If God existed, under these conditions, would there be any atheists?

[rational experiences]

History of life on Earth its origins O a stone mass not in any fission state.

Male group human science cult beginnings said I will form a formula owning a beginning and an end....but said stone owned no beginning for it never did and it owned no end...for stone was actually stone as the end = stone.

Science today took the nuclear model of their science formula.....ground dust chemical fission...from its origins...first activation, on the ground of the God O stone planet that they UFO irradiated attacked by pyramid cause/temple science.

Science today does nuclear power plant fission, no human being emerges in the reaction to claim the bible quote belief of Satanists that God invented a human life from ground fission....so that form of scientist mind says....I have proven you wrong bible believers.

Science however uses machines and the machines are against our natural life survival and attack us, whilst they own control of those machines claiming self is safe.

Male human mentality on Earth claiming self is safe doing science.

Males calculate -------------a formula upon a lined numbered equation...so space owner of cold radiation held frozen mass, is changed so that males can do science to open a spatial porthole of hot radiation points...to pass through a ground fission reaction to the planet.

Hence says on the cycle 0 I meet + the place of my sacrifice life, due to God the stone being removed....and mass of stone then tries to meet the planet as a Messenger of God returned by the cosmos....by conditions cause and effect, spatial activation of changing held frozen bodies in space just floating into activated stone burning gas movement...like a projectile.

Males named that state in science to be a Messenger of God....so huge bodies of stone plough into the Earth body. Therefore irradiated ancient male chemical brain lost to fall out attacks....then begins to heal and return to self awareness due to out of space cooling by stone mass bodies releasing their gases and putting gases into heated space.....so then discusses by hearing his old science information owned by a higher self....that caused his lower behaviour mind state...to reinherit a chemical balanced awareness and he then thinks self personally special gaining special personal messages.

When in cause and effect science historic causes...he did it to his own male science self by group cult science agreement....caused it by machines....machines proved that no God spirit keeps anyone safe on Earth in its spirit heavens.

Messenger and the advice proved that it was given back by other bodies in space of incoming stone crossings....and then males today studying asking secret scientific questions on multi forums are trying to find pathways in space for some kind of scientific DATA....as if this information will assist their machine reactions today.

The reason for all the questions and arguments.

 

[Tiberius]

But then you would need no faith.....and your decision would not be based on a relationship with God, but only what you see with your eyes. How long do you think that would last? Israel saw many miracles with their own eyes, but that was not enough to prevent them from forgetting those amazing displays of God's power and getting themselves confined to wandering as nomads in a wilderness for 40 years.

If people put faith in science, believing in evolution based on nothing but the suggestions and unprovable assertions made by imperfect men promoting an imperfect theory, then that is their choice. We all demonstrate faith in small ways every day....and our lives depend on many of them.....but our future lives depend on our faith in God. Faith and trust go hand in hand....you can't have faith and trust in someone you don't know. Without God there is nothing to look forward to in the future....

Why do you think any relationship based on evidence is doomed to failure? I've been in a relationship with my girlfriend for a decade, and I've had plenty of evidence that she is real. And it's going stronger than ever.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have told you what the evidence is.

What is the evidence for any of the messengers starting with Jesus and going back?

Do you think that prophecies constitute proof that a Messenger of God is who he claimed to be? If you think that they are, I can give you some Bible prophecies that are specific

Do you believe the Christians were correct about the prophecies they say were fulfilled by Jesus? Especially the ones that are stated in the NT?

Some allegorical meanings of the story are given in this short chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Genesis is written as if it is history, but Baha'is say Adam and Eve is allegorical. At what point did it stop being a mythical, allegorical story and actually describe true historical events? Or, is all of Genesis allegorical? Please state the official Baha'i interpretation if you can, because I've heard your opinion several times... "I could give a rip." "Who cares. They are just stories." Unless of course that is the official Baha'i view.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the evidence for any of the messengers starting with Jesus and going back?

The evidence for any Messenger of God is His own Self (His character); His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and His words (His Writings or what was written and attributed to Him).

Do you believe the Christians were correct about the prophecies they say were fulfilled by Jesus? Especially the ones that are stated in the NT?

I do not know what prophecies you are referring to, but if Jesus fulfilled them then the Christians are correct.

