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If science proves that non-local consciousness is real how does that change your understanding

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Too many threads are rehashes of what people believe or don't believe in opposition to each other. My question is whether the CIA report constitutes enough evidence for people to consider changing their minds.

The article title is not very descriptive. To avoid TL;DR, focus on the CIA review and hopefully read it. What he said "CIA program" is not correct, but what the CIA was involved with was deciding whether or not there was something real and if it was of use to gather intelligence. The report itself is to me a classic example of what is needed when examining findings such as they did. The key finding is:
cia.png


The detail: He started with this perspective:

I always came back to the same conclusion. Humans could rationalize that life is meaningful to us, but in the grand scheme of things, there was no meaning. The people who told themselves there were just comforting themselves, I thought. I believed science was moving us beyond religion and superstitions about life after death.

But then: Scientific proof convinced me that psychic phenomena is real

I looked at documents from a CIA program where people were asked to send their thoughts — using just their minds — to others. The program concluded that there was a "statistically significant" success in doing this.
...
I've come to believe in non-local consciousness, or consciousness that originates outside our physical bodies and outside our brains. To me, this is the most scientifically sound explanation.

I often think about what skeptics would say. I used to be one of them. There's a tendency to try to push aside anomalies that don't fit into our understanding of the world, just the way I did with anecdotes about the unexplainable.
...
I believe there is something spiritual in the universe, beyond our typical senses. I don't choose to believe that because it's comforting, but because that's where the scientific evidence has pointed me.
...
But one thing I feel certain about is that there's more for science to discover.
 

Yokefellow

Active Member
Many years ago, I saw an experiment where they proved that all of our thoughts originate from outside of our bodies.

In other words, nothing we think is from 'us', but rather it is somehow 'beamed' into our brains first, then we 'perceive' that they are our original thoughts.

An analogy would be that we are nothing but a needle following a groove in a record. Everything has been prerecorded. We are like an Avatar in a video game simply following pre-written code. We literally have no free-will whatsoever... it just 'feels' like it.

I have often wondered if that is the case. It is very depressing in some ways, but then again maybe not?

I also tie all of the above to the theory of Pilot Waves...

"To solve these problems, the theory is inherently nonlocal."


It fits the 'needle following a groove' theory. Maybe a better way of stating it is that Particles follow the Wave like a boat being guided on an ocean.

The Wave is pre-recorded ahead of time. We, as particles, simply obey the commands of the Wave.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Too many threads are rehashes of what people believe or don't believe in opposition to each other. My question is whether the CIA report constitutes enough evidence for people to consider changing their minds.

The article title is not very descriptive. To avoid TL;DR, focus on the CIA review and hopefully read it. What he said "CIA program" is not correct, but what the CIA was involved with was deciding whether or not there was something real and if it was of use to gather intelligence. The report itself is to me a classic example of what is needed when examining findings such as they did. The key finding is:
View attachment 82541

The detail: He started with this perspective:

I always came back to the same conclusion. Humans could rationalize that life is meaningful to us, but in the grand scheme of things, there was no meaning. The people who told themselves there were just comforting themselves, I thought. I believed science was moving us beyond religion and superstitions about life after death.

But then: Scientific proof convinced me that psychic phenomena is real

I looked at documents from a CIA program where people were asked to send their thoughts — using just their minds — to others. The program concluded that there was a "statistically significant" success in doing this.
...
I've come to believe in non-local consciousness, or consciousness that originates outside our physical bodies and outside our brains. To me, this is the most scientifically sound explanation.

I often think about what skeptics would say. I used to be one of them. There's a tendency to try to push aside anomalies that don't fit into our understanding of the world, just the way I did with anecdotes about the unexplainable.
...
I believe there is something spiritual in the universe, beyond our typical senses. I don't choose to believe that because it's comforting, but because that's where the scientific evidence has pointed me.
...
But one thing I feel certain about is that there's more for science to discover.
So how long has the CIA been using these techniques?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
" Scientific proof"

Sigh.
You dismissed with a sigh the findings at various universities and other research sites. In what way are you different than others who ignore science when it challenges their beliefs? You ignored among other things who did the work:

Capture.PNG


and the summary of the findings:
Capture.PNG
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You dismissed with a sigh the findings at various universities and other research sites. In what way are you different than others who ignore science when it challenges their beliefs? You ignored among other things who did the work:

View attachment 82570

and the summary of the findings:
View attachment 82569
In what way are you different
from any scientific illiterate
who does not know that proof does not
exist in science?
 
