If prophecy or seeing the future were true... think about it...

[nPeace]

If I were in your position, I'd try to take the easy way out myself, rather than face up to the fact that I cannot support an unscriptural stance. So that okay, because it was clear from the beginning that you were not explaining what the Bible says.
As you just admitted, you were only explaining yourself.

Fine, so you made a claim. You can't back up that claim, and you are happy with just making claims - statements that have no substance at all. That's absolutely fine. After all, this is a debate forum, not a courtroom.

 

[onlytruth]

one hundred people in a locked room ( the earth) , they have no choice of being there ( being conceived and born) . they will be in there exactly a year but only the ones who have outgoing concern for there neighbor will be allowed out ( living life) . there is enough food,water, etc. to meet exactly all there needs. free will for all. greed ,theft , murder, illegitimate domination, coveting, etc, or love, patience, self sacrifice, etc. How many would get out ( entering the coming kingdom of god). the beginning and end are controlled ,in between is choice of freewill.

 

[nPeace]

one hundred people in a locked room ( the earth) , they have no choice of being there ( being conceived and born) . they will be in there exactly a year but only the ones who have outgoing concern for there neighbor will be allowed out ( living life) . there is enough food,water, etc. to meet exactly all there needs. free will for all. greed ,theft , murder, illegitimate domination, coveting, etc, or love, patience, self sacrifice, etc. How many would get out ( entering the coming kingdom of god). the beginning and end are controlled ,in between is choice of freewill.

How many will get out?
The king of the coming kingdom says, very few.

only the ones who have outgoing concern for there neighbor will be allowed out

They exercise their free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19 . . .Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,
Joshua 24:14, 15; Matthew 22:34-40

 

[Axe Elf]

If I were in your position, I'd try to take the easy way out myself, rather than face up to the fact that I cannot support an unscriptural stance. So that okay, because it was clear from the beginning that you were not explaining what the Bible says.
As you just admitted, you were only explaining yourself.

Fine, so you made a claim. You can't back up that claim, and you are happy with just making claims - statements that have no substance at all. That's absolutely fine. After all, this is a debate forum, not a courtroom.

If I were in your position, I'd try to stop making myself look duller than I already have, and face up to the fact that I cannot understand a scriptural interpretation. So that [sic] okay, because it was clear from the beginning that you were not created to understand this message from the Bible.
As I just demonstrated, I can only explain it to people created to understand it.

Fine, so you exhibited your shortcoming. You can't overcome that shortcoming, and you are happy with your limited understanding--one that restricts you from deeper understanding. That's absolutely fine. After all, this is a debate forum, not a classroom.

 

[joelr]

There is a randomness embedded in quantum mechanics which ultimately means no matter how much knowledge you have about the current state (that knowledge is also limited by the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle) you can never predict future events.
As time moves forward those quantum properties end up influencing macroscopic events. Things can never be predicted.
There are cyclic things that you can use inductive logic to predict based on the past like the sun will rise.
But psychic predictions are not real.

 

[Dell]

Oh? How do you know this?

Most every scholar dates the writings of the Gospels between 30 to 70 years after the crucifixion. And its obvious they were not written as a journal.

 

[Dell]

In one sense, but not exactly. If one knows future events, - in this case God, since he is the only one capable of doing so - it would indicate that in the mind of that one - the predictor... God, future events has indeed occurred.
That's why even before Jesus' death, God could forgive sins, declare persons righteous, and bring them into a relationship with him, as his children, and they can be sure of the future. Their hope is therefore an anchor, in these turbulent seas.
God however has no reason to look into the future - in its entirety. He knows what he is doing, and what he wills, and therefore there is nothing that can stop his will taking place, even if he has to adjust to meet opposing actions, which do take place.


No. We are not repeating it, because every event may not have been predicted, or foreseen.
For example, if one foresaw an event that involved a car crash, they may see the car, and the events surrounding the crash, but they may not foresee exactly who drove the car, or what spectators would say or do, or other events in detail.
Also, what is foreseen is in the mind of the one seeing it. It's not an actual event.


No. As stated above, all the details are not foreseen.
Another example.
The creator foretold the sacrifice of his son, which was the important detail he was concerned about. he foresaw the events surrounding this, but he chose not to see other details - like who exactly would be involved, or what his adversary the Devil would have cooking up his sleeve, or what actions he would take.
This is because as almighty, God does not have to fear what enemies or his opposer does, because all he has to do, is use his power to make certain that his will takes place. Easy as Squeezy.


