if God were real...?

[Etritonakin]

That's the thing, I did study it. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic religious training (CCD) my entire life up through confirmation around age 13. During that time I read the entire Bible through. I even went to a Jesuit high school (B.C. High) my freshman year. I read the Bible again cover to cover in college...albeit with a far different lens since I was taking a comparative religion course and by that time had lost all belief in the UberDude. I took several courses on religion in college and I'm still fascinated the subject today.

It's just that, unlike you and some others, the more I studied it, the LESS it made sense. I haven't seen anything happen as written in the Bible. I'll be waiting for that 7 headed dragon to show up though, that I gotta see.

It does take a proper lens. You indicated that you saw it through the lens given by CCD, etc. -and then through your own lens.

Though God is able to hide and reveal things from and to individuals -allow or deny a proper lens, the bible generally provides its own lens.

What is written in one place is further explained in another -for example.....

What is associated with the Babylonian Mystery religion -associated with persecution of Jesus' followers -associated with "the beast" (*who is the beast?) -a great city having sway over earthly political powers -located near seven mounts?

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

*Who is the beast -political and military power -though also describing one individual at the end -associated with the woman above -who will literally war with the returning Christ?
Who will soon to respond to terrorism in no uncertain terms -and then continue to the holy land?

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land,

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Isa 10:24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.
Isa 10:25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Who is the Assyrian?

Eze 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
Eze 31:4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;
Eze 17:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; A great eagle with great wings, longwinged, full of feathers, which had divers colours, came unto Lebanon, and took the highest branch of the cedar:
Eze 17:4 He cropped off the top of his young twigs, and carried it into a land of traffick; he set it in a city of merchants.
Eze 17:5 He took also of the seed of the land, and planted it in a fruitful field; he placed it by great waters, and set it as a willow tree.

Who began in Lebanon -went to a land of traffick/city of merchants -and then was placed by great waters?

"During the rise of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, what is today known as Lebanon, came under nominal Assyrian rule on several occasions"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia_under_Assyrian_rule)


"Ashur-uballit II refused to submit in vassalage to Cyaxares and Nabopolassar, and fought his way out of Nineveh during the siege and capture of that city by the Babylonian-Chaldean-Mede-Persian-Scythian-Cimmerian alliance in mid 612 BC. Thereafter, he reigned from the last capital city of Harran from 612 BC to somewhere between 608 and 605 BC."
"King of Assyria
612–609 BC"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashur-uballit_II)

"Merchant outpost
By the 19th century BCE, Harran was established as a merchant outpost due to its ideal location. The community, well established before then, was situated along a trade route between the Mediterranean and the plains of the middle Tigris.[8] It lay directly on the road from Antioch eastward to Nisibis and Ninevah. The Tigris could be followed down to the delta to Babylon"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran)

"Our own understanding is that the non-Israelite German population is basically derived from Gomer and the sons of Gomer, Ashkenaz, Togarmah, and Riphah.
See:
Gomer the Gentile. The Non-Israelite Section of the Gomerites
http://hebrewnations.com/articles/16/gentile.html
In addition the German population includes elements from Magog, from the Canaaanites and Philistines, from Edom, and from Assyria."
-
"
2. The Migration of Assyrians

To begin, one must logically suppose that the main portion of Assyria's populace, native and foreign Semite deportees, migrated together from the Fertile Crescent, Eurasian steppes, and into the northern and occidental regions of the European land mass. Other Assyrians were left behind and settled around Edessa [Black Sea shore in southern Ukraine] (Osrhoene, Urhai). They became the duskier Nestorian Aisor i.e. the brunette Caucasoids like the Rhinelanders and Bavarians.
Descendants of Assyrians today conduct themselves similarly to their ancestors, displaying the same jingoistic tendencies and proclivity for expansionism (Lebensraum) and efficiency.
===============================
===============================
3. National Characteristics of Assyrians

"Aid to Bible Understanding", copyright 1971, pages 151, 152 gives a description of the Assyrian nation as



"essentially a military power...the historical picture left of its exploits is...of great cruelty and rapaciousness."

