If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you! I guess that is up to interpretation. A maid, or young woman, is usually of married age... and not yet married. Are I correct?

No, this is mistaken. Young women have babies all the time. Old women do not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hmmm... define maiden.

I found the verse I was thinking of. Here, an adulteress is called almah.

There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand: 19the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’almah][/b’almah]. 20This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

(Proverbs 30:18-20)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Such a simple statement opens up a field of discussion. Reading just the gospel of Mark we can take the adoptionist view. Just as Adam was a son of God so are we all. Jesus was chosen at his baptism to be "The beloved Son in whom I am well pleased", to be a figure to be emulated and later act as a substitutionary sacrifice. The later gospels present him as the "begotten son" even God himself. Early Christianity hotly debated whether Jesus was human or divine or both, and if both, how much human how much divine. Of course you have to buy into the whole mythology, which i don't, for it to be of anymore than academic interest.

Yes, Jesus, you, and everyone in existence is an expression of God, but speaking for myself, the realization of this unity is not yet, by not being realized, I mean that while God may be me, I am not God, not quite yet anyways.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Strong's Concordance
almah: a young woman, a virgin
Original Word: עַלְמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: almah
Phonetic Spelling: (al-maw')
Definition: a young woman, a virgin
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
fem. of elem
Definition
a young woman, a virgin
NASB Translation
girl (1), maid (1), maiden (1), maidens (3), virgin (1).

This is because Strong's is done by CHRISTIANS, who bring their bias in. In this case, Strong's is incorrect. I'm sorry, I know that must be hard to hear.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

the native language was Hebrew. I don't know whether they knew to read, though it is highly important to learn Tora. It may cost too much for a poor family

Although Hebrew was still used in religious settings, the common language on the streets of Judea in the first century was actually Aramaic, and had been so for quite some time.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Matthew would have used "virgin" imo maybe because the Septuagint used "virgin" in it's translation.
Also Matthew, as an apostles of Jesus, would have known that Mary had been a virgin.
Also since the child in Isa 9 is the Messiah (the one who will sit on the throne of David forever and who is called "Mighty God" also (Isa 9:6,7) and because that child is the same as the Isa 7:14 child, the Isa 7:14 child is seen as a reference to a sign of the Messiah and so a legitimate translation of "virgin" would be appropriate instead of the "young maiden" translation. (and I have heard that "almah" can be used for "virgin" depending on the context it is used in.

Let's assume for a moment that Isaiah 7:14 says virgin. It doesn't but for the sake of argument, we will temporarily assume it. This CANNOT be a sign. A sign is something you SEE, like the rainbow is a sign. A sign is not necessarily a miracle, like a rainbow is perfectly natural. We cannot see any conception, virgin or regular. Thus, it is not the sign.

You have to read the entire passage, and then the sign becomes clear. They were at that time surrounded by two armies of Syrians, led by two kings. The sign is that these Syrians would be defeated before the child weans. Nothing to do with any miracle, or virgin birth, or the messiah.

BTW, a much better translation of Isaiah 9:6 is "A wonderful counselor IS the mighty God." Note the linking verb. In Hebrew, they don't actually use linking verbs, but rather they are implied. For example, you can have a name like Dani-el which literally translates "God my judge." The linking verb is implied "God IS my judge." These sorts of names that make statements about God were very, very common.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As a Pharisee, I assume Paul knew how to speak and read the Hebrew language.

It is doubtful he was a Pharisee, but in any case, he never once quotes the Hebrew. Every single last quote is from the Septuagint. So it is very questionable whether he knew Hebrew.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

With a resurrected Jesus and the Messianic age extending from 2000 years ago till Jesus returns and finishes the job, it becomes less ridiculous.

You mean we are IN the messianic age? Please explain for me then, why the best known messianic prophecy has not yet occurred:

Isaiah 2:4
He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In the 1st century, there was only 1 church that was created by Jesus and the Apostles.