God sees, both past and future, but there is no need to reveal the past to his messengers. he already had it recorded.


This is not reality.
Reality is that the writers of the Bible wrote down honestly what they knew, and Matthew, and Luke recorded, what their Lord said to them, about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, in the first century. The evidence suggests that this occurred after these writings were completed.

To prophecy with 100% accuracy, future events would have to be played out and observed. Human events are way to complex and impossible to calculate or predict.
If the future can be observed than we should be able to observe the past the same way. I.e. observe the crucifixion (not by historical accounts but see it).
And if it were possible to go forward or backward in time then everything is static, no free will, we are just following a predestined path, there would most likely be an almighty God like the bible illustrates.

But prophecy is impossible. Written prophecy can help scholars date books in the bible or discern passages were added at a later time. I.e. the book of Daniel and Isaiah has had several editors, like a wiki, and the same goes for most all books in the Bible. No telling how the stories of Jesus change the some 20 or 30 years after his crucifixion before those stories were actually written down. Manuscripts are also known to have been appended to, i.e. the story of the woman caught in adultry. The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem is a good indicator of how long the Gospels were in flux after Jesus death.

 

[Milton Platt]

1. The past, present and future has eternally happened, is eternally happening, and will eternally happen just as it was created to happen.
Maybe. Any evidence for this?
2. This is what the Bible tells us, that the future is as fixed as the past and that free will is an illusion. But no, it is not a simulation, it IS reality--a reality where nothing that does not happen can possibly happen.

3. Every time you watch a movie, you are seeing the past. Seeing the past doesn't make news, so you don't hear about people doing it.

Actually, you are only seeing a representation of past events, not seeing the vents as they happen.

 

[Axe Elf]

Actually, you are only seeing a representation of past events, not seeing the vents as they happen.

That's all you see when you see events "live" anyway, as some of the light reflected off of the objects involved in the event is absorbed by your retinas, stimulating a representation of the event in your nervous system nanoseconds later. We never experience the "real" world directly; we only experience a representation of the world created by the stimuli our perceptual systems can process.

 

[nPeace]

There is a randomness embedded in quantum mechanics which ultimately means no matter how much knowledge you have about the current state (that knowledge is also limited by the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle) you can never predict future events.
As time moves forward those quantum properties end up influencing macroscopic events. Things can never be predicted.
There are cyclic things that you can use inductive logic to predict based on the past like the sun will rise.
But psychic predictions are not real.

Spoiler: Mystery of Mysteries

Quantum mechanics was initially developed to provide a better explanation and description of the atom, especially the differences in the spectra of light emitted by different isotopes of the same chemical element, as well as subatomic particles. In short, the quantum-mechanical atomic model has succeeded spectacularly in the realm where classical mechanics and electromagnetism falter.

Philosophical implications
Main article: Interpretations of quantum mechanics
Since its inception, the many counter-intuitive aspects and results of quantum mechanics have provoked strong philosophical debates and many interpretations. Even fundamental issues, such as Max Born's basic rules concerning probability amplitudes and probability distributions, took decades to be appreciated by society and many leading scientists. Richard Feynman once said, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." According to Steven Weinberg, "There is now in my opinion no entirely satisfactory interpretation of quantum mechanics."
Albert Einstein, himself one of the founders of quantum theory, did not accept some of the more philosophical or metaphysical interpretations of quantum mechanics, such as rejection of determinism and of causality.

An interpretation of quantum mechanics is an attempt to explain how concepts in quantum mechanics correspond to reality. Although quantum mechanics has held up to rigorous and thorough experimental testing, many of these experiments are open to different interpretations. There exist a number of contending schools of thought, different over whether quantum mechanics can be understood to be deterministic, which elements of quantum mechanics can be considered "real", and other matters.

This question is of special interest to philosophers of physics, as physicists continue to show a strong interest in the subject. They usually consider an interpretation of quantum mechanics as an interpretation of the mathematical formalism of quantum mechanics, specifying the physical meaning of the mathematical entities of the theory.

Quantum gravity - Wikipedia
While a quantum theory of gravity may be needed to reconcile general relativity with the principles of quantum mechanics, difficulties arise when applying the usual prescriptions of quantum field theory to the force of gravity via graviton bosons. The problem is that the theory one gets in this way is not renormalizable and therefore cannot be used to make meaningful physical predictions. As a result, theorists have taken up more radical approaches to the problem of quantum gravity, the most popular approaches being string theory and loop quantum gravity. Although some quantum gravity theories, such as string theory, try to unify gravity with the other fundamental forces, others, such as loop quantum gravity, make no such attempt; instead, they make an effort to quantize the gravitational field while it is kept separate from the other forces.

Strictly speaking, the aim of quantum gravity is only to describe the quantum behavior of the gravitational field and should not be confused with the objective of unifying all fundamental interactions into a single mathematical framework. A theory of quantum gravity that is also a grand unification of all known interactions is sometimes referred to as The Theory of Everything (TOE). While any substantial improvement into the present understanding of gravity would aid further work towards unification, the study of quantum gravity is a field in its own right with various branches having different approaches to unification.

One of the difficulties of formulating a quantum gravity theory is that quantum gravitational effects only appear at length scales near the Planck scale, around 10−35 meter, a scale far smaller, and equivalently far larger in energy, than those currently accessible by high energy particle accelerators. Therefore physicists lack experimental data which could distinguish between the competing theories which have been proposed.

Despite whatever knowledge they have about the theory of quantum mechanics, and other theories, that knowledge is not only limited, and probably wrong, it is also likely to be replaced, as was the case with Classical physics, etc. So with that element you can never say what can and cannot happen.
Otherwise, such statements would not exist... 18 Biggest Unsolved Mysteries in Physics

Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.

Joshua 24:15
I like that we get to choose. I believe the prophets - including Jesus the Messiah.

To prophecy with 100% accuracy, future events would have to be played out and observed. Human events are way to complex and impossible to calculate or predict.
If the future can be observed than we should be able to observe the past the same way. I.e. observe the crucifixion (not by historical accounts but see it).
And if it were possible to go forward or backward in time then everything is static, no free will, we are just following a predestined path, there would most likely be an almighty God like the bible illustrates.

But prophecy is impossible. Written prophecy can help scholars date books in the bible or discern passages were added at a later time. I.e. the book of Daniel and Isaiah has had several editors, like a wiki, and the same goes for most all books in the Bible. No telling how the stories of Jesus change the some 20 or 30 years after his crucifixion before those stories were actually written down. Manuscripts are also known to have been appended to, i.e. the story of the woman caught in adultry. The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem is a good indicator of how long the Gospels were in flux after Jesus death.

I think you are looking at things entirely from a human perspective - a naturalist perspective perhaps? I'm not.

 

[joelr]

Despite whatever knowledge they have about the theory of quantum mechanics, and other theories, that knowledge is not only limited, and probably wrong, it is also likely to be replaced, as was the case with Classical physics, etc. So with that element you can never say what can and cannot happen.
Otherwise, such statements would not exist... 18 Biggest Unsolved Mysteries in Physics

First Classical physics isn't wrong at all. We still use Newtonian equations for gravitation to navigate spaceships and probes. They work quite well.
Quantum mechanics just extended the field into the quantum realm which as it turns out requires a different set of laws and theories.
Newton came up with calculus to describe the planetary motions, has someone told you we no longer use calculus?
Likewise quantum mechanics may be improved to extend into areas where we don't understand physics like in black holes or during the big bang. But QM isn't wrong. Where do you think your computer came from? Or Xrays/MRI, iphones, GPS technology, lasers and many other advancements.
There are always unsolved mysteries at the front of science. But randomness and the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principe are correct at the scales we measure them.

Newtons gravity is still working and so is quantum mechanics. Something new isn't going to change that fact it will just dig deeper into unknown physics.

We cannot predict the future, it's not possible due to quantum randomness.

 

[Milton Platt]

That's all you see when you see events "live" anyway, as some of the light reflected off of the objects involved in the event is absorbed by your retinas, stimulating a representation of the event in your nervous system nanoseconds later. We never experience the "real" world directly; we only experience a representation of the world created by the stimuli our perceptual systems can process.

Yes, but you are seeing it in the moment, and that is what I meant. Barring the speed of light, that is as close as one can get. Light bouncing off of objects and entering the eye is not the same as light being recorded on a film or a light sensor and saved digitally and then observed later. It is disingenuous to make that claim.

 

[nPeace]

First Classical physics isn't wrong at all. We still use Newtonian equations for gravitation to navigate spaceships and probes. They work quite well.
Quantum mechanics just extended the field into the quantum realm which as it turns out requires a different set of laws and theories.
Newton came up with calculus to describe the planetary motions, has someone told you we no longer use calculus?
Likewise quantum mechanics may be improved to extend into areas where we don't understand physics like in black holes or during the big bang. But QM isn't wrong. Where do you think your computer came from? Or Xrays/MRI, iphones, GPS technology, lasers and many other advancements.
There are always unsolved mysteries at the front of science. But randomness and the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principe are correct at the scales we measure them.

Newtons gravity is still working and so is quantum mechanics. Something new isn't going to change that fact it will just dig deeper into unknown physics.

We cannot predict the future, it's not possible due to quantum randomness.

Well, that's good that they are making progress forward.
Yet, I don't believe it is an honest assessment, to conclude that everything can be known with such limitations, and probabilities, and possibilities which are not currently known, do you?

I agree totally that no human can predict the future. I would never submit to such a theory, and none of the prophets did.

Remember the former things of long ago, That I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is no one like me. From the beginning I foretell the outcome, And from long ago the things that have not yet been done. I say, ‘My decision will stand, And I will do whatever I please.’

Isaiah 46:9, 10; 42:9; 45:21

For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.

2 Peter 1:20, 21

 

[Milton Platt]

Well, that's good that they are making progress forward.
Yet, I don't believe it is an honest assessment, to conclude that everything can be known with such limitations, and probabilities, and possibilities which are not currently known, do you?

I agree totally that no human can predict the future. I would never submit to such a theory, and none of the prophets did.
Isaiah 46:9, 10; 42:9; 45:21

2 Peter 1:20, 21

Pardon my intrusion, but I was following the conversation and one of your comments struck me as odd. You You said prophets would not claim to be able to predict the future. That is what prophecy is, actually. Predicting future events. If a prophet does not make any claims about a future event, how can he be a prophet?

 

[nPeace]

Pardon my intrusion, but I was following the conversation and one of your comments struck me as odd. You You said prophets would not claim to be able to predict the future. That is what prophecy is, actually. Predicting future events. If a prophet does not make any claims about a future event, how can he be a prophet?

2 Peter 1:20, 21

 

[Milton Platt]

2 Peter 1:20, 21

Okay, so a prediction made by a prophet should not be interpreted. So what? It’s still a prediction of a future event, is it not?

Besides, should Daniel’s vision of future kingdoms in the form of a man with clay feet be seen as literal? Or do the various aspects of the man stand figuratively for actual future kingdoms? Please explain Daniel’s vision without interpretation.

Do you see everything in Revelations as literal and not figurative language? Or should those things be seen as figurative lamguage to explain future (prophetic) events?

You are missing the point, anyway. I did not ask if a prophecy should be interpreted. I was asking if a prophecy was a prediction of a future event. You were indicating prophets did not predict future events, which is the very meaning of prophecy.

 

[nPeace]

Okay, so a prediction made by a prophet should not be interpreted. So what? It’s still a prediction of a future event, is it not?

Besides, should Daniel’s vision of future kingdoms in the form of a man with clay feet be seen as literal? Or do the various aspects of the man stand figuratively for actual future kingdoms? Please explain Daniel’s vision without interpretation.

Do you see everything in Revelations as literal and not figurative language? Or should those things be seen as figurative lamguage to explain future (prophetic) events?

You are missing the point, anyway. I did not ask if a prophecy should be interpreted. I was asking if a prophecy was a prediction of a future event. You were indicating prophets did not predict future events, which is the very meaning of prophecy.

This I find is standard procedure of yours.
You ask me questions. You ask me to explain., and I do both. When I question you, or ask you to explain something, you leave without saying anything.
Currently there are about three discussions I have had with you, which you left like that. I am not doing a fourth.

If you want to continue any discussion, then let's first finish the previous three.

 

[Milton Platt]

This I find is standard procedure of yours.
You ask me questions. You ask me to explain., and I do both. When I question you, or ask you to explain something, you leave without saying anything.
Currently there are about three discussions I have had with you, which you left like that. I am not doing a fourth.

If you want to continue any discussion, then let's first finish the previous three.

Okay. What were they?

 

[nPeace]

Okay. What were they?

I'll search for them later. Currently I am busy.

 

[Milton Platt]

I'll search for them later. Currently I am busy.

Fair enough. I post to lots of threads, so I can lose track. I will look as well.