Last edited:

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
In what way are you different
from any scientific illiterate
who does not know that proof does not
exist in science?
I'm citing an actual, carefully constructed review and you are ignoring it. But here's a science lesson for you in the middle of a paper recently published. But before I get to that, click on this Follow‐up on the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) remote viewing experiments☆ to see an example of what is in this follow-up paper

(now to the science lesson )

Follow‐up on the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) remote viewing experiments☆

4.2. Are the anomalous phenomena scientifically established?​

Starting in 1995 and after declassification, the American Congress, through the organizations that had developed the experiments on RV, commissioned Professors Hyman (1996) from the University of Oregon and Utts (1995, 1996, 2018) from the University of California to prepare a review report on the results obtained in the research programs that the CIA originally funded and conducted. Reviews should answer the question of whether “psi” phenomena are scientifically established. However, the expression “being scientifically established” (the original expression used in the reviews by Utts and Hyman) can have at least two meanings that would not be mutually exclusive but do have logically conflicting features.

On the one hand, the expression could be interpreted exclusively from a statistical or probabilistic judgment. In fact, the approach and statistical judgment used by SRI and SAIC consisted of the application of hypothesis testing based on statistical scrutiny. Specifically, these tests analyzed the statistical significance of the discrepancies between the observed measurements (obtained in the trials and experiments) and the estimated mathematical expectation (see the Mathematics Handbook published by Escolà‐Gascón, 2022c for a major revision). Consequently, this kind of statistical judgment would entail interpreting the occurrence of a given phenomenon as a set of significant deviations that may be above or below the estimated mathematical expectation. This probability inference would make it possible to ensure that the measurements of the deviations are not explained by the set of random (or chance) fluctuations.

However, this interpretation does not allow empirical assurance of when the supposed measured phenomenon is occurring (Escolà‐Gascón, 2022a, 2022b). Therefore, within the statistical‐probabilistic approach, concluding that a phenomenon is “scientifically established” should mean that only sufficient significant deviations were obtained (quantified by effect size tests), which were consistent and stable in relation to their measurements. If we focus on this approach, the conclusion that a phenomenon happens consistently and is statistically stable should not imply acknowledging or admitting that such a phenomenon is empirically real. However, the fact that the deviations are significant and are not explained by random fluctuations does represent statistical evidence supporting the hypothesis associated with RV.

On the other hand, in science, from a strictly factual approach, when an object of study is “scientifically established,” it means that sufficient evidence has been obtained to justify the real and functional existence of that object of study. Given the justification based on the burden of proof (or proofs), the object is formally accepted and established within the corpus of scientific knowledge. Unlike the probabilistic and statistical approach, empirical scrutiny would allow us to specify when a given phenomenon does or does not occur (if the scrutiny complies with experimental conditions and controls). These two interpretations based on different paradigms or approaches are crucial to an accurate understanding of the conclusions of the theoretical evaluations presented by the two professors cited above. The question that arises from these two interpretations is: can we consider that Jessica Utts' judgment was centered on the first interpretation and Ray Hyman's on the second? If so, both professors would be correct in their conclusions because they used different perspectives on scientific inference.

From a thorough review of declassified SRI and SAIC reports and publications, Utts (1995, 2018). concluded that anomalous phenomena (or psi‐functioning) were scientifically established. She also argued that the scientific challenge would not be in rereplicating the SRI and SAIC experiments, but in conducting research that would address the underlying mechanisms involved in producing the anomalous phenomena. An important note here is that Utts acknowledged the methodological limitations with the SRI experiments and explained how these were remedied in experiments subsequently conducted at SAIC. Utts’ statistical and methodological explanation suggests that her conclusion refers to the statistical (versus empirical) approach. In the same vein, Utts did not mention the word “empirical” and does not use expressions referring to possible evidence beyond the statistical judgment itself. Therefore, her conclusions based on effect sizes of deviations should not be incorrect if taken within the framework of statistical scrutiny.