Genesis is written as if it is history, but Baha'is say Adam and Eve is allegorical. At what point did it stop being a mythical, allegorical story and actually describe true historical events? Or, is all of Genesis allegorical?

I don't know, I would look at what religious scholars and historians say to determine if it is a real historical account. Jews and Christians do not all believe the same way about this.

The Book of Genesis is often interpreted to be a factual and historical account of how the earth was created by the Judeo-Christian God, and the earliest accounts of mankind.
Interpretations of Genesis - Wikipedia

Other Jews and Christians have long regarded the creation account of Genesis as an allegory - even prior to the development of modern science and the scientific accounts (based on the scientific method) of cosmological, biological and human origins.
Allegorical interpretations of Genesis - Wikipedia

Please state the official Baha'i interpretation if you can, because I've heard your opinion several times... "I could give a rip." "Who cares. They are just stories." Unless of course that is the official Baha'i view.

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar16.

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[BibleTales001]

This is a follow up thread to my previous thread:

If God existed, would there be any atheists?

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

If God didn't exist there would be no atheist. Trying to prove he does exist. Therfore one can come to the conclusion that he must exist. The real problem I believe atheist have, is if God existed why did they have to suffer and see things they shouldn't have. There's a logical reason for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God didn't exist there would be no atheist.

However, the fact that there are atheists is not proof that God exists.

atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. atheist means - Google Search

Atheism is about belief, but beliefs do not determine reality. In reality, God either exists or not. What people believe has no bearing on whether God exists or not.

Trying to prove he does exist. Therefore one can come to the conclusion that he must exist. The real problem I believe atheist have, is if God existed why did they have to suffer and see things they shouldn't have. There's a logical reason for that.

I do not understand. Why can we come to the conclusion that God exists?
If God exists, what is the logical reason why atheists have had to suffer and see things they shouldn't have seen?

 

[QuestioningMind]

So how is that related to whether a God exists or not? Do you think that people’s religious beliefs equate to reality?

Which prophecy was that? I do not recall you responding to the last prophecy I sent but I could be mistaken.

This is the one I sent before to which I do not recall you responded. There are others that are precise if this one is not adequate.





The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

So how is that related to whether a God exists or not? Do you think that people’s religious beliefs equate to reality?

You tell me. You're the one who stated that 93% of people believe in a god as if it was relevant in some way.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Okay... two questions. Who are the 'thee' that he will come to, from Assyria? That is to say, who is the prophecy claiming he will even come to? Second question: Since as you say Assyria was a very large area, why is the fact that he traveled from there significant to you, in that I would assume that from such a large area many people also traveled from Assyria to this same place.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

As for the rest, all it says is that he will come from 'fortified cities' and a 'fortress on the river' as well as from 'mountain to mountain and sea to sea'. This is precisely the vaugness of prophecy that I was talking about. In ancient Assyia there were NUMEROUS fortified cities and NUMEROUS fortresses on the river. Endless different mountains and lots of seas. Saying that someone traveled from 'mountain to mountain and sea to sea, is WAY too vague to be of any worth. MAYBE if the prophecy spoke of SPECIFIC mountains and SPECIFIC fortified cities it might have some value. Even better would be giving PRECISE dates of WHEN he would arrived at various SPECIFIC places.

I suspect that there are dozens if not hundreds of people who came from Assyria traveled to many mountains and fortified cities who ended up at wherever it is the prophecy claims he would end up. People traveling from a very large area where there are many mountains and cities is relatively common and citing the fact that your proposed prophet did so as well doesn't hold much water in my book.

Finally, WHO specifically is it that claims that he came from the places you mentioned and did all of the things that the supposed prophecy said he would? What qualifications do they have that I should accept them at face value?

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah.

I looked at the link. Sorry, but I simply don't have sufficient interest to read nearly 300 pages in order to find the examples of what you consider to be the 30 specific things that Baha'u'llah supposedly predicted. Care to tell me what you think the two or three most convincing are?

Other than sending Messengers, what other method could God use to convey information to humans? I have been asking atheists this question for years and so far they have not had any answers that make would work to accomplish what the Messengers accomplished. The answer “God could deliver the message Himself” is too inane to even entertain, because God is not a material being who makes deliveries. The answer “an omniscient God would know what to do” also is not an answer.

