If God existed how could it be proven?

[McBell]

I guess you could not answer that.

Answer what?
Are you talking about:

Why would God need excuses? What did God do wrong? Who does God have to apologize to?
​

If so, I am wondering why you are the one listing excuses for god.
No idea why you went on to add the other two.
Perhaps you the one who thinks god did wrong?
Wait, it is you who thinks God did wrong:

I feel that God does some things wrong but I know that is irrational because I know that God cannot make mistakes. Since God is infallible God can never make any mistakes and that means that God can never need any excuses for what He does. I know there is nothing I can do to change what God does because God is all-powerful. That puts me in a kind of catch-22, not liking what God does but being unable to do anything about it.

So now the question is why you transferred it over to me...

To address your last one, I suspect that it is you who thinks god needs to apologize.
Cause being an atheist, I most certainly don't.

In fact, if God really is the God you claim God to be, why indeed would god need you to make excuses for him?

You believe that God needs excuses yet you cannot tell me why.

How in the world did you get the impression that I think god needs excuses?

You present a long list of excuses for God.
I point out that you presented a long list of excuses for God.
You ask why God would need excuses
I said why indeed, yet here we are.
Then you start up with what god is doing wrong and needing to apologize nonsense out of the clear blue.​

And here we are....

No worries, you are not the first atheist who thinks God needs excuses and none of the others could answer my questions either.

And here we see you running off into let field attributing to me a big steaming pile of bull **** I never imlpied, let alone said.
In fact it is the exact opposite of what I said.

So perhaps you should put the brakes on jumping to faulty conclusions and running off into left field with you assumptions tied to end of a pole flaming up like an epic case of hemorrhoids?

Yet they do since God is One.

I have absolutely no idea what you are going on about here....

 

[Trailblazer]

I am afraid you are going to need vastly more evidence than that.

The evidence is not in the claim or what they say, the evidence is in what they do, the fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

 

[viole]

The evidence is not in the claim or what they say, the evidence is in what they do, the fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

Can you show me one of those fruits that can only be explained by an encounter with the divine?

And, if that is really strong evidence, why do you think it is not messing up with our free will?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

If so, I am wondering why you are the one listing excuses for god.

I never listed any excuses for God.

Wait, it is you who thinks God did wrong:
So now the question is why you transferred it over to me...

So you don’t think that God ever did anything wrong, fine. Then why would God need me to make excuses for Him?

In fact, if God really is the God you claim God to be, why indeed would god need you to make excuses for him?

I am not making any excuses for God.

How in the world did you get the impression that I think god needs excuses?

You said: No offense, but this merely comes off as nothing more than you making excuses for God....
#93 Mestemia, Yesterday at 10:55 PM

If you think I am making excuses for God you must think God needs excuses.

Again you say I am presenting excuses for God so that must mean God did something wrong:

You present a long list of excuses for God.
I point out that you presented a long list of excuses for God.

I presented no excuses and I never said that God needs excuses. God needs no excuses for anything He does because God is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes.

 

[McBell]

If you think I am making excuses for God you must think God needs excuses.

How does that follow?
Your presenting excuses for god means YOU think god needs excuses.
My pointing it out in no way reveals my stance on the subject.

Again you say I am presenting excuses for God so that must mean God did something wrong:

Again, YOUR making excuses indicates that YOU think God did something.
And again, my pointing it out in no way reveals my stance on the topic.

I presented no excuses and I never said that God needs excuses. God needs no excuses for anything He does because God is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes.

then why this list of excuses:

God does care if you know that He exists but God does not want to convince anyone that He exists, God wants it to be a choice you make. In other words, God wants you to look at the evidence and convince yourself and then choose to believe.

God does know what it would take to convince each and every person that He exists because God is all-knowing.

The part that atheists miss is that God does not want to convince anyone that He exists.
Atheists want God to convince them that He exists but God does not want to do that and you cannot make an all-powerful God do anything that He does not want to do.

Also, God is not going to present a different kind of evidence to everyone, evidence that is tailor-made for them like a suit. God provides the same evidence for everyone. People that choose to believe it get their reward and people who don't choose to believe it don't get the reward.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

The punishment is not getting the reward you could have had in this life and in the next life. I know of no other punishment, but judging people is not my department. I believe that God will punish truly evil people, but not nonbelievers who led good lives. I also believe that God knows all our capacities so God does not expect the same from everyone because that would not be just.

 

[Trailblazer]

And if God does not present in the material realm, then the evidence can NEVER be firsthand like in the above paragraph about the dog! When the idea that God does not present in the realm of the material is assumed, then even a mythical creature is more likely to be found than God is in our world!

God manifested Himself in the material realm of existence every time He sent a Messenger as His Representative.
That is as close as you will ever get to firsthand because God is Spirit so God cannot "show up" and be seen in the material world.