In contrast, Hyman (1996) concluded that there was insufficient evidence to accept RV as a scientifically established phenomenon. He criticized that, for a phenomenon to occur, it is not necessary to resort to estimated mathematical hope (i.e., chance). His argument referenced the phenomenon relative to the psychophysical study of memory. This suggests that Hyman interpreted Utts' conclusions from an empirical and not a statistical approach, which could explain why there were so many discrepancies between the two authors' assessments. Furthermore, we must also bear in mind that not all phenomena are empirically observable and, consequently, only mathematical representation and statistical judgment would be scientifically available in decision‐making (Escolà‐Gascón, 2022c). Many phenomena have no direct observation in the physical sciences (e.g., the state of temperature and variations over time). In this sense, the fact that a phenomenon is not empirically observable and recordable does not make it a “pseudoscientific concept” (i.e., that it does not have sufficient epistemic foundations, see e.g., Fasce et al., 2021).

There is another essential nuance in that both professors agreed on several points and interpretations. Here, we will highlight the main agreement, as it is one of the reasons supporting a replication such as the present study. Hyman and Utts concurred that the significant effect sizes of the multiple SAIC experiments were statistically consistent or very similar to each other. Likewise, Hyman added that these nonrandomly attributable coincidences were not conclusive in themselves and that, only with further research replications could obtain more information on whether these sizes remain stable. This means that new replications should be carried out with the maximum conditions of experimental control and rigor. Ultimately, both evaluation reports provided helpful appraisals of the scientific value of the CIA and DIA's RV experiments. However, our narrative analysis suggests that both Utts and Hyman were correct from empirical versus statistical points of view and that their contributions, thus, have different impacts and implications.
...
Finally, our previous publications have echoed Hyman's (1986) skepticism about the ontological reality of psi (e.g., Dagnall et al., 2016; Drinkwater et al., 2021; Escolà‐Gascón, 2020a, 2020b; Houran et al., 2017, 2018; Irwin et al., 2012a, 2012b; Lange et al., 2019). But we also defend the principles of neutrality, intellectual humility, and falsification in scientific research. Thus, the present results compel the authors to voice an updated position statement, that is, our skeptically oriented team obtained ample evidence supporting the existence of robust statistical anomalies that currently lack an adequate scientific explanation and therefore are consistent with the hypothesis of psi.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'm citing an actual, carefully constructed review and you are ignoring it. But here's a science lesson for you in the middle of a paper recently published. But before I get to that, click on this Follow‐up on the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) remote viewing experiments☆ to see an example of what is in this follow-up paper

(now to the science lesson )

Follow‐up on the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) remote viewing experiments☆

4.2. Are the anomalous phenomena scientifically established?​

Starting in 1995 and after declassification, the American Congress, through the organizations that had developed the experiments on RV, commissioned Professors Hyman (1996) from the University of Oregon and Utts (1995, 1996, 2018) from the University of California to prepare a review report on the results obtained in the research programs that the CIA originally funded and conducted. Reviews should answer the question of whether “psi” phenomena are scientifically established. However, the expression “being scientifically established” (the original expression used in the reviews by Utts and Hyman) can have at least two meanings that would not be mutually exclusive but do have logically conflicting features.

On the one hand, the expression could be interpreted exclusively from a statistical or probabilistic judgment. In fact, the approach and statistical judgment used by SRI and SAIC consisted of the application of hypothesis testing based on statistical scrutiny. Specifically, these tests analyzed the statistical significance of the discrepancies between the observed measurements (obtained in the trials and experiments) and the estimated mathematical expectation (see the Mathematics Handbook published by Escolà‐Gascón, 2022c for a major revision). Consequently, this kind of statistical judgment would entail interpreting the occurrence of a given phenomenon as a set of significant deviations that may be above or below the estimated mathematical expectation. This probability inference would make it possible to ensure that the measurements of the deviations are not explained by the set of random (or chance) fluctuations.