Hmmm, I tend to disagree with this. You really had two different schools of thought that were very disagreeable with each other. In Jerusalem under James you had the Nazarenes, all Jews, for whom believing in Jesus was a sect of Judaism. They were all "zealous for Torah," including continuing to sacrifice at the temple. Then you had the Gentile churches set up by Paul, whom he pretty much taught NOT to keep the law, degrading its worth.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

the 70 descendants and their families of Jacob that came to Egypt must have talked Hebrew (Rashi Genesis 42:23). later the people that came out of Egypt talked Hebrew because it was their tribal language and it was 80 years after Josef died. Skipping to the time we were occupied in our land, why would it matter when a foreign country ruled over us especially if there is a mitzvah to read the Torah which is written in the holy language?

Hebrew evolved out of Canaanite. As much as I enjoy the language, and appreciate its use in our religious services, there is nothing magical about Hebrew. It eventually was no longer used, and Aramaic became the common language of Judea. It was what we call a dead language. It was not until Zionists deliberately resurrected it that it once again became commonly used.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Was the temple at Jerusalem destroyed? Did GOD allow this to happen? What were the other reasons?

The holocaust happened. Did God allow it? Yes. Is that WHY it happened? No. It happened because of the evil in man's hearts.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Hello Rubi,

I would be delighted to have that conversation. I am old school and not too familiar as to how a forum works you might have to help me along.

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A carpenter from Nasreth/an-Nāṣira. (Sort of Nasirabad)

 

[Anthony H Miller]

Hello Rubi,

This is my second attempt to respond to your question. I am new to this forum and might need some time to get the hang of things.
I would be delighted to have that conversation with you.
Tony

 

[RestlessSoul]

Pilate ordered his execution because he claimed to be King of the Jews, which was treason. This charge against him was said to even be written down and nailed above him on the cross, so that everyone viewing would know his offense.

Pilate, whose first duty was to Rome, could find no fault with Jesus, but had him executed to placate Rome’s Judean subjects. A few decades later, all of Judea was in open revolt, and a few centuries later, Rome became the capital of Christianity in Europe. Howabout that for dramatic irony?

I think it’s fair to say that there were historical forces at work, over which neither Pilate not anybody else had the slightest control.

 

[Kenny]

If I am not mistaken, there is a place in the proverbs where the word almah (young woman) is used to describe an adultress.

I couldn’t find it… you will have to help me.

Look, young women have babies. Old women do not.

There is a difference between “virgin” and “young unmarried” vs “wife” and “young married"

That being said, Isaac was born to a 90 year old woman - but don’t tell her she is old.

 

[Kenny]

No, this is mistaken. Young women have babies all the time. Old women do not.

not when they are virgins unless a supernatural creation is performed by God’s Holy Spirit.

 

[Kenny]

I found the verse I was thinking of. Here, an adulteress is called almah.

There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand: 19the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’almah][/b’almah]. 20This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

(Proverbs 30:18-20)

Please note the context… the way of a man with a “young woman” - virgin where she ends up as an “adulterous woman”.

 

[Kenny]

This is because Strong's is done by CHRISTIANS, who bring their bias in. In this case, Strong's is incorrect. I'm sorry, I know that must be hard to hear.

I guess if one wants to have a reason, we can always find a reason that is good enough for one’s position.

How did you find the word in Prov 30?

 

[wellwisher]

Please note the context… the way of a man with a “young woman” - virgin where she ends up as an “adulterous woman”.

I believe the man and/or young woman have to be married to someone else. It was more common for a married man to go after a virgin, before she was wedded. Only one of the two had to be married.

But this can also occur if an Overlord, takes a new bride on her wedding day, before her husband. They are both married with the wife still a virgin and maiden, when defiled. I saw that scenario portrayed in the movie Brave Heart with Mel Gibson. It led to a war.

In the story of Mary Magellan, Jesus says you have had three husbands; of other women. Adultery adds a wild card that can become very disruptive to families and neighbors, and therefore had a strong social taboo; ripple effect was never justified.

Although, there was a gray area,, in times of war and conquest; beyond one's control and spoils of war. Although social judgements of another kind could emerge; half breed children could have a hard time or special protections by the conquerors.