If God created everything why didn't he create it perfect?

[Paraprakrti]

Why would there be predicaments in the first place if the world was perfect?

The world is perfect. The problem is that what you mean by "perfect" boils down to God being both absent and not absent at the same time and in the same sense.

I would wager that those that suggest we can't take shelter in the material nature, or those have have said similar things in this thread, are themselves well-fed. People take shelter in a material nature because they exist in a material world, with material hunger and material health.

Then I need to clarify. Because what I mean by not "taking shelter of the material nature" doesn't preclude basic sustenance requirements. It has to do with the nature of one's consciousness in those dealings. If I am well-fed but eat foodstuffs solely and primarily for the pleasure of my tongue and stomach, then I am subject to karmic reactions. If someone else is under-fed but is eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to God, then that person is acting on the spiritual platform, despite that the food, the tongue, the stomach, etc. are "material" in the basic sense of the word.

 

[Penumbra]

The world is perfect. The problem is that what you mean by "perfect" boils down to God being both absent and not absent at the same time and in the same sense.

I don't see how that's the case.

In this instance, I'm simply asking why, if there exists a perfect god, or the world is perfect, there exist predicaments. The concept that people exist in a state of ignorance, or bound by some material delusion leads to the question of why they are in this predicament to begin with.

Then I need to clarify. Because what I mean by not "taking shelter of the material nature" doesn't preclude basic sustenance requirements. It has to do with the nature of one's consciousness in those dealings. If I am well-fed but eat foodstuffs solely and primarily for the pleasure of my tongue and stomach, then I am subject to karmic reactions. If someone else is under-fed but is eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to God, then that person is acting on the spiritual platform, despite that the food, the tongue, the stomach, etc. are "material" in the basic sense of the word.

It sounds like you're talking about Karma Yoga, and I'm familiar with the idea.

But what I'm saying is, people suffer when their material needs are not met. Other animals do too. People suffer when they get extremely malnourished, or when they get brain parasites, or when they are tortured, or when they have debilitating illness.

 

[Koldo]

The only problem is, that illusion is characterized by you accepting responsibility for your actions by dint of your attachment to their fruits. This is the unspoken contract of material attachment. God is simply providing the facility.

An illusion, by itself, is fruitless.
The only fruits it may generate are within.
Have you ever watched 'Vanilla Sky'?

I am comparing the state of suffering to a dream in which there is a sense of suffering that, to a waking man, seems absurd. What does it mean to see one's own severed head mounted on a wall? If you are seeing it, then it isn't your head. So your distress in the dream is unfounded. We're currently in a situation likened to this dream analogy. Our suffering is real, so far as it persists. However, it only persists because we insist on it by identifying self with the material world and accepting the reactions of our actions as our own.

Actually, the result of what you are actually suggesting would be another illusion. We would just be reshaping the current illusion we live in. As long as our minds are inside the dream we can not live in the 'real' life. And it is impossible to wake up without getting untied from the dream world literally( which is the material world in this case ) , to say the least.

 

[Paraprakrti]

I don't see how that's the case.

In this instance, I'm simply asking why, if there exists a perfect god, or the world is perfect, there exist predicaments. The concept that people exist in a state of ignorance, or bound by some material delusion leads to the question of why they are in this predicament to begin with.

How does one begin to answer that question? If we are in a predicament because we have desired that which constitutes ignorance of self and its relationship to the Supreme, what more is there to explain?

It sounds like you're talking about Karma Yoga, and I'm familiar with the idea.

But what I'm saying is, people suffer when their material needs are not met. Other animals do too. People suffer when they get extremely malnourished, or when they get brain parasites, or when they are tortured, or when they have debilitating illness.

OK. I'm not sure what your point is here. Nothing I have said should indicate that only the well-nourished suffer the results of their actions.

 

[Paraprakrti]

An illusion, by itself, is fruitless.
The only fruits it may generate are within.

Yes. And what I am saying is that one remains entangled in that illusion so long as one remains attached to the fruits within.

Have you ever watched 'Vanilla Sky'?

Only the U.S. remake, but it's been a while.

Actually, the result of what you are actually suggesting would be another illusion. We would just be reshaping the current illusion we live in. As long as our minds are inside the dream we can not live in the 'real' life. And it is impossible to wake up without getting untied from the dream world literally( which is the material world in this case ) , to say the least.

You're just taking the analogy in a different direction than was originally intended. If you live in the so-called material world but you act on the spiritual platform (e.g. offering the results of work in devotion toward God) then you are in the spiritual world, for all intents and purposes, and, thus, you would not be likened to the dreaming man in that analogy.

 

[Koldo]

Yes. And what I am saying is that one remains entangled in that illusion so long as one remains attached to the fruits within.

I have to disagree.
If there is an illusion of reality it means we were attached to it before the fruits ( our fruits) even existed. The fruits are additional ties at most that make us remain connected to this illusion, but they are certainly not the only ones.

Only the U.S. remake, but it's been a while.

Me too. It is a great example as to how an illusion works.
No matter what actions are taken, there are not fruits, except for the ones within. Which is why i wanted to give this movie as an example.

You're just taking the analogy in a different direction than was originally intended. If you live in the so-called material world but you act on the spiritual platform (e.g. offering the results of work in devotion toward God) then you are in the spiritual world, for all intents and purposes, and, thus, you would not be likened to the dreaming man in that analogy.

I don't understand you.
I have been using the term 'illusion' to mean 'reality', or rather the 'material reality'. As long as you are attached to it, then you can not be out of the illusion.

Also, what you call spiritual platform is inside the 'material reality'. It is just a part of the illusion we live in.
Once you are inside an illusion it is impossible to discern what is real and what is not.