"6. The Assyrians in Germany

Arab authors during the Dark Ages stated Assyrians and Germans are from the same source.
Barhebraeus and Muslim tradition also linked Persian Germanikah of Mosul (Nineveh) to them [7].
These can later become identified as the Hessian Chatti.
Medieval legend in Germany claimed Assyrian prince Trebeta, son of Ninus (Nimrod) and Queen Semiramis, founded Trier two thousand years before Julius Caesar's arrival (Josef K.L. Bihl, "In Deutschen Landen", pg. 69; Hans-Albert Becker, director of Trier's Tourist Information Office)."
(http://hebrewnations.com/articles/peoples/germany/assyria.html)

 

[truelight Mike]

Too much supposition here, don't you think???
You are assuming that Jesus is something other than perhaps a Bronze age Jew. You need to demonstrate that he is more than that, and then you have so demonstrate that the book you are quoting from is anything other than fables and myths. Nobody even knows for sure who wrote the short stories in it.

Even if it were a phony religion, the teachings of this "phony religion" are good enough to follow. Forgiveness, love ect.

But I don't think it is fake. 1 big reason is the message of Jesus. He tells his followers to not seek after wealth but to give to the poor (who ever made up this phony religion doesn’t seem to be concerned about money - odd don't you think ). He tells his followers not to fight their enemies but to do good to them (this person who made this up doesn't seem to be concerned about gaining military control- again odd) He tells His followers not to look down their noses at poor people or to do their good deeds to get noticed (whoever made this "phony religion up seems like he is just wanting people to be really good people )
That's 1 reason why I think Jesus is the real deal because if you follow His teachings you won't be famous, you won't be rich and you may get taken advantage of, but you will have lived the way that God intended all of us to live, selflessly

Now of course organizations have tried to use this pure message for their own agenda. But as soon as you compare them to the teachings of Christ you can see them for what THEY are - phony

 

[Kartari]

Hi Mike,

Question -
If God were real ... and If we were all created by this God ...and if he was good and if he loved all the people that he created and his intentions and motives were perfect and He had our best interest in mind, would you follow him? And Why? if you don't mind

For me, the idea of being a follower is itself problematic. I prefer to think critically and intelligently about things, to form my own conclusions. The lack of independent thought is actually what I would cite as among humanity's utmost causes of problems in the world. And to be frank, I would expect a superior being, God or otherwise, to understand, respect, and expect likewise for humanity.

Also, I find the Christian idea of a benevolent creator God logically inconsistent with reality as we know it, though that's perhaps another topic.

 

[Etritonakin]

If the benevolent creator God understood that humans would need to think independently about their situation -rather than following his every word -even if it meant misery due to human's ignorance -would not that be evidenced by God essentially leaving them to their own devices for the most part until such time as they acknowledged that God's word was sound?

On one hand, we want to think and act independently within a reality which is far beyond our power to control or ability to completely understand -on the other we wonder why God would leave us to experience the nature of reality and the end of our own individual and collective ways.

 

[Kartari]

Hello Etritonakin,

If the benevolent creator God understood that humans would need to think independently about their situation -rather than following his every word -even if it meant misery due to human's ignorance -would not that be evidenced by God essentially leaving them to their own devices for the most part until such time as they acknowledged that God's word was sound?

On one hand, we want to think and act independently within a reality which is far beyond our power to control or ability to completely understand -on the other we wonder why God would leave us to experience the nature of reality and the end of our own individual and collective ways.

I'm not sure if this was addressed to me or not, but it seems addressed to me.

To my thinking, the logic behind the free will argument, as I perceive you are describing, is fundamentally flawed. Given a benevolent Creator God attributed with omniscience and omnipotence, this God could have hypothetically created a version of humanity with far more inherent wisdom than it has, and without compromising human freedom whatsoever. This would have made far more sense imo within the context of Christian theology. It would have prevented the egregiously unfathomable and cumulative suffering humans throughout time and place have caused and experienced, historically and presently, and all without compromising our freedom. I really cannot find a single valid excuse for such a deity to not have done this from the start, given the qualities attributed to this God by Christians. I am forced to conclude that this deity is a logically invalid proposition, given the world as we know it.

 

[Etritonakin]

Hello Etritonakin,



I'm not sure if this was addressed to me or not, but it seems addressed to me.

To my thinking, the logic behind the free will argument, as I perceive you are describing, is fundamentally flawed. Given a benevolent Creator God attributed with omniscience and omnipotence, this God could have hypothetically created a version of humanity with far more inherent wisdom than it has, and without compromising human freedom whatsoever. This would have made far more sense imo within the context of Christian theology. It would have prevented the egregiously unfathomable and cumulative suffering humans throughout time and place have caused and experienced, historically and presently, and all without compromising our freedom. I really cannot find a single valid excuse for such a deity to not have done this from the start, given the qualities attributed to this God by Christians. I am forced to conclude that this deity is a logically invalid proposition, given the world as we know it.

