If your deity asked you to kill your child, would you do it?

[popsthebuilder]

According to the story, he was prepared to kill his son because he thought God wanted him to kill his son. Also according to the story, this was considered praiseworthy in the eyes of God.

You said that God's will does not "guide us to inflict any negative thing onto any other life" and that if we perceive it to be so, then we're actually perceiving a "manipulation" of God's will.

Abraham perceived that God was guiding him to kill Isaac. In what way was this perception "manipulated"? Why would God praise Abraham for falling victim to a distortion of his true will?

... or was Abraham perceiving God correctly when he understood God to be commanding the sacrifice of Isaac?

Your missing a really obvious point. Abraham didn't question God, and as such was considered a friend of GOD. Also his utter Faith lead him to bring praiseworthy. He didn't manipulate gods will. He followed it without waver.

Stop trying to add negative things where there are none please.

Peace

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your missing a really obvious point. Abraham didn't question God, and as such was considered a friend of GOD.

I haven't ignored that at all; I just can't reconcile it with what you've said. I agree: the way the story reads, God was pleased that Abraham was willing to gut his son at God's command.

The message of the story is that regardless of whether God would actually follow through, he wants followers who:

- believe that God is capable of willing heinous acts, and
- are willing to carry out heinous acts that they think God wants.

Also his utter Faith lead him to bring praiseworthy. He didn't manipulate gods will. He followed it without waver.

So God DID command him to sacrifice his son (even if he stopped him before he did it)?

Stop trying to add negative things where there are none please.

I'm not adding anything. The negative aspects of the story were there all along.

Peace

... until you think your god commands otherwise?

 

[popsthebuilder]

9-10ths_Penguin,

No he wants faithful followers who not only know of the will of God as it pertains to them, but who will carry it out. It has nothing to do with heinous anything. Read the book. The whole thing is about living to a certain standard and treating others the same way.

Of course he commanded it. But the fact that it was only a test of Faith and not an atrocious act is not irrelevent at all.

There is no negative e aspect to the story. No negative thing took place at all.

And no, peace is the will of GOD. And before you mention the sword of God kno that it isn't a literal sword, but the word of GOD.

Peace, without condition for the sake of continued prosperous existence for all.

 

[viole]

That's good that you are not having children.

It is good that the question involved own kids and not kids in general.

Ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

9-10ths_Penguin,

No he wants faithful followers who not only know of the will of God as it pertains to them, but who will carry it out.

... by being willing to sacrifice one's own son, which you say is not God's will. How is this supposed to make sense.

It has nothing to do with heinous anything. Read the book. The whole thing is about living to a certain standard and treating others the same way.

The standard being "obey God unquestioningly, even when commanded to do evil."

Of course he commanded it. But the fact that it was only a test of Faith and not an atrocious act is not irrelevent at all.

It is, because the test was done before the angels stated Abraham's hand. He showed himself to be capable of committing evil in the name of God, even if the evil act wasn't completed.

There is no negative e aspect to the story. No negative thing took place at all.

I consider attempted human sacrifice to be a negative thing. Why don't you?

 

[popsthebuilder]

... by being willing to sacrifice one's own son, which you say is not God's will. How is this supposed to make sense.


The standard being "obey God unquestioningly, even when commanded to do evil."


It is, because the test was done before the angels stated Abraham's hand. He showed himself to be capable of committing evil in the name of God, even if the evil act wasn't completed.


I consider attempted human sacrifice to be a negative thing. Why don't you?

Because it wasn't attempted.

 

[Shad]

Because it wasn't attempted.

Yes it was. When someone stops another in the act then there was an attempt. Otherwise people can start claiming they never attempted murder because they were stopped.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I'm quite aware of that. I'm trying to show that the Torah, though the inspired word of GOD, was still misinterpreted in places either through oral tradition, or translation. That's why there was reason for a new covenant. The Jewish people lead many astray, as has the ancient traditional rcc.

But the Qur'on says the Torah and the Bible are correct.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

It is believed in the established scientific comunity that metal was indeed not originally part of the formation of earth but was added later in some cosmic collision with an asteroid or meteorite.

Proof?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

It is a light source. It reflects light, and doesn't make it, but it is still a source of light.

Source: a place, person, or thing from which something comes.

Please know what a word means before using it.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Your missing a really obvious point. Abraham didn't question God, and as such was considered a friend of GOD. Also his utter Faith lead him to bring praiseworthy. He didn't manipulate gods will. He followed it without waver.

Stop trying to add negative things where there are none please.

Peace

This idea you stated is negative.

 

[jeager106]

Elements were formed when the earth condensed, or so I gather from:
http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Inorganic_Chemistry/Case_Studies/Case_Study:_The_Natural_Abundance_of_Elements
I.E. metals and certain gases. I posted a link as I don't really know how the metals
got on this planet.
I got this via internet search.
I'm not well versed in such.

 

[RRex]

If your deity asked you to kill your child would you do it?

I don't know. What's in it for me?

 

[Draka]

I don't know. What's in it for me?