Sorry, but I have no idea why you think that is so inane. CLEARLY your god IS capable of delivering his message directly, since you claim that your god gave his message to God's Messengers to pass along to the rest of us. I see later i this post you claim that these messengers are really human beings... that they're some sort higher manifestation. What are you basing this on, other than the fact that if it ISN'T true then there's absolutely no reason why your god couldn't communicate directly to everyone?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how is that related to whether a God exists or not? Do you think that people’s religious beliefs equate to reality?

You tell me. You're the one who stated that 93% of people believe in a god as if it was relevant in some way.

The only way it is relevant, and why it came up in the first place, is that it is more likely that there is a God than that there is no God given that percentage of the world population believes in God. Logically speaking, why would THAT many people believe in a nonexistent entity, many of whom take that beef very seriously and live their lives according to such a belief? The different religions they believe in and thus the God conceptions they have is irrelevant.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Okay... two questions. Who are the 'thee' that he will come to, from Assyria? That is to say, who is the prophecy claiming he will even come to? Second question: Since as you say Assyria was a very large area, why is the fact that he traveled from there significant to you, in that I would assume that from such a large area many people also traveled from Assyria to this same place.

“Thee” are the people who were/are waiting for the Messiah. The Jews would believe it refers to them if they believe this verse was about the Messiah. Baha’is believe that the Messiah came to/for everyone in the world.

Assyria is significant because at that Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia. It would not be significant if Baha’u’llah had not traveled from Assyria to all the other locations on that map I posted, which fulfill the rest of the prophecy.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

As for the rest, all it says is that he will come from 'fortified cities' and a 'fortress on the river' as well as from 'mountain to mountain and sea to sea'. This is precisely the vaugness of prophecy that I was talking about. In ancient Assyia there were NUMEROUS fortified cities and NUMEROUS fortresses on the river. Endless different mountains and lots of seas. Saying that someone traveled from 'mountain to mountain and sea to sea, is WAY too vague to be of any worth. MAYBE if the prophecy spoke of SPECIFIC mountains and SPECIFIC fortified cities it might have some value. Even better would be giving PRECISE dates of WHEN he would arrived at various SPECIFIC places.

Those prophecies were not intended to be used to PROVE who the Messiah would be and that is one reason they are not too specific yet they are just specific enough such that if someone knew of Baha’u’llah’s exiles and banishments then they could link it up with Baha’u’llah as William Sears did in his book.

Had God wanted that to be a dead giveaway of exactly who the Messiah would be, God could have had Micah write down all those specifics that you require.

No offense intended, but I almost died laughing, because I consider it so funny that anyone would expect a prophet of God to write that way, as if he was writing an instruction manual: “how to find a Messiah.”

Aside from the fact that prophecies were never intended to be used as PROOF of who the Messiah would be, probably another reason specifics are not given in prophecies is because that would make it too easy to recognize who the Messiah is. God does not like making things easy, as you well know.

So why did I provide you with the prophecy? Because you asked and said you thought it would be proof; I knew better though.

I suspect that there are dozens if not hundreds of people who came from Assyria traveled to many mountains and fortified cities who ended up at wherever it is the prophecy claims he would end up. People traveling from a very large area where there are many mountains and cities is relatively common and citing the fact that your proposed prophet did so as well doesn't hold much water in my book.

But did they claim to be the Messiah later and did they do all the OTHER things that Baha’u’llah did in his life and on His Mission? No, nobody else did that. Moreover, nobody else fulfilled all the OTHER prophecies Baha’u’llah fulfilled by His coming either, so it is kind of a no-brainier for those who (a) think logically, and (b) do the research of His Life and Mission. But sadly, most people do not want to take the time to do the work so they will miss out. They take a peek in the door but they never walk through it and do hard research. That is exactly how God set it up in order to eliminate those who are not really serious about believing, because God only wants believers who make a sincere effort to believe in Him.

Finally, WHO specifically is it that claims that he came from the places you mentioned and did all of the things that the supposed prophecy said he would? What qualifications do they have that I should accept them at face value?

It was Baha’u’llah, who Baha’is believe was the Messiah and the return of Christ. I would NEVER expect you to take that at face value and neither would Baha’u’llah:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah.