However, this interpretation does not allow empirical assurance of when the supposed measured phenomenon is occurring (Escolà‐Gascón, 2022a, 2022b). Therefore, within the statistical‐probabilistic approach, concluding that a phenomenon is “scientifically established” should mean that only sufficient significant deviations were obtained (quantified by effect size tests), which were consistent and stable in relation to their measurements. If we focus on this approach, the conclusion that a phenomenon happens consistently and is statistically stable should not imply acknowledging or admitting that such a phenomenon is empirically real. However, the fact that the deviations are significant and are not explained by random fluctuations does represent statistical evidence supporting the hypothesis associated with RV.

On the other hand, in science, from a strictly factual approach, when an object of study is “scientifically established,” it means that sufficient evidence has been obtained to justify the real and functional existence of that object of study. Given the justification based on the burden of proof (or proofs), the object is formally accepted and established within the corpus of scientific knowledge. Unlike the probabilistic and statistical approach, empirical scrutiny would allow us to specify when a given phenomenon does or does not occur (if the scrutiny complies with experimental conditions and controls). These two interpretations based on different paradigms or approaches are crucial to an accurate understanding of the conclusions of the theoretical evaluations presented by the two professors cited above. The question that arises from these two interpretations is: can we consider that Jessica Utts' judgment was centered on the first interpretation and Ray Hyman's on the second? If so, both professors would be correct in their conclusions because they used different perspectives on scientific inference.

From a thorough review of declassified SRI and SAIC reports and publications, Utts (1995, 2018). concluded that anomalous phenomena (or psi‐functioning) were scientifically established. She also argued that the scientific challenge would not be in rereplicating the SRI and SAIC experiments, but in conducting research that would address the underlying mechanisms involved in producing the anomalous phenomena. An important note here is that Utts acknowledged the methodological limitations with the SRI experiments and explained how these were remedied in experiments subsequently conducted at SAIC. Utts’ statistical and methodological explanation suggests that her conclusion refers to the statistical (versus empirical) approach. In the same vein, Utts did not mention the word “empirical” and does not use expressions referring to possible evidence beyond the statistical judgment itself. Therefore, her conclusions based on effect sizes of deviations should not be incorrect if taken within the framework of statistical scrutiny.

In contrast, Hyman (1996) concluded that there was insufficient evidence to accept RV as a scientifically established phenomenon. He criticized that, for a phenomenon to occur, it is not necessary to resort to estimated mathematical hope (i.e., chance). His argument referenced the phenomenon relative to the psychophysical study of memory. This suggests that Hyman interpreted Utts' conclusions from an empirical and not a statistical approach, which could explain why there were so many discrepancies between the two authors' assessments. Furthermore, we must also bear in mind that not all phenomena are empirically observable and, consequently, only mathematical representation and statistical judgment would be scientifically available in decision‐making (Escolà‐Gascón, 2022c). Many phenomena have no direct observation in the physical sciences (e.g., the state of temperature and variations over time). In this sense, the fact that a phenomenon is not empirically observable and recordable does not make it a “pseudoscientific concept” (i.e., that it does not have sufficient epistemic foundations, see e.g., Fasce et al., 2021).

There is another essential nuance in that both professors agreed on several points and interpretations. Here, we will highlight the main agreement, as it is one of the reasons supporting a replication such as the present study. Hyman and Utts concurred that the significant effect sizes of the multiple SAIC experiments were statistically consistent or very similar to each other. Likewise, Hyman added that these nonrandomly attributable coincidences were not conclusive in themselves and that, only with further research replications could obtain more information on whether these sizes remain stable. This means that new replications should be carried out with the maximum conditions of experimental control and rigor. Ultimately, both evaluation reports provided helpful appraisals of the scientific value of the CIA and DIA's RV experiments. However, our narrative analysis suggests that both Utts and Hyman were correct from empirical versus statistical points of view and that their contributions, thus, have different impacts and implications.
...
Finally, our previous publications have echoed Hyman's (1986) skepticism about the ontological reality of psi (e.g., Dagnall et al., 2016; Drinkwater et al., 2021; Escolà‐Gascón, 2020a, 2020b; Houran et al., 2017, 2018; Irwin et al., 2012a, 2012b; Lange et al., 2019). But we also defend the principles of neutrality, intellectual humility, and falsification in scientific research. Thus, the present results compel the authors to voice an updated position statement, that is, our skeptically oriented team obtained ample evidence supporting the existence of robust statistical anomalies that currently lack an adequate scientific explanation and therefore are consistent with the hypothesis of psi.
You think you have the capacity
to give me a science lesson?