Free Starbucks for the rest of your life?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Tell me something Christians. How is this good?

My commentary in purple

[1] After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I."

[2] He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori'ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

I offer fruits and money to my ancestors, recently deceased, and to the spirits. I offer incense and water. These things come from my heart. Each mean different things. One thing that is different, they are not people nor animals.

First god says give his so as an offering of sacrifice

Second he says let this offering be burnt.

Now Im up for burning incense for the spirits. If they or my family asked me to burn my sister, Id think that a horrible request. I would question it and say no.

What it says above is not a request. It is not thinking of a human life (Isaac). Isaac has no rights. He is a son of god too.

See the problem? How is this justified or good?

Metaphor, literal, teaching, or not...its a horrible way to show biblical followers to "love thy neighbor".

[3] So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; and he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

He is very persistant to kill his son.

[4] On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off. [5] Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the ***; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

[6] And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together.

Tisk tisk.

[7] And Isaac said to his father Abraham, "My father!" And he said, "Here am I, my son." He said, "Behold, the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

[8] Abraham said, "God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son." So they went both of them together.

Come on Abram! Tell your son the truth.

[9] When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.

[10] Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

If a person in the states did this the police would have shot him for attempted murder. Its not just murder that is wrong. Its the attempt to do so too.

[11] But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I." [12] He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."

This is a contradiction. God created Isaac. Then he tells his father he is now a burnt sacrifice. If only Isaac knew.

Attempted murder is better than murder in gods eyes? Thats like when the priest told me thoughts arent sins but actions are. Yet, another contradiction jesus says we sin with our thoughts. If jesus is god, well.....

[13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.

[14] So Abraham called the name of that place The LORD will provide; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."

[15] And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, [16] and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,

[17] I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, [18] and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."

God gave Abraham a blessing for attempted murder.

Something is wrong here.

[19] So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beer-sheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba.

And Abraham lived happilly ever after.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I honestly just want to hear Jews, Christians, and Muslims say and stand by this statement:

"This is what we believe. This is what the bible says"

Take claim for what the bible says in full (Torah or Bible), accept it, and say to some of us atheist: "take it or leave it"

No need to justify and defend what god did to so many people. If you find love and just in scripture, then thats good. Unfortunately, not many people will understand it.

After awhile, it becomes a foregone conclusion.

 

[psychoslice]

Why the universe is not the proof? Toyota for instance is the proof that japan does exist.

The universe is no proof at all that there was a God, that made it all, a God that sits up there somewhere judging all that he has made, and getting quite upset over something's, .............lets face it, it does sound far fetched to say the least.

 

[psychoslice]

No, it really doesn't.

You have made you mind up and nothing is ever going to change that, no matter if its right or wrong, so be happy in your belief.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You have made you mind up and nothing is ever going to change that, no matter if its right or wrong, so be happy in your belief.

Excuse me?

I haven't made my mind up. It was made for me. I was an atheist for over twenty years. Your barking up the wrong tree.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Tell me something Christians. How is this good?

My commentary in purple

[1] After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I."

[2] He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori'ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

I offer fruits and money to my ancestors, recently deceased, and to the spirits. I offer incense and water. These things come from my heart. Each mean different things. One thing that is different, they are not people nor animals.

First god says give his so as an offering of sacrifice

Second he says let this offering be burnt.

Now Im up for burning incense for the spirits. If they or my family asked me to burn my sister, Id think that a horrible request. I would question it and say no.

What it says above is not a request. It is not thinking of a human life (Isaac). Isaac has no rights. He is a son of god too.

See the problem? How is this justified or good?

Metaphor, literal, teaching, or not...its a horrible way to show biblical followers to "love thy neighbor".

[3] So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; and he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

He is very persistant to kill his son.

[4] On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off. [5] Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the ***; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

[6] And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together.

Tisk tisk.

[7] And Isaac said to his father Abraham, "My father!" And he said, "Here am I, my son." He said, "Behold, the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

[8] Abraham said, "God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son." So they went both of them together.

Come on Abram! Tell your son the truth.

[9] When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.

[10] Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

If a person in the states did this the police would have shot him for attempted murder. Its not just murder that is wrong. Its the attempt to do so too.

[11] But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I." [12] He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."

This is a contradiction. God created Isaac. Then he tells his father he is now a burnt sacrifice. If only Isaac knew.

Attempted murder is better than murder in gods eyes? Thats like when the priest told me thoughts arent sins but actions are. Yet, another contradiction jesus says we sin with our thoughts. If jesus is god, well.....

[13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.

[14] So Abraham called the name of that place The LORD will provide; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."

[15] And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, [16] and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,

[17] I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, [18] and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."

God gave Abraham a blessing for attempted murder.

Something is wrong here.

[19] So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beer-sheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba.

And Abraham lived happilly ever after.

Attempted murder is when someone tries and fails. Abraham never fully tried and was stopped by an Angel. He was blessed because he didn't question the command of GOD, and it paid off, though he would have sacrificed us son out of Faith in GOD he didn't have to.