I looked at the link. Sorry, but I simply don't have sufficient interest to read nearly 300 pages in order to find the examples of what you consider to be the 30 specific things that Baha'u'llah supposedly predicted. Care to tell me what you think the two or three most convincing are?

Having see your reaction to the Bible prophecy above, I highly doubt that the predictions Baha'u'llah made would be convincing to you, because you would say they are not specific enough. Also, it is notable that His predictions fall in the same category as the prophecies that were fulfilled by His Coming; they were not given with the intention of being proof of His Prophethood. Most of them were given as warnings of what would happen if the kings and rulers did not heed His call. However, since I have them all written up and saved in Word documents, I will copy/paste a couple for you.

Excerpts from the Tablet to Napoleon III:

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City: ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ ……. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

Ere long the world and all that thou possessest will perish, and the kingdom will remain unto God, thy Lord and the Lord of thy fathers of old. It behoveth thee not to conduct thine affairs according to the dictates of thy desires. Fear the sighs of this Wronged One, and shield Him from the darts of such as act unjustly.

For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’” Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, pp. 18-20

That Tablet was written in 1869 when Napoleon was at the height of His glory. In 1870, Napoleon III fell in battle:

In July 1870, Napoleon entered the Franco-Prussian War without allies and with inferior military forces. The French army was rapidly defeated and Napoleon III was captured at the Battle of Sedan.
Napoleon III - Wikipedia​

EVERYTHING that Baha’u’llah predicted came to pass. All those who rejected His Tablets fell from power just as He had warned them would happen. Those who persecuted Him and exiled and banished Him met with an ever sorrier fate. This is all history so it cannot be refuted. The only monarch He addressed that did not fall from power was Queen Victoria, because she did not reject Baha’u’llah:

Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha'u'llah, remarked: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm." (pdc 65) (18:49)
From: 2nd Coming of Christ by David Yamartino

Baha’u’llah also foresaw WWI and WWII in His Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

Other than sending Messengers, what other method could God use to convey information to humans? I have been asking atheists this question for years and so far they have not had any answers that make would work to accomplish what the Messengers accomplished. The answer “God could deliver the message Himself” is too inane to even entertain, because God is not a material being who makes deliveries.

The answer “an omniscient God would know what to do” also is not an answer.

Sorry, but I have no idea why you think that is so inane. CLEARLY your god IS capable of delivering his message directly, since you claim that your god gave his message to God's Messengers to pass along to the rest of us.

Apparently there are things you do not understand. One thing is that ordinary humans could never understand God if God spoke to them directly because they do not have divine mind as Messengers do; I already explained that in a previous post: “The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.”

The other thing is that even if ordinary humans could understand God directly, what would be the point of God delivering the same exact message to all of the 7.6 BILLION people in the world, when God can convey that message to one man you can make it available to ALL these people? Not only THAT, but Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets. Would God deliver all those Tablets to all of the 7.6 billion people in the world and could most of those people even understand them?

So let’s say God delivered that same message to everyone in the world; how would they KNOW it was God speaking to them? And even if they could know, if everyone got their own message, how would that create any cohesiveness in the world? There are enough holes in this “direct communication to everyone” argument to sink a large ocean liner.

I see later i this post you claim that these messengers are really human beings... that they're some sort higher manifestation. What are you basing this on, other than the fact that if it ISN'T true then there's absolutely no reason why your god couldn't communicate directly to everyone?

You do ask good questions, and did I not say that If Messengers of God were fallible human beings, there would be no reason to put our faith in them? So before we believe a THING they say we try to determine if we believe that were who they claimed to be, and since Baha’u’llah is the claimant for this age, He is the one to look at.

But even if they were just ordinary men, as Jews believe about Moses and as Muslims believe about Muhammad, there is already a boatload of reasons why direct communication to everyone would be a ridiculous idea, fir the reasons noted above. There is only one reason what this idea is even suggested; because atheists won’t accept Messengers as being from God.

 

[night912]

Here is what I said in the OP:

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

I said if God wants everyone to believe in him but I did not say that God always gets what he wants.

God can get whatever He wants since God is omnipotent, but God might not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists. God might want people to choose to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice.

That would logically violate your premise.

If "but God might not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists," then that means that he doesn't want everyone to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

That would logically violate your premise.