Intro to remedial general science
would have told you science does
not deal in proof.
Anyone who speaks of scientific proof
is a scientific illiterate.
I asked if you realize that.
It's all I asked.
Lets try again.

Are you unaware that there is no proof
in science ?

In answer you cut n paste a gish gallop.
All that and not a word on topic.
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Too many threads are rehashes of what people believe or don't believe in opposition to each other. My question is whether the CIA report constitutes enough evidence for people to consider changing their minds.

The article title is not very descriptive. To avoid TL;DR, focus on the CIA review and hopefully read it. What he said "CIA program" is not correct, but what the CIA was involved with was deciding whether or not there was something real and if it was of use to gather intelligence. The report itself is to me a classic example of what is needed when examining findings such as they did. The key finding is:
View attachment 82541

The detail: He started with this perspective:

I always came back to the same conclusion. Humans could rationalize that life is meaningful to us, but in the grand scheme of things, there was no meaning. The people who told themselves there were just comforting themselves, I thought. I believed science was moving us beyond religion and superstitions about life after death.

But then: Scientific proof convinced me that psychic phenomena is real

I looked at documents from a CIA program where people were asked to send their thoughts — using just their minds — to others. The program concluded that there was a "statistically significant" success in doing this.
...
I've come to believe in non-local consciousness, or consciousness that originates outside our physical bodies and outside our brains. To me, this is the most scientifically sound explanation.

I often think about what skeptics would say. I used to be one of them. There's a tendency to try to push aside anomalies that don't fit into our understanding of the world, just the way I did with anecdotes about the unexplainable.
...
I believe there is something spiritual in the universe, beyond our typical senses. I don't choose to believe that because it's comforting, but because that's where the scientific evidence has pointed me.
...
But one thing I feel certain about is that there's more for science to discover.
Your question is hypothetical as the results reported here do not establish anything about non-local consciousness. There is in fact no mention of such a term in the paper.

The authors themselves are careful to point out that all they have seen is a degree of correlation that appears statistically different from random, but no mechanism has been identified to account for the effect, if it is real. So they can't say this is evidence of anything specific that is out of the ordinary, just that there is an anomalous result that would merit further investigation.

Scepticism is intrinsic to the scientific method and is a valuable component of it.
 
Last edited:

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Too many threads are rehashes of what people believe or don't believe in opposition to each other. My question is whether the CIA report constitutes enough evidence for people to consider changing their minds.

The article title is not very descriptive. To avoid TL;DR, focus on the CIA review and hopefully read it. What he said "CIA program" is not correct, but what the CIA was involved with was deciding whether or not there was something real and if it was of use to gather intelligence. The report itself is to me a classic example of what is needed when examining findings such as they did. The key finding is:
View attachment 82541

The detail: He started with this perspective:

I always came back to the same conclusion. Humans could rationalize that life is meaningful to us, but in the grand scheme of things, there was no meaning. The people who told themselves there were just comforting themselves, I thought. I believed science was moving us beyond religion and superstitions about life after death.

But then: Scientific proof convinced me that psychic phenomena is real

I looked at documents from a CIA program where people were asked to send their thoughts — using just their minds — to others. The program concluded that there was a "statistically significant" success in doing this.
...
I've come to believe in non-local consciousness, or consciousness that originates outside our physical bodies and outside our brains. To me, this is the most scientifically sound explanation.

I often think about what skeptics would say. I used to be one of them. There's a tendency to try to push aside anomalies that don't fit into our understanding of the world, just the way I did with anecdotes about the unexplainable.
...
I believe there is something spiritual in the universe, beyond our typical senses. I don't choose to believe that because it's comforting, but because that's where the scientific evidence has pointed me.
...
But one thing I feel certain about is that there's more for science to discover.
I tend to see consciousness as being potential. Maybe something is there that hasn't been discovered.

Perhaps energy, or particles. Something else? I kind of feel the answers are somewhere in the quantum realm or even beyond that scale.