 

[Trailblazer]

How does that follow?
Your presenting excuses for god means YOU think god needs excuses.
My pointing it out in no way reveals my stance on the subject.

Again, YOUR making excuses indicates that YOU think God did something.
And again, my pointing it out in no way reveals my stance on the topic.

then why this list of excuses:

I never presented ANY excuses for God. All I ever did was explain how God operates.

You think what I present are excuses because you think God needs excuses because you do not like how God operates.

Why not stop paying games?

 

[Trailblazer]

Absolute Proof is a very “strong word” …. But if you look at the cosmos with a telescope and you see a dust cloud organized such that they say “hey you guys from “religious forums” , I am God and I exist. That would be enough to convince any reasonable person.

How would you know it was God?

 

[Trailblazer]

He could come to earth, perform a few miracles, and even do something crazy like resurrecting in front of hundreds of people ………. O wait, he already did that

If he had done that how would that be proof to anyone except those who witnessed the miracles and the resurrection?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God is Spirit

All the religions are proof of God.

RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

The first link, the author is attempting to define god/spirit/breathe ...

1. God is spirit. There is no article in the Greek text before the word spirit, and that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word. Furthermore, the word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit!

If a spirit is god, it couldn't be the essence of it. One would have to define "it" to know what the essence is referring to or "of."

He's a living person? Is it a human being? What does person mean in this context....

2. He is alive. The very word spirit also means “breath,” and breath is the evidence of life. Throughout Scripture He is called the living God

When I think of spirit (technically) I think the breathe/vital force of life. The "umph" or life (rather than spirit) in us. A breathe.

But then it says its a living person.

That confuses me. Life can't be a living person. We "have" life therefore we are alive-we are living people until we die and the life in us leaves. Our "last breathe."

The author is all over the place... if I go through this with you, are you willing to hold a full conversation? It's an interesting link but I don't like cut offs.

The other one you'd have to summarize. I'm not familiar with Bahai point of view, so that's something you'd have to say in your own words.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm honestly asking-what-is god to you that you're asking whether it can be proven?

What exactly are we proving?

What is God to me? God in the Baháʼí Faith

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Many attribute these experiences to God, but how can they ever prove that it was because of God thye they changed?

Because, to them, god is a spirit/breathe/something "alive" in them and they receive this spirit from their god. God would be the source of their life/spirit--who they are and their experiences in that "breathe" or spirit.

Most I come across say it's love and the only way they can really explain it is through talking about jesus christ and his attributes.

I guess they know because life changing events they don't attribute to "earthly" things. I guess a six sense. I don't question it, though. People's life do change and I do see "life" in some people and if they call it god or from god, I can't say they are wrong in the aspect of the results.

As for proving the source, you'd have to explain what you mean. To me, it's like people are throwing around the word god as a label, they know what they are talking about to each other, but drop short when asked about it from someone not in the know.

 

[McBell]

I never presented ANY excuses for God.

Your list of excuses were presented in the post this post of yours is in reply to.

All I ever did was explain how God operates.

Your excusing your god through SoP does not change the excuses into not excuses.

You think what I present are excuses because you think God needs excuses because you do not like how God operates.

This is nothing more than you attempting to transfer your baggage to me.

Why not stop paying games?

I am not the one playing games.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What is God to me? God in the Baháʼí Faith

Your other link says god is a spirit... a breathe. It says "he" is alive, a person and he can communicate but this link says god is unknownable and transendent. Also bahai believe he can only be known through his manifestation.

How can a breathe/spirit be a person? (If he's not a being like casper, what exactly is he that can do these things and have a will etc?)

The first link, spirit is defined by Greeks, but Bahai doesn't originate from Greek culture (so far I know?)... so why would that word "breathe" be used to define the essence of god ... and breathe is not a being, so how can it be a person?

And since god is unknowable, how do we know it Is a person?

How can you give attributes to an unknowable thing?

Which also lies with how can one answer if there is proof for god when all we can do is repeat his attributes but not even Bahai know his unknownable nature.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that pretty much confirms what I said. If your hidden god's method of revealing himself is for a person to first be fortunate enough to read one religious text out of literally tens of thousands and then to also be fortunate enough to find a Bahai's who understands it enough to properly interpret it for them, it's pretty obvious that your god wants to remain hidden from the vast majority of people.

God does not want to remain hidden from the vast majority of people, as the vast majority of people have a religion and believe that God exists.

Regarding the Baha'i Faith, God does not want that to remain hidden, otherwise it would not have been revealed to Baha'u'llah, but after it was revealed the ball was out of God's court. It was then Baha'u'llah's job to garner a few followers who became Baha'is, and after Baha'u'llah died it was up the Baha'is to pass the message on to future generations. So, if it has remained hidden, it is not because God wants that, it is because it has not yet been made known to very many people. The same was true in the early days of all religions, only a few people recognized the Messenger of God.