 

[Man of Faith]

God's power sustained life before the fall and will sustain it again on the new earth forever. No more death, no matter what the design.

 

[PolyHedral]

There is mechanism in the cell that deliberately causes death. (See lobsters) Without it, life would sustain itself perfectly well. Why is it there?

 

[Willamena]

I don't see how that's the case.

In this instance, I'm simply asking why, if there exists a perfect god, or the world is perfect, there exist predicaments. The concept that people exist in a state of ignorance, or bound by some material delusion leads to the question of why they are in this predicament to begin with.

Why wouldn't there exist predicaments? They can be perfect, too.

More significantly, why wouldn't there exist anything that currently exists?

 

[Willamena]

There is mechanism in the cell that deliberately causes death. (See lobsters) Without it, life would sustain itself perfectly well. Why is it there?

"It's a good day to die."

 

[lew0049]

I would have thought that whether or not “mortality is an illusion” that “each one of us creates our own realities”-to some/greater or lesser degree......no?

I have to disagree with you. If we essentially create our own realities then how can we condemn anyone for acts of evil? The millions of Jews that died because of Hitler couldn't be blamed on Hitler because Hitler was just a part of their reality. His actions couldn't be viewed as ethically wrong because that was the reality they decided.

 

[Willamena]

If there is an illusion of reality it means we were attached to it before the fruits ( our fruits) even existed.

Especially if the entanglement is real.

No matter what actions are taken, there are not fruits, except for the ones within.

"Within" what?

 

[Koldo]

"Within" what?

The "I".

 

[Paraprakrti]

I have to disagree.
If there is an illusion of reality it means we were attached to it before the fruits ( our fruits) even existed. The fruits are additional ties at most that make us remain connected to this illusion, but they are certainly not the only ones.

I never said the fruits weren't additional ties. My words were that so long as one remains attached to those fruits, one remains in material existence. So what I am saying doesn't necessarily disagree with you. Perhaps one is attached to the idea of the results of work prior to being attached to the results themselves.

I don't understand you.
I have been using the term 'illusion' to mean 'reality', or rather the 'material reality'. As long as you are attached to it, then you can not be out of the illusion.

Yes. And in so far as you are attached to it, that is the extent to which you are acting on the material platform. It isn't that one is necessarily in illusion simply for residing in the material world. One is in illusion when one proceeds as the enjoyer of material things.

Also, what you call spiritual platform is inside the 'material reality'. It is just a part of the illusion we live in.
Once you are inside an illusion it is impossible to discern what is real and what is not.

The material manifestation, per se, is not the illusion. The illusion is the symptom of the conditioned soul in the material world--namely, the propensity to seek material pleasure and claim the results of actions as one's own.

 

[Penumbra]

How does one begin to answer that question? If we are in a predicament because we have desired that which constitutes ignorance of self and its relationship to the Supreme, what more is there to explain?

OK. I'm not sure what your point is here. Nothing I have said should indicate that only the well-nourished suffer the results of their actions.

Why would anyone desire that?

There's something to explain because the concept of problems or predicaments existing alongside a perfect eternal god are not logically compatible unless the god desired it.

Why wouldn't there exist predicaments? They can be perfect, too.

They'd only be "perfect" if they were the most optimal way to achieve a higher purpose, rather than an accident or a natural problem that occurs.

More significantly, why wouldn't there exist anything that currently exists?

Because some stuff that exists is rather wretched. I've asked stuff like this a few times in this thread, but where do things like brain parasites, or brain tumors, or Alzheimer's disease fit into a perfect world?

 

[Willamena]

They'd only be "perfect" if they were the most optimal way to achieve a higher purpose, rather than an accident or a natural problem that occurs.

What definition of "perfect" are you going by? Because it seems to me that all that's required is that they be the best darned predicament they can be.

Because some stuff that exists is rather wretched. I've asked stuff like this a few times in this thread, but where do things like brain parasites, or brain tumors, or Alzheimer's disease fit into a perfect world?

It always boils down to, "Because I don't like it." Should "perfect" conform to our likes?

 

[Penumbra]

What definition of "perfect" are you going by? Because it seems to me that all that's required is that they be the best darned predicament they can be.

It always boils down to, "Because I don't like it." Should "perfect" conform to our likes?

Not necessarily, but shouldn't it conform to something meaningful?

The existence of those things go against the ideals and desires of most god concepts that are put forth.

 

[Willamena]

Not necessarily, but shouldn't it conform to something meaningful?

The existence of those things go against the ideals and desires of most god concepts that are put forth.

Nothing can compare, held to a standard of something it's not.

 

[Koldo]

I never said the fruits weren't additional ties. My words were that so long as one remains attached to those fruits, one remains in material existence. So what I am saying doesn't necessarily disagree with you. Perhaps one is attached to the idea of the results of work prior to being attached to the results themselves.



Yes. And in so far as you are attached to it, that is the extent to which you are acting on the material platform. It isn't that one is necessarily in illusion simply for residing in the material world. One is in illusion when one proceeds as the enjoyer of material things.



The material manifestation, per se, is not the illusion. The illusion is the symptom of the conditioned soul in the material world--namely, the propensity to seek material pleasure and claim the results of actions as one's own.

I feel like this conversation has lost focus then.

The flaws are seen in the material world as a whole and not just in what you regard as illusion.
And then the question remains unanswered, why isn't this a perfect world?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, you can argue that had the world not been created the way it was, with all of it's "faults," it probably wouldn't function at all. If there is birth but no death, there is massive over population. If things don't die the ground has no fertilization which means no planets = no food for herbivores = no food for carnivores.
My only beef with those who claim divine creation is the unwillingness to claim both the good and the bad.