For now I think of consciousness in metaphorical terms , like electricity that animates machinery and gives it power and animation.

Unfortunately science so far has determined that the brain is not exactly a receiver.

But there are some intriguing things that are going on that relates ....

 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I'm seeing the Men Who Stare at Goats stuff.
Universities shut down those programs and ultimately neither the USA and USSR was able to gain such a decisive advantage despite the time amd money poured into researching such things.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Your question is hypothetical as the results reported here do not establish anything about non-local consciousness. There is in fact no mention of such a term in the paper.
Are we going to get into a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "remote" which you distinguish from "non local"?
The authors themselves are careful to point out that all they have seen is a degree of correlation that appears statistically different from random, but no mechanism has been identified to account for the effect, if it is real
The authors of the second paper were careful to discuss that there are two different ways of interpreting "scientifically established" The first: "On the one hand, the expression could be interpreted exclusively from a statistical or probabilistic judgment." The paper also referenced Hyman who applied an empirical point-of-view.

The paper also stated: Furthermore, we must also bear in mind that not all phenomena are empirically observable and, consequently, only mathematical representation and statistical judgment would be scientifically available in decision‐making (Escolà‐Gascón, 2022c). Many phenomena have no direct observation in the physical sciences (e.g., the state of temperature and variations over time). In this sense, the fact that a phenomenon is not empirically observable and recordable does not make it a “pseudoscientific concept” (i.e., that it does not have sufficient epistemic foundations, see e.g., Fasce et al., 2021).

And it finally concluded as as I highlighted our skeptically oriented team obtained ample evidence supporting the existence of robust statistical anomalies that currently lack an adequate scientific explanation and therefore are consistent with the hypothesis of psi.

I also remember strongly the uproar over smoking causes cancer with the tobacco companies making the same argument - there was no mechanism demonstrated that upheld the statistical findings.

Observation often precedes theory. Exceptions found to Newton's laws led to Einstein and so forth. Observation led to hypothesis which led to experiment and finally to theory if/when the test results matched the hypothesis. The paper conclusion "hypothesis of psi" should be noted.

Scepticism is intrinsic to the scientific method and is a valuable component of it.

Of course that's true. The CIA review of the various research studies was built on skepticism. The various tests both methodological and statistical they applied was to me outstanding. The authors of the second paper were careful to include skeptical viewpoints in evaluating their thoughts.

And you can note my use of the word "if" in the thread title. While it's interesting to me to have a reasoned discussion as we're having, I was really asking how a proof would affect people's understanding ( "of life, the universe and everything")
 
Last edited:

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I tend to see consciousness as being potential. Maybe something is there that hasn't been discovered.

Perhaps energy, or particles. Something else? I kind of feel the answers are somewhere in the quantum realm or even beyond that scale.

For now I think of consciousness in metaphorical terms , like electricity that animates machinery and gives it power and animation.

Unfortunately science so far has determined that the brain is not exactly a receiver.

But there are some intriguing things that are going on that relates ....


There is a potential theoretical framework that might (or might not apply) - quantum mechanics. Specifically quantum nonlocality There's some interesting thoughts about how the brain works such as Brain experiment suggests that consciousness relies on quantum entanglement
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Your question is hypothetical as the results reported here do not establish anything about non-local consciousness. There is in fact no mention of such a term in the paper.

The authors themselves are careful to point out that all they have seen is a degree of correlation that appears statistically different from random, but no mechanism has been identified to account for the effect, if it is real. So they can't say this is evidence of anything specific that is out of the ordinary, just that there is an anomalous result that would merit further investigation.

Scepticism is intrinsic to the scientific method and is a valuable component of it.
I agree that the results are interesting enough to warrant further studies.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Are we going to get into a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "remote" which you distinguish from "non local"?

The authors of the second paper were careful to discuss that there are two different ways of interpreting "scientifically established" The first: "On the one hand, the expression could be interpreted exclusively from a statistical or probabilistic judgment." The paper also referenced Hyman who applied an empirical point-of-view.