If "but God might not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists," then that means that he doesn't want everyone to believe.

No, that does not mean God doesn’t want everyone to believe. It means God does not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists. God wants everyone to choose to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice.

In other words, God does not want to use His omnipotent power to influence our choices.

 

[night912]

No, that does not mean God doesn’t want everyone to believe. It means God does not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists. God wants everyone to choose to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice.

In other words, God does not want to use His omnipotent power to influence our choices.

That means god doesn't want everyone to believe. Wanting only those who "choose" does not mean everyone. So you've contradicted your premise.

 

[Trailblazer]

That means god doesn't want everyone to believe. Wanting only those who "choose" does not mean everyone. So you've contradicted your premise.

No, it does not mean that. It means that God does not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists.

God wants everyone to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice, not because God used His omnipotent power to make everyone believe in Him.

The fact that everyone will not choose to believe in God by virtue of their own free will is a moot point. God still wants that to happen.

In other words, God wants everyone to choose to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice.

 

[night912]

No, it does not mean that. It means that God does not want to get everyone to believe in Him by using His omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that He exists.

God wants everyone to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice, not because God used His omnipotent power to make everyone believe in Him.

The fact that everyone will not choose to believe in God by virtue of their own free will is a moot point. God still wants that to happen.

In other words, God wants everyone to choose to believe in Him by virtue of their own power, using their free will to make that choice.

If god wants people to believe that he exist with their own free will, then logically, that means that he doesn't want everyone to believe. He wouldn't want those who were forced into believing to believe. It's not moot, because changing your proposition results in there being a contradiction.

In order to be logically valid, the premise in the OP must remain the same, therefore resulting in there being no atheists because god wants everyone to believe and know how to get everyone to believe while giving them the free will. If there are evidence that convinced them, they wouldn't be lacking any beliefs.

If God existed, and God is omnipotent (meaning that he could do anything not logically impossible), and if God is omniscient (meaning he would know how to get everyone to believe in him) and if God wants everyone to believe in him, and if God were to do what would be within his omnipotent power in order to prove to everyone that he exists, would there be any atheists?

 

[Trailblazer]

If god wants people to believe that he exist with their own free will, then logically, that means that he doesn't want everyone to believe. He wouldn't want those who were forced into believing to believe.

What I believe is that God wants everyone to believe in Him with their own free will, and that would be everyone if everyone chose to believe in God by their own free will.

It's not moot, because changing your proposition results in there being a contradiction.

In order to be logically valid, the premise in the OP must remain the same, therefore resulting in there being no atheists because god wants everyone to believe and know how to get everyone to believe while giving them the free will. If there are evidence that convinced them, they wouldn't be lacking any beliefs.

I am sorry for any confusion that might have taken place. The premise in the OP is a hypothetical and it is not my hypothetical. It was written by an atheist who believes that is what God should/would do if God existed. He told me just today that he is going to hold out for God to do this rather than looking at any alleged Messengers of God. I told him it is irrational to wait for God to do what God has had a chance to do but has never done since the dawn of human history. But he will wait.

Edited to add:

This is part of what this atheist said to me today:

Me: >>However, the issue is: God is not going to prove to everyone (and everyone would include atheists) that he exists...<<

Him: No proof every being forthcoming is exactly what to expect from an imaginary god.

Me: No proof to everyone being forthcoming is exactly what to expect from the real God, since the real God (if He exists) has never provided proof to everyone.

It is impossible that the real God would provide proof to everyone if He existed, since if the real God exists the real God has never provided proof to everyone. This is logic 101 stuff.

Him: But this is not necessarily what to expect from a real one who could prove he exists.

Me: It does not MATTER what a real God could do, it only matters what a real God does, if He exists. What we would expect a real God to do is what He has done over the millennia. Since the real God has never proven He exists to everyone, we can logically conclude that is not what the real God would do, if He existed.

All I can say right now is “help me God, help me Jesus.” I cannot reach this atheist with logic.

My husband does not understand why I am still posting to this atheist after six years and counting. I do not understand why either. Only God knows why.

I sure wish someone else would step in and try to reason with him, but it would have to be another atheist. I know other atheists have to see how illogical he is but all these years and nobody wants to get involved.