Having inherent "wisdom" -which really means knowledge -does not equate to making proper choices. We often do what we know to be wrong for many reasons or no reason at all.
Forcing one to make proper choices removes choice.

Giving us increased knowledge would give us greater power to affect our environment -it would not automatically lead to better choices, and would likely have led to our self-destruction sooner.

This....
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

postponed this.....
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

Knowledge can be given -wisdom comes mostly by personal experience -and incorruptibility comes by trial.

God did not intend to make many generations of happy humans, but millions and millions of incorruptible gods -Christ being called "the firstborn of many brethren".

This is actually written about Satan -who initially had far more power and wisdom than any man......

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

We see things as they are -because we are experiencing them now, but how would you feel about things if God reversed and nullified every bad thing that has ever happened?
Though we might not understand it, this experience is necessary -but it is also temporary.
God has essentially already made everything new -it just hasn't taken effect yet.
He has already declared that he will -and that cannot be changed.
Meanwhile, we are being prepared to accept it and not destroy it as we destroy the earth and each other.

All of human history is essentially a rearrangement of generally the same set of atoms.
However, from history has been created many awesome minds. Those minds will also be made incorruptible, bodies made whole and even greatly improved, pain removed, hearts of stone renewed, loved ones reunited, etc., etc. -and the former things will eventually not be called to mind -and we will inhabit the universe as immortals not needing to be micromanaged -with no concern that we will ever repeat that which happened on Earth in the past -but that future could not be without this past.

 

[Etritonakin]

I'm not saying that every individual needs to go through what they go through.
The point is actually that they did not -do not -and most of the suffering on earth comes from humans making choices which affect everything and everyone else -which is what people say God should allow.
God is allowing it -so that we can realize that we need to listen to him as we learn more.

God does not want people to follow him because he is arrogant -but because it is necessary for our well-being and survival.
Following God means abiding by a few simple rules which keep things orderly and grounded -and being open to his instruction and teaching.

God is able to correct our mistakes, but there is no point in doing so eternally if we are just going to create more chaos.
Being consistently rejected -somewhat understandably so because we could not initially know him -he gave us over to what we consistently wanted -and would continue to want generation after generation -after pleading with man to reconsider. So, he gave us over -for the most part -to the effects of our choices -and to a lack of his abilities and guidance -so that we could fully explore that path.

Allowing human history -to a point where there is no question that -along with some awesome achievements -we only produced misery overall and would destroy ourselves -will leave no doubt as to the necessity of following one who is all-knowledgeable, has our best interest at heart and is able to correct our mistakes.

After we are allowed to nearly destroy humanity and possibly all other earthly life, he will then begin to correct every last one of our mistakes -raise every last one of us from the dead and heal every edverse effect. Those in the first resurrection will be made immortal then, and will make up the government and priesthood under Christ on Earth for a thousand years -during which the humans which survived will repopulate. Peace will be enforced as it is taught. The rest of the dead will be raised after the thousand years and judged according to their works -some of which were rather good. Some will receive eternal life then -others will be purified and prepared to receive eternal life. Those who utterly refuse can be destroyed -but that is not to say they will.

The former works on Earth will eventually be burnt up. The surface of the Earth will be renewed and radically changed to allow for greater resources and building materials for the human population. The nature of animals will be changed so they are no longer a danger.

There will be no war among humans during the thousand years -and only one last attempt afterward -which will not be successful.

After the thousand years the universe will begin to be inhabited and we will create awesome things throughout it. Having been made incorruptible and learned peace, there will be no war throughout the universe.

We will be given "glorious" bodies which will allow us to have extreme power over even cosmic events similar to that by which the Word created the universe.

All of that is in the bible -and all of that will happen.

That which is now will fade from memory.

 

[sojourner]

Question -
If God were real ... and If we were all created by this God ...and if he was good and if he loved all the people that he created and his intentions and motives were perfect and He had our best interest in mind, would you follow him? And Why? if you don't mind

What if God were reality?

 

[Kartari]

Hi Etritonakin,

Having inherent "wisdom" -which really means knowledge -does not equate to making proper choices. We often do what we know to be wrong for many reasons or no reason at all.

Forcing one to make proper choices removes choice.

Giving us increased knowledge would give us greater power to affect our environment -it would not automatically lead to better choices, and would likely have led to our self-destruction sooner.

This....
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

postponed this.....
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

Knowledge can be given -wisdom comes mostly by personal experience -and incorruptibility comes by trial.