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

Below are seven reasons why more people have not yet recognized Baha’u’llah.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

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I cannot say if God cares that the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small, because nobody knows what God cares about. I can only say that God does not need people to believe in His new religion because God has no needs. However, according to what Baha'u'llah wrote in the following passage, God knows that there will come a time when everyone will know about Baha’u'’llah and it is possible that God will have to intervene in order for that to be accomplished.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

 

[Trailblazer]

Your list of excuses were presented in the post this post of yours is in reply to.

Your excusing your god through SoP does not change the excuses into not excuses.

I never listed any excuses. I told you God needs no excuses because God is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes.

This is nothing more than you attempting to transfer your baggage to me.

I have no baggage because I do not believe that God needs any excuses. You are the one who believes that God needs excuses because God makes mistakes and you are transferring that baggage to me.

You believe that God needs excuses for how He operates so you are projecting your thoughts onto me.

I am not the one playing games.

You started playing the games when you first refused to answer the simple questions I asked you.

Why would God need excuses? What did God do wrong? Who does God have to apologize to?

You could have answered those simple questions but instead you obfuscated and deflected it back at me.
This is not my first rodeo. I know all the games atheists play to avoid answering questions and exposing how illogical they are.

God cannot need any excuses because God cannot make any mistakes. It would be more honest to say you just don't like what I am saying God does or you don't believe God does any such thing and leave it at that. Instead you say I am making excuses for God which is completely illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you believe Jesus existed here, and is a Messenger of God and was misrepresented in the Bible, but for some of his teachings, parables, Sermon on the Mount, etc..

I believe that Jesus was both represented and misrepresented in the New Testament. It is our job to determine which is which.

Noah's Ark didn't happen, and no one ever lived to be 800 years old. In Matthew 24:37-39 Jesus made a comparison of the end days to the days of Noah.

Jesus was an apocalyptic teacher according to Matthew.

I do not believe that Noah's Ark ever happened but I believe that there was a man called Noah and He was a Messenger of God.

When Jesus made a comparison of the end days to the days of Noah Jesus was spot on. That does not mean there was literally a flood and an Ark, the language is figurative to make a point. The flood represents what caught everyone unaware in the days of Noah and took them by surprise because they were busy eating and drinking. Jesus said "but as the days of Noah were" because the same thing happened when Christ returned in the person of Baha'u'llah. He came as a thief in the night as the Bible says.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you show me one of those fruits that can only be explained by an encounter with the divine?

That is not something that can be shown, it is our job to figure out if we believe He had an encounter with God by looking at all the evidence, including the fruits but not only the fruits.

And, if that is really strong evidence, why do you think it is not messing up with our free will?

Why would it mess with our free will? We can still choose to believe the evidence or not believe it.

 

[McBell]

I never listed any excuses. I told you God needs no excuses because God is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes.

I have no baggage because I do not believe that God needs any excuses. You are the one who believes that God needs excuses because God makes mistakes and you are transferring that baggage to me.

You believe that God needs excuses for how He operates so you are projecting your thoughts onto me.

You started playing the games when you first refused to answer the simple questions I asked you.

Why would God need excuses? What did God do wrong? Who does God have to apologize to?

You could have answered those simple questions but instead you obfuscated and deflected it back at me.
This is not my first rodeo. I know all the games atheists play to avoid answering questions and exposing how illogical they are.

God cannot need any excuses because God cannot make any mistakes. It would be more honest to say you just don't like what I am saying God does or you don't believe God does any such thing and leave it at that. Instead you say I am making excuses for God which is completely illogical.

How many times do I need to correct your blatantly false accusations before they are simply bold faced lies?

 

[Trailblazer]

Your other link says god is a spirit... a breathe. It says "he" is alive, a person and he can communicate but this link says god is unknownable and transendent. Also bahai believe he can only be known through his manifestation.

How can a breathe/spirit be a person? (If he's not a being like casper, what exactly is he that can do these things and have a will etc?)

This is from a Christian website:

"God also has the basic characteristics of personality—intellect, emotions, and will. He thinks, He feels, and He acts. And that is good news. Because He is a living person we can get to know Him personally and communicate with Him freely. If He were an inanimate object or an impersonal force there would be no hope of a personal relationship with Him." God is Spirit

Baha'is do not believe that we can get to know God personally and communicate with Him freely and we do not believe that we can have any direct personal relationship with God. We believe that the only way we can relate to God is through the Messenger of God.

And since god is unknowable, how do we know it Is a person?

Bahais do not believe that God is a person, that is a Christian belief.

"What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension."
God in the Baháʼí Faith

How can you give attributes to an unknowable thing?

Which also lies with how can one answer if there is proof for god when all we can do is repeat his attributes but not even Bahai know his unknownable nature.

We can never know the Essence (intrinsic nature) of God.
We can know the attributes of God because they are perfectly reflected in the Messengers of God. That is why Jesus said that the Father is in the Son.