The paper also stated: Furthermore, we must also bear in mind that not all phenomena are empirically observable and, consequently, only mathematical representation and statistical judgment would be scientifically available in decision‐making (Escolà‐Gascón, 2022c). Many phenomena have no direct observation in the physical sciences (e.g., the state of temperature and variations over time). In this sense, the fact that a phenomenon is not empirically observable and recordable does not make it a “pseudoscientific concept” (i.e., that it does not have sufficient epistemic foundations, see e.g., Fasce et al., 2021).

And it finally concluded as as I highlighted our skeptically oriented team obtained ample evidence supporting the existence of robust statistical anomalies that currently lack an adequate scientific explanation and therefore are consistent with the hypothesis of psi.

I also remember strongly the uproar over smoking causes cancer with the tobacco companies making the same argument - there was no mechanism demonstrated that upheld the statistical findings.

Observation often precedes theory. Exceptions found to Newton's laws led to Einstein and so forth. Observation led to hypothesis which led to experiment and finally to theory if/when the test results matched the hypothesis. The paper conclusion "hypothesis of psi" should be noted.



Of course that's true. The CIA review of the various research studies was built on skepticism. The various tests both methodological and statistical they applied was to me outstanding. The authors of the second paper were careful to include skeptical viewpoints in evaluating their thoughts.

And you can note my use of the word "if" in the thread title. While it's interesting to me to have a reasoned discussion as we're having, I was really asking how a proof would affect people's understanding ( "of life, the universe and everything")
"proof" again.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Too many threads are rehashes of what people believe or don't believe in opposition to each other. My question is whether the CIA report constitutes enough evidence for people to consider changing their minds.

The article title is not very descriptive. To avoid TL;DR, focus on the CIA review and hopefully read it. What he said "CIA program" is not correct, but what the CIA was involved with was deciding whether or not there was something real and if it was of use to gather intelligence. The report itself is to me a classic example of what is needed when examining findings such as they did. The key finding is:
View attachment 82541

The detail: He started with this perspective:

I always came back to the same conclusion. Humans could rationalize that life is meaningful to us, but in the grand scheme of things, there was no meaning. The people who told themselves there were just comforting themselves, I thought. I believed science was moving us beyond religion and superstitions about life after death.

But then: Scientific proof convinced me that psychic phenomena is real

I looked at documents from a CIA program where people were asked to send their thoughts — using just their minds — to others. The program concluded that there was a "statistically significant" success in doing this.
...
I've come to believe in non-local consciousness, or consciousness that originates outside our physical bodies and outside our brains. To me, this is the most scientifically sound explanation.

I often think about what skeptics would say. I used to be one of them. There's a tendency to try to push aside anomalies that don't fit into our understanding of the world, just the way I did with anecdotes about the unexplainable.
...
I believe there is something spiritual in the universe, beyond our typical senses. I don't choose to believe that because it's comforting, but because that's where the scientific evidence has pointed me.
...
But one thing I feel certain about is that there's more for science to discover.
Skepticism is a stance that avoids jumping to positive or negative conclusion without exhaustive investigation. This one requires that.
The current problem is that such experiments are very low priority in science and hence good control is rarely established. As you may know 30-40% of published biological research fail the replication test, and the situation gets worse when sociological experiments are done. Therefore inferring new physics from sociological experiments meet with deep skepticism as of now. Hopefully it will get better in future.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I agree that the results are interesting enough to warrant further studies.
People will never quit trying to establish
paranormal as real.
I think it's frivolous, but as long as my tax money
isn't used, and it amuses people I suppose there's
no harm.

Though bogus claims such as "cold fusion"
or anti intelligent garbage like " science" proves
telepathy, don't seem terribly progressive.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Skepticism is a stance that avoids jumping to positive or negative conclusion without exhaustive investigation. This one requires that.
The current problem is that such experiments are very low priority in science and hence good control is rarely established. As you may know 30-40% of published biological research fail the replication test, and the situation gets worse when sociological experiments are done. Therefore inferring new physics from sociological experiments meet with deep skepticism as of now. Hopefully it will get better in future.
Sociology / psychology are already borderline fraud
in their own fields.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I agree that the results are interesting enough to warrant further studies.
Then why did they pull the plug and universities close entire departments? Surely it would still be going on if they solidly found more than shoddy research set ups and atrocious ethical and moral violations (like administering LSD to unsuspecting victims and abduction and torturing people).
 
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