God did not intend to make many generations of happy humans, but millions and millions of incorruptible gods -Christ being called "the firstborn of many brethren".

This is actually written about Satan -who initially had far more power and wisdom than any man......

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

We see things as they are -because we are experiencing them now, but how would you feel about things if God reversed and nullified every bad thing that has ever happened?
Though we might not understand it, this experience is necessary -but it is also temporary.
God has essentially already made everything new -it just hasn't taken effect yet.
He has already declared that he will -and that cannot be changed.
Meanwhile, we are being prepared to accept it and not destroy it as we destroy the earth and each other.

All of human history is essentially a rearrangement of generally the same set of atoms.
However, from history has been created many awesome minds. Those minds will also be made incorruptible, bodies made whole and even greatly improved, pain removed, hearts of stone renewed, loved ones reunited, etc., etc. -and the former things will eventually not be called to mind -and we will inhabit the universe as immortals not needing to be micromanaged -with no concern that we will ever repeat that which happened on Earth in the past -but that future could not be without this past.

Sorry, allow me clarify. When I say wisdom, I don't mean mere information. I mean it as awareness or maturity, a deeper understanding of things. I'd add empathy and compassion as well to the mix. Information can help too, but when I deem someone wise, I am really saying something more to their maturity and understanding, their insight, their integrity, their empathy, not so much the accumulated information in their brain. Someone who is not small-minded who acts more instinctively, nor someone similar with more information, but someone who is more broad-minded and intuitively responds with a careful consideration of things.

A fool puts their hand in an open flame, and gets burned. A wise person knows better. The fire will burn, so they opt to not burn themselves, viewing it as foolish to do otherwise. It's not that the wise person lacks freedom, or is forced to not burn themselves. Rather, the wise person simply possesses the wherewithal to avoid putting their hand in an open flame. The wise person knows there is no good reason to experience a burning hand.

 

[Kartari]

Hi again,

I'm not saying that every individual needs to go through what they go through.
The point is actually that they did not -do not -and most of the suffering on earth comes from humans making choices which affect everything and everyone else...

I agree with you here. A lot of the suffering we experience is caused by ourselves.

-which is what people say God should allow.
God is allowing it -so that we can realize that we need to listen to him as we learn more...

All of which would be entirely unnecessary to experience if we were more mature beings from the start. Hence, my point.

God does not want people to follow him because he is arrogant -but because it is necessary for our well-being and survival.
Following God means abiding by a few simple rules which keep things orderly and grounded -and being open to his instruction and teaching.

God is able to correct our mistakes, but there is no point in doing so eternally if we are just going to create more chaos.
Being consistently rejected -somewhat understandably so because we could not initially know him -he gave us over to what we consistently wanted -and would continue to want generation after generation -after pleading with man to reconsider. So, he gave us over -for the most part -to the effects of our choices -and to a lack of his abilities and guidance -so that we could fully explore that path.

Allowing human history -to a point where there is no question that -along with some awesome achievements -we only produced misery overall and would destroy ourselves -will leave no doubt as to the necessity of following one who is all-knowledgeable, has our best interest at heart and is able to correct our mistakes.

After we are allowed to nearly destroy humanity and possibly all other earthly life, he will then begin to correct every last one of our mistakes -raise every last one of us from the dead and heal every edverse effect. Those in the first resurrection will be made immortal then, and will make up the government and priesthood under Christ on Earth for a thousand years -during which the humans which survived will repopulate. Peace will be enforced as it is taught. The rest of the dead will be raised after the thousand years and judged according to their works -some of which were rather good. Some will receive eternal life then -others will be purified and prepared to receive eternal life. Those who utterly refuse can be destroyed -but that is not to say they will.

The former works on Earth will eventually be burnt up. The surface of the Earth will be renewed and radically changed to allow for greater resources and building materials for the human population. The nature of animals will be changed so they are no longer a danger.

There will be no war among humans during the thousand years -and only one last attempt afterward -which will not be successful.

After the thousand years the universe will begin to be inhabited and we will create awesome things throughout it. Having been made incorruptible and learned peace, there will be no war throughout the universe.

We will be given "glorious" bodies which will allow us to have extreme power over even cosmic events similar to that by which the Word created the universe.

All of that is in the bible -and all of that will happen.

That which is now will fade from memory.

Well, I don't want to sidetrack this thread with debates beyond the scope of what Mike set out in the OP. Lets just say that I find the prospect of rewards, however great and eternal they're claimed to be, insufficient cause for what amounts to imho an egregiously unfathomable and needless quantity of suffering throughout history.

