for some 40 years now and I can advise you to go to the sources of Nature and focus on the oldest religious method of Shamanism and it´s DIRECT and not dogmatic experience of natural and divine information of everything.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
The two most visible religious groups are called "loving fist" and "stillness"...

Then I would assume that the exact nature of Sakun is highly correlated to its own self-image as contrasted to Aiken. To some extent both faiths will shape themselves in order to emphasize that they are indeed different from each other, particularly in matters that might lend them support and sympathy.

That would be in some senses a highly individualistic, or at least customizable, faith.

The end result would be a wonder of intellectual ambition, as the vanity and sincere spiritual ambition of some of the finest minds of that culture would hone each other into accomplishments that can endure the toughest of questionings and sustain the proudest of accomplishments.

It would have wondrous art, including music and performance, since those would be among the most effective ways of connecting the sages with the general public.

Therefore, the contrast with Aiken would carry some measure of snobbish undertones, as the average Sakun adherent would instinctively think of Aiken as a doctrine that does not dare to differentiate itself enough to develop its own potential, that tries far too hard to be all things to all people, ending up as a jack of all trades with diminished accomplishments. There is no way to test that judgement, but it is confortable enough to be readily accepted by someone raised in a Sakun culture.

I would put it at the other end actually, Aiken is kinda protectionist (and definitely on the snobby end). They are very individualistic, very open, and heavily into spiritual growth, but they also figure that other people aren't necessarily going to leave them alone. I didn't see the fine arts/scholastic angle, but that makes sense. So yeah, I can imagine AIken being snobs in a walled city, which is how I built them. They're almost like the religious version of Trump supporters without quite the racism and gun-toting. Though they do have crazy martial artist types and Druids and libraries of weird books. And a lot of other stuff in their town like zombies underground it (don't ask). Hmmm, I guess that makes them like the city in "The Death Cure" of Maze Runner. Being kind of ambivalent about politics, I tried to play the fence, showing both the flaws and the strengths of their thinking.

I have the Sakun people kinda out in a desert oasis literally in the middle of nowhere. Which is part of the problem, they're a culture that is remote enough that nobody knows about them. Part of what's blocking me a bit.

Sounds like it's possible you could have a bit of Christian deism - Wikipedia mixed in there too, except an Islamic variety on that theme. You also might be interested in Parsis - Wikipedia which were a group of Zoroastrians who immigrated from Persia to India and had strict no proselytizing views (you could even be expulsed from the community for doing it.)

I probably will consider it, yes. I was looking into some culture from Persia (not Iran, sorta pre-Muslim Persia). I guess the concept of having a kind of culture that was free from Islam and Christianity appealed to me, so no on the Christian deism.

You might pick up on Zoroastrian's Fire Temples Fire temple - Wikipedia which has this: The legends of the Great Fires are probably of antiquity (see also Denkard citation, below), for by the 3rd century CE, miracles were said to happen at the sites, and the fires were popularly associated with other legends such as those of the folktale heroes Fereydun, Jamshid and Rustam.

Before Islam, Judaism was also significant in the area.

I'll also check this out.

It also turns out that Saudi Arabia is where Sumeria is, so I'm gonna mashup Judaism, Persian Zoroastrianism, and Sumerian faith with some customs like wearing hijab (only, they only wear it inside temples, and their robes probably look different).

More like this?

tumblr_m8irwlmkYG1rbbmkwo1_500.jpg


I like this.

Okay, based on what I've come up with:
  1. Some similarities with Zoroastrian, they have Ahura Mazda as their deity. Unlike Zoroastrians, however, they are non-dualistic, seeing Ahriman as a false god. They are essentially henotheistic, seeing plenty of what they call "false gods" and naming many of them under the Sumerian and surrounding area god names. That is, they accept that such things have an effect on the lives of humans, but they aren't to worship them. Like the Jews, they don't do holy symbols or trinkets, although some wear a hamsa as protection versus evil.
  2. They have the Muslim custom of praying five times daily, but they don't face Mecca. They see any deity that is real as being all around them. They've also abandoned the Ka'aba, seeing holy objects and places as idols. They have halal, but it makes certain sacrificed animals are not in any pain, and they spent time researching how to do this. They can eat pork (Muhammad's reasons for not eating don't apply to them; although Zoroastrians avoid pork for different reasons, the reason for not eating foods in Zoroastrianism is because they are beloved pets or useful for milk or wool, so if pork is a hated animal, it is now allowed to be eaten). And they have hijab (but see above), but the emphasis is on worship for temple, and there is a distinction made between street clothes and hijab. Also, the Rostam article mentions a outfit called Babr-e Bayan, so we're possibly tying that myth into why the women wear this into temple (basically, rather than a modesty thing, women are seen as holy defenders of the faith, or something).
  3. They have reverence for the djinn and for angels, while ultimately not worshiping them, still treat them like one would treat ancient aliens or Japanese spirits, a mix of awe and reverence.
  4. They probably do have fire temples.
  5. I like the passage about Ahura Mazda talking to Yima (Jamshid article). I might include this too.
This helps a lot, guys. Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Top