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi again,



I agree with you here. A lot of the suffering we experience is caused by ourselves.



All of which would be entirely unnecessary to experience if we were more mature beings from the start. Hence, my point.



Well, I don't want to sidetrack this thread with debates beyond the scope of what Mike set out in the OP. Lets just say that I find the prospect of rewards, however great and eternal they're claimed to be, insufficient cause for what amounts to imho an egregiously unfathomable and needless quantity of suffering throughout history.

How can one be more mature from the start? That one would be another -not a one.

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi Etritonakin,



Sorry, allow me clarify. When I say wisdom, I don't mean mere information. I mean it as awareness or maturity, a deeper understanding of things. I'd add empathy and compassion as well to the mix. Information can help too, but when I deem someone wise, I am really saying something more to their maturity and understanding, their insight, their integrity, their empathy, not so much the accumulated information in their brain. Someone who is not small-minded who acts more instinctively, nor someone similar with more information, but someone who is more broad-minded and intuitively responds with a careful consideration of things.

A fool puts their hand in an open flame, and gets burned. A wise person knows better. The fire will burn, so they opt to not burn themselves, viewing it as foolish to do otherwise. It's not that the wise person lacks freedom, or is forced to not burn themselves. Rather, the wise person simply possesses the wherewithal to avoid putting their hand in an open flame. The wise person knows there is no good reason to experience a burning hand.

You cannot have a deeper understanding of things until you understand things deeper than you can be given.
I can tell you exactly how it is -and explain every last point -but you can still disbelieve until you have lived it.
I can give you everything -you can even understand logically -yet you can still say "why should I believe you without proof -without experience?"

 

[Etritonakin]

Anyway... To bring it back around to the subject.....

If following God would produce awesomeness -why would we not all do it?
Even if everyone kept the latter commandments, the world would be far more awesome -and everyone can see the overall wisdom of not killing -not stealing -not lying -not having sex all willy nilly so families are all messed up, etc., etc...

Yet, we still do those things. Should we have been programmed to do it -or is there's some reason we must master it ourselves?
Could we still be individuals if programmed -would we even be able to think that God should allow us to have freedom?
Is there some reason God decided that we need to decide and choose to do rightly ourselves -rather than give us no choice in the matter?
If he gave us creativity and choice -yet we are programmed to be incapable of applying that to obeying him because his laws were perfect -would we not feel that should also be our choice?

We are not rewarded for the suffering -which has been regardless, mind you -we learn not to repeat it -and we are given an opportunity to not repeat it. Humans throughout history will not simply have suffered and died.

It has all happened, regardless -and I am glad there is actually a point to it -and that all of it will be nullified. Not only will all suffering be healed -but will eventually no longer be a memory to consider.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Etritonakin,

How can one be more mature from the start? That one would be another -not a one.

Do you believe God is omnipotent and omniscient? Do you also believe God is benevolent? If so, what would prevent God from bestowing a greater, innate insight into our own and other people's motives and desires, into the causes of our own and others' suffering? Or to put it another way, with respect to the consequences of actions?

In addition to this, what would prevent God from also increasing everyone's innate IQ by, say, 50% or more, leading to a much greater capacity to effectively and comprehensively understand and respond to or solve the complexities and problems with our existence?

With these improvements, I expect humanity would be faring far better overall than it presently does, and especially compared with how it's done in the past. And I fail to see how any of these improvements would compromise our free will. They'd simply make us a lot more intelligent about our decisions. I fail to see any reason why a benevolent deity, given the powers of omniscience and omnipotence attributed to it by many Christians, would not do so. Hence, why I believe an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent deity is a logical impossibility given the world we know.

I range from weak atheist to agnostic with respect to deity concepts in general, btw. But concerning this particular form of God, I'm a strong atheist.

 

[1robin]

Question -
If God were real ... and If we were all created by this God ...and if he was good and if he loved all the people that he created and his intentions and motives were perfect and He had our best interest in mind, would you follow him? And Why? if you don't mind

This requires clarification. Are you calling into to question any of the things you mention? I.e. God's existence? His omnipotence? His love for humanity? The explanation of our existence? His intentions for us? The merits of following him?

You leave many things out of your post. I do not know what question to answer. Can you clarify please?

 

[Demonslayer]

Though God is able to hide and reveal things from and to individuals

First a comment, I...and most other people...tune out posts where 47 pages of Bible quotes are cut and pasted. I don't mind a quote here or there if it supports a specific point, but no one gets anything out of multiple paragraphs of cut n paste quotes.

Now, on to the comment. Why would God hide something from me and show it to you? Is He intentionally deceiving? I thought that was Satan's game?

the bible generally provides its own lens.

Than how can you explain 100 people reading the Bible and coming away with 100 different interpretations?

 

[savagewind]

Why would God hide something from me and show it to you?

I do not know why God might hide anything from anyone, but I know how some people can see, and some can not see.

It is written, "those who have, more will be given". There is some intelligence that needs a base line or the right foundation for which to build on. If you do not have the right base, you would not understand the idea.

 

[Demonslayer]

but I know how some people can see, and some can not see.

So then if God sets it up so some people can see (presumably the ones who are religious) and some cannot see (presumably folks like myself who are not.) how can He blame those for which He didn't give the power to see?

Isn't that a set up job?

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi Etritonakin,



Do you believe God is omnipotent and omniscient? Do you also believe God is benevolent? If so, what would prevent God from bestowing a greater, innate insight into our own and other people's motives and desires, into the causes of our own and others' suffering? Or to put it another way, with respect to the consequences of actions?

In addition to this, what would prevent God from also increasing everyone's innate IQ by, say, 50% or more, leading to a much greater capacity to effectively and comprehensively understand and respond to or solve the complexities and problems with our existence?

With these improvements, I expect humanity would be faring far better overall than it presently does, and especially compared with how it's done in the past. And I fail to see how any of these improvements would compromise our free will. They'd simply make us a lot more intelligent about our decisions. I fail to see any reason why a benevolent deity, given the powers of omniscience and omnipotence attributed to it by many Christians, would not do so. Hence, why I believe an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent deity is a logical impossibility given the world we know.

I range from weak atheist to agnostic with respect to deity concepts in general, btw. But concerning this particular form of God, I'm a strong atheist.

In creating individuals, God essentially gave over a certain amount of power to them and also gave the power of choice and decision to them -from himself.

You seem to be saying that intelligence, knowledge and understanding will automatically cause people to the "right" thing.
That is just not the case.
If God made us unable to err or disobey him, we would not truly be individuals -would not be "free" or have "free will" -which seems rather important to everyone.
An individual can know and understand perfectly -and still act differently.
However, experience can change that. One can know something, but living it and feeling it is when it becomes personal -and when individuals weary of doing and experiencing evil -which can be rather fun in the beginning. Some can do the math, as it were, and choose correctly, but that is not always or even often the case.

It is extremely important that individuals obey God willingly -able to say that it is their own choice. It is important for their happiness -so that they do not feel oppressed -and it is also necessary that they be involved in their own perfection.

You may not believe it to be the case, but the angel who became the adversary was given extreme power, intelligence, understanding, instruction, etc., etc., -but all he had to go by was God's word. He was a newly-created being and this unknown person was telling him things. He had no reference of experience.
He was told the truth, but disbelieved.
It was perfectly logical -but he had not proved it/experienced that it was the truth.
Therefore, God allows disobedience so that he will eventually be known to be who he says he is -and what he says to do can be known to be right.
Thereby temptation can be eventually completely removed.


"I went out there
In search of experience
To taste and to touch
And to feel as much
As a man can
Before he repents" -Johnny Cash and U2 -The Wanderer

 

[savagewind]

So then if God sets it up so some people can see (presumably the ones who are religious) and some cannot see (presumably folks like myself who are not.) how can He blame those for which He didn't give the power to see?

Isn't that a set up job?

I don't believe God lays blame on anyone.

If insight by the Holy Spirit is offered somehow to a person and the person keeps rejecting it (of course, at first there is no way to know what it is and where it comes from because you have no foundation) then all that would be to come by chance now, will be nonsense because God is not of this world.

I have sometimes wondered if it is what Matthew 12:32 is describing. The word spoken against The Holy Spirit in that illustration is, "no". I think it means you can say no to Jesus, but if you say no to The Holy Spirit your saying no will result in not having what the Holy Spirit has to give you.

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

http://biblehub.com/greek/863.htm

Strong's 836 "forgiven"
from apo and hiémi (to send)
Definition
to send away, leave alone, permit
NASB Translation
abandoned (1), allow (5), allowed (2), divorce (2), forgave (2), forgive (23), forgiven (23), forgives (1), gave...permission (1), leave (7), leaves (2), leaving (8), left (38), let (9), let...alone (6), let him have (1), neglected (1), neglecting (2), permit (6), permitted (1), permitting (1), send...away (1), tolerate (1), uttered (1